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Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018


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3 hours ago, Chachie said:

 

Despite my liking the guy as a person, yours was a solid assessment. He doesn't seem to correct his mistakes.

Norv Turner was a nice guy who could design pass plays but his teams were always the same too. Mediocre.

 

(Sigh...)

 

I can only disagree here about Jay not correcting his mistakes. Because he did correct a lot of them.

Questionnable play calls? Every coaches has them. See Pete Caroll vs Bill Bellichick in the SB.

Game Management? Every coaches has this too. See Andy Reid.

 

Why does these two things are common throughout the league HC?

Because that's not an exact science and on each play you'll have two guys playing this game. One on O, one on D. And one will come out of the play as the winner. That's as simple as that.

 

But when it comes to the HC job, Jay has evolved a lot and made lots of corrections. Like being OC/HC/QB Coach the first year, to delegating the OC / QB Coach the next year, hiring position coaches, having some of the best around him like Tomsula or Callahan... Keeping the team together last year, when most coaches would have lost the team and throw in the towel after week 6 because of injuries... He did not.

 

1 hour ago, veteranskinsfan said:

There is a good column today by Jerry Brewer in the Washington Post and he addresses Gruden and how critical this year is for him.  A lot of times the Washington Post is not very good but I think Brewer gets it that 50% of fans like Gruden and 50% of fans think the head coach is a failure.  Check out the article if you have time.

 

You can find it here in BHRBN for those looking for:

 

9 minutes ago, Alexa said:

Does anyone remember the Saints game last year? This is why he'll never be a great or even really good coach. Can't call the correct play to get a half a yard, defensive breakdowns all over the place. A better coach wins that game. 

 

It's interesting why this game comes always down to this play. While the fact that our defense got nuked the last 5 minutes and couldn't hold is put in third or fourth place... That is really weird. There's more to this game than just this game... I mean, the first reason we lost this game is first and foremost because our D failed, then injuries didn't help as we also lost CT during this game and my reaction at this time was: "OK we're done". Our O wasn't the same after that.

There's definately more to this game than just this play. Ask SIP, he was at the game, he'll tell you :P

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On 8/31/2018 at 10:00 PM, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

I would cut Gruden some slack for 2014 given the RG3 fiasco and give him credit for righting the QB ship against FO opposition. 2015= NFC Champs, 2016 almost identical record to 2015 with a tie instead of a win (that last Giants game was an embarrassment of over confidence. I hope he learned from THAT). 2017 was injury riddled and ANOTHER QB controversy and OL decimation. We SHOULD have lost allot more games

 

Why people can't cut the guy some slack is beyond me....that and WHO would replace him???

 

I agree..his starting SLOW is getting to me. He better change that in 2018.

Its amazing how many excuses we make for failure.  

 

Cut him slack for 2014, Cut him slack for 2015, cut him slack for 2016, cut him slack for 2017.  Cut him slack every year, because despite being the head coach, its NEVER his fault, and its all just coincidences and stuff that I guess no other NFL team has to deal with.  Thats absurd.

 

And the idea that we couldnt get someone to replace him???? Seriously?  How many NFL coordinators are there?  How many former head coaches?  How many top college coaches?  The likes of Pederson, Dan Quinn, Sean McVey, Mike Zimmer, Kyle Shanahan all seem to be doing well.

On 8/31/2018 at 10:00 PM, Sandy Monk said:

 

Probably not that simple. F/O has to also assess what HC candidates may be better, and how well the team competed in their losses. We should easily see if Jay loses the team. I don't expect it. 

Quick, name 1 good NFL franchise who instead of firing a coach for only making the playoffs 1 time in 5 years, would assess "how well the team competed in their losses"? 

 

You cant.  Because they dont exist.  The only teams that would do that are terrible teams.

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11 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Its amazing how many excuses we make for failure.  

 

Cut him slack for 2014, Cut him slack for 2015, cut him slack for 2016, cut him slack for 2017.  Cut him slack every year, because despite being the head coach, its NEVER his fault, and its all just coincidences and stuff that I guess no other NFL team has to deal with.  Thats absurd.

 

And the idea that we couldnt get someone to replace him???? Seriously?  How many NFL coordinators are there?  How many former head coaches?  How many top college coaches?  The likes of Pederson, Dan Quinn, Sean McVey, Mike Zimmer, Kyle Shanahan all seem to be doing well.

Quick, name 1 good NFL franchise who instead of firing a coach for only making the playoffs 1 time in 5 years, would assess "how well the team competed in their losses"? 

 

You cant.  Because they dont exist.  The only teams that would do that are terrible teams.

We did it YOUR way for MOST of the Redskins history under Snyder and look at how your solution worked. THAT is absurb. Knee jerk reactions are an emotional response not an objective evaluation. All your "potential" coaches carry their own risk/reward. Gruden is GREAT at Offense and  and BAD at picking his supporting defensive cast aka Haslett, Smith. I am hoping he's developed in that area. I like Manusky..

 

I am giving him another year to see improvement...is that so absurd...geez

 

Make your case for his replacement..specifically who, and how long we should give him before you have another emotional peak???

 

image.png.b1a67314531dc705fd2681209cfd5f63.png

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17 hours ago, Peregrine said:

Its amazing how many excuses we make for failure.  

 

Cut him slack for 2014, Cut him slack for 2015, cut him slack for 2016, cut him slack for 2017.  Cut him slack every year, because despite being the head coach, its NEVER his fault, and its all just coincidences and stuff that I guess no other NFL team has to deal with.  Thats absurd.

“Cut him some slack for 2015” makes no sense, cause he gave us a division championship that season :) nobody is arguing to cut the guy some slack for that. And i don’t blame anyone for being mad about 2016, that week 17 loss was definitely inexcusable. 

 

2017 i think he did as good as he could do given how horrible the injuries were ??‍♂️ That’s about the only season bad season i can excuse him for. 

 

Lets hope he figures it all out this year, or else i won’t be mad to see him fired.

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It only took us all of one year to realize we made a mistake by not letting Jay go for McVay. A blind man could see that McVay was going to be a great coach but it seemed like everyones excuse was to give Jay more time or that McVay was too young position. We actually had two potentially great young coaches (Kyle Shanahan) that we let slip away for Jay. That's damning, McVay should have been our coach. I read an article on him and he has this incredible internal drive to become a great coach, he's constantly reading coaching books and the guy even studies coaches from other sports and observes their interviews. It's just a shame really that our front office is so blind. Prove me wrong Jay, I like you, but prove me wrong on your coaching ability. 

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On 9/5/2018 at 10:51 AM, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

We did it YOUR way for MOST of the Redskins history under Snyder and look at how your solution worked. THAT is absurb. Knee jerk reactions are an emotional response not an objective evaluation. All your "potential" coaches carry their own risk/reward. Gruden is GREAT at Offense and  and BAD at picking his supporting defensive cast aka Haslett, Smith. I am hoping he's developed in that area. I like Manusky..

 

I am giving him another year to see improvement...is that so absurd...geez

 

Make your case for his replacement..specifically who, and how long we should give him before you have another emotional peak???

 

image.png.b1a67314531dc705fd2681209cfd5f63.png

MY way?  Oh so now we lie about the way other people perceive things so we can built up a strawman and beat him down because thats easy?

 

Cute.

 

Every coach is a risk.  Saying you then dont chose a coach is just foolhardy.  You know who I wanted, when we were talking to Gruden in 2014?  Mike Zimmer.  Seems my way is pretty darn good.  I have been batting about 100% with coaching hire predictions, including defensive coordinators for the past decade.  The point of mine that you still wont touch because you know how true it is, is "name 1 good NFL franchise who instead of firing a coach for only making the playoffs 1 time in 5 years, would assess "how well the team competed in their losses"? ".

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On 9/5/2018 at 10:51 AM, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

We did it YOUR way for MOST of the Redskins history under Snyder and look at how your solution worked. THAT is absurb. Knee jerk reactions are an emotional response not an objective evaluation. All your "potential" coaches carry their own risk/reward. Gruden is GREAT at Offense and  and BAD at picking his supporting defensive cast aka Haslett, Smith. I am hoping he's developed in that area. I like Manusky..

 

I am giving him another year to see improvement...is that so absurd...geez

 

Make your case for his replacement..specifically who, and how long we should give him before you have another emotional peak???

 

image.png.b1a67314531dc705fd2681209cfd5f63.png

In 1980, few fans would have suggested Joe Gibbs to replace Pardee,  In fact, there was even a large contingent that did not want to fire Pardee and your question is pretty much the same one they asked.

 

If they had done it my way? Fire Turner after 1997, don't remember who remember who was available. Could have waited until 1999 and maybe attracted Gibbs at the time.

 

Failing that, I'd have not fired Marty after 2001. At worse, the SOS years would have been his.

 

SOS was an SOS.

 

Gibbs was OK but probably not the best alternative.

 

Given Zorn's 2009 performance was a fire.

 

Mikes last season was definitely a fire. He didn't even have a winner until year 3 and the team sucked in his fourth year.  Only a handful of successful coaches have even needed 4 years to build a non-expansion club into a consistent winner.

 

So far, Jay Gruden looks like Norv 2.0 at best.

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The 2017 injuries we sustained is no excuse. Jay is the HEAD coach, meaning he's also responsible for the conditioning staff... which happens to include:

 

16297246_jon-grudens-son-deuce-is-an_t93f804f1.jpg.dbfff4c73756a91fc4bf50f9a490c68f.jpg

 

Nephew Deuce Gruden.

 

Our team has been consistently been decimated by injuries during Jay's tenure. Instead of hooking up his family with jobs maybe Jay should bring in a quality conditioning staff that will keep our key players healthy  

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3 minutes ago, ShaunAlexanderSkinsYears said:

Yes he joined the Alpha Gruden's staff but just wait, I'd bet the farm that half of the Raiders key players go down with injuries by week 8

Yep. At mead he won’t be our problem this season ? the rest of the conditioning staff? We’ll see, i think they’re still just as bad 

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Im a Gruden supporter. I think he can offensively scheme and is one of the better offensive coaches. You know a coach has a good scheme when players can come and go but results stay positive. When injuries decimate a certain unit but the coach is able to scheme around it. Gruden can do that.

 

I wish he had found a rock solid D coordinator to be the ying to his yang.

 

Im starting to think Gruden is just a really good choice for OC but not HC. Hed be better off being a players coach at the OC level and let a more demanding persona be the HC. 

 

This year is his make or break year but I dont want him to go. I want him as our OC. Which he probably wouldnt take and it might be weird.

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6 hours ago, Peregrine said:

MY way?  Oh so now we lie about the way other people perceive things so we can built up a strawman and beat him down because thats easy?

 

Cute.

 

Every coach is a risk.  Saying you then dont chose a coach is just foolhardy.  You know who I wanted, when we were talking to Gruden in 2014?  Mike Zimmer.  Seems my way is pretty darn good.  I have been batting about 100% with coaching hire predictions, including defensive coordinators for the past decade.  The point of mine that you still wont touch because you know how true it is, is "name 1 good NFL franchise who instead of firing a coach for only making the playoffs 1 time in 5 years, would assess "how well the team competed in their losses"? ".

Andy Reid for his entire Eagles Career

Martin  Schottenheimer with KC

 

Good but not good enough..plenty of GOOD Coaches are recycled through the NFL

 

The question is absurd...every franchise evaluates " how well the team competed in their losses"? ". It's called Loosing or NOT loosing the team..if they fight hard for the coach and are simply out classed..the coach did his job. It's the FO that has to supply the talent NOT the coach..get real

 

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I think Gruden has done a very good job with the Skins.  It was a dumpster fired when he arrived.  The Griffin drama consumed 2014, Jay wasn't allowed to really coach until 2015 when he and SM convinced Snyder that Griffin was a bust and Kirk was the real NFL prospect.  He coached the Skins to a .500 record from 2015 to 2017 despite a poor beginning roster that was bereft of 3 1st round and a 2nd round pick. 

 

A competent team could have used those picks to staff good DL or OL, instead, the Skins got bupkis.  When considering Jay's tenure that must factor into the equation, he has had to coach a talent-starved team.  Then, of course, Gruden is laboring for an ownership and president that let Kirk Cousins, the best Redskins QB in 40 years, get away.  I don't really know how they screwed it up but it's on Snyder and his lackey Allen not Cousins or Gruden in my opinion.  I hope Alex Smith mitigates the damage but all of this must be factored in, Gruden is a good coach carrying an inept franchise.

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On 9/6/2018 at 2:32 PM, Cooleyfan1993 said:

“Cut him some slack for 2015” makes no sense, cause he gave us a division championship that season :) nobody is arguing to cut the guy some slack for that. And i don’t blame anyone for being mad about 2016, that week 17 loss was definitely inexcusable. 

 

2017 i think he did as good as he could do given how horrible the injuries were ??‍♂️ That’s about the only season bad season i can excuse him for. 

 

Lets hope he figures it all out this year, or else i won’t be mad to see him fired.

Sorry bro but winning the division by default in 2015 isn't credit to Jay Gruden as a coach.  When you win a division with a 9-7 record, you've had one win above that flat 8-8.  We all watched that season and I don't want to banter about it.  He's just not a good head coach.  He's a good Offensive Coordinator and has proven thats where he maxes out.  I'll eat my words and change my view if he wins more than 9 games.  Until then, he is what he is and not a 'Good' NFL Head Coach. 

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2 minutes ago, TheShredder said:

Sorry bro but winning the division by default in 2015 isn't credit to Jay Gruden as a coach.  When you win a division with a 9-7 record, you've had one win above that flat 8-8.  We all watched that season and I don't want to banter about it.  He's just not a good head coach.  He's a good Offensive Coordinator and has proven thats where he maxes out.  I'll eat my words and change my view if he wins more than 9 games.  Until then, he is what he is and not a 'Good' NFL Head Coach. 

So he doesn’t get any credit for coaching the team to 9 wins that year? ?  I didn’t say he was a “good nfl coach”. 2016 i agree he deserves the blame for not making the playoffs. At the same time, why can’t we all agree he had some part in getting us to the playoffs? That is all I’m saying. I dont think that’s unfair at all. 

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1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said:

I think Gruden has done a very good job with the Skins.  It was a dumpster fired when he arrived.  The Griffin drama consumed 2014, Jay wasn't allowed to really coach until 2015 when he and SM convinced Snyder that Griffin was a bust and Kirk was the real NFL prospect.  He coached the Skins to a .500 record from 2015 to 2017 despite a poor beginning roster that was bereft of 3 1st round and a 2nd round pick. 

 

A competent team could have used those picks to staff good DL or OL, instead, the Skins got bupkis.  When considering Jay's tenure that must factor into the equation, he has had to coach a talent-starved team.  Then, of course, Gruden is laboring for an ownership and president that let Kirk Cousins, the best Redskins QB in 40 years, get away.  I don't really know how they screwed it up but it's on Snyder and his lackey Allen not Cousins or Gruden in my opinion.  I hope Alex Smith mitigates the damage but all of this must be factored in, Gruden is a good coach carrying an inept franchise.

Yeah I don't agree with that assessment either.   I will agree with the ownership being negative influence and combined with Allen not being publicly liked nor deserving of it.  Cousins situation was handled poorly from the perspective that the Skins got played like a fiddle by Cousin's Agent.  They screwed that up.  However, they were renting for a reason and I get it.  Cousin's is a good starting NFL QB and I think we all know what he is and isn't.  However, this thread isn't about Cousins and the FO and excuses related to this...it's about is Jay Gruden a Good Head Coach and besides being liked by virtually everybody, he's not a good Head Coach.  The reasons have been listed and not arguable.   His flaws have remained uncorrected and after he's admitted them.  Not going to change my opinion about Jay Gruden until Jay Gruden fixes his own issues as a Head Coach.  

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1 hour ago, TheShredder said:

Yeah I don't agree with that assessment either.   I will agree with the ownership being negative influence and combined with Allen not being publicly liked nor deserving of it.  Cousins situation was handled poorly from the perspective that the Skins got played like a fiddle by Cousin's Agent.  They screwed that up.  However, they were renting for a reason and I get it.  Cousin's is a good starting NFL QB and I think we all know what he is and isn't.  However, this thread isn't about Cousins and the FO and excuses related to this...it's about is Jay Gruden a Good Head Coach and besides being liked by virtually everybody, he's not a good Head Coach.  The reasons have been listed and not arguable.   His flaws have remained uncorrected and after he's admitted them.  Not going to change my opinion about Jay Gruden until Jay Gruden fixes his own issues as a Head Coach.  

 

Listed and not arguable?  I got news for you evaluating a football coach is a highly subjective exercise so everything about Gruden's performance is arguable except his W/L record. I say once he was allowed to coach in 2015 he produced .500 results on a talent starved team which is good.  I think there is every reason to believe Gruden will have more success as the talent deficit is addressed.  You feel otherwise but these are just your feelings, your opinion not an irrefutable fact.

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1 minute ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Listed and not arguable?  I got news for you evaluating a football coach is a highly subjective exercise so everything about Gruden's performance is arguable except his W/L record. I say once he was allowed to coach in 2015 he produced .500 results on a talent starved team which is good.  I think there is every reason to believe Gruden will have more success as the talent deficit is addressed.  You feel otherwise but these are just your feelings, your opinion not an irrefutable fact.

I agree here.  Definitely my opinion.  I'll change my opinion when he doesn't do the same thing expecting better results.  Heading out, I'll check back later. Cheers

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On 9/6/2018 at 3:57 AM, Burgundy Yoda said:

It only took us all of one year to realize we made a mistake by not letting Jay go for McVay. A blind man could see that McVay was going to be a great coach but it seemed like everyones excuse was to give Jay more time or that McVay was too young position. We actually had two potentially great young coaches (Kyle Shanahan) that we let slip away for Jay. That's damning, McVay should have been our coach. I read an article on him and he has this incredible internal drive to become a great coach, he's constantly reading coaching books and the guy even studies coaches from other sports and observes their interviews. It's just a shame really that our front office is so blind. Prove me wrong Jay, I like you, but prove me wrong on your coaching ability. 

FYI--they still have to perform. YA..McVay did last year..now there is tape AND they mortgaged the farm in FA's so they should show this year. It will be interesting to see the records over 5 years as compared to Jay (McVay HAD an already STACKED Roster to start). Don't get me wrong...*I* wanted Kyle but given the crap fest over Mike, RG3 messed THAT up for US. McVay...ya bad timing but all HOF coaches were OC/DC at some point so we had a known HC in 3rd year..I'm glad they didn't pull another Snyder and cut Jay's legs off like the others...that showed Organizational growth for once and if it cost us McVay..I'm OK with that

11 hours ago, TheShredder said:

Sorry bro but winning the division by default in 2015 isn't credit to Jay Gruden as a coach.  When you win a division with a 9-7 record, you've had one win above that flat 8-8.  We all watched that season and I don't want to banter about it.  He's just not a good head coach.  He's a good Offensive Coordinator and has proven thats where he maxes out.  I'll eat my words and change my view if he wins more than 9 games.  Until then, he is what he is and not a 'Good' NFL Head Coach. 

So is Marv Lewis a bad HC? He hasn't won a playoff game either?

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10 hours ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

FYI--they still have to perform. YA..McVay did last year..now there is tape AND they mortgaged the farm in FA's so they should show this year. It will be interesting to see the records over 5 years as compared to Jay (McVay HAD an already STACKED Roster to start). Don't get me wrong...*I* wanted Kyle but given the crap fest over Mike, RG3 messed THAT up for US. McVay...ya bad timing but all HOF coaches were OC/DC at some point so we had a known HC in 3rd year..I'm glad they didn't pull another Snyder and cut Jay's legs off like the others...that showed Organizational growth for once and if it cost us McVay..I'm OK with that

I don't think Jay can maximize talent on a roster, and I believe both Kyle Shannahan and Sean McVay have that capability. I don't think it shows growth committing to an average to below average coach. Showing growth would have been going with the potentially great coach that rose through the ranks in his 20's, it will be another blunder in the Snyder era. You don't commit to 7-9 to 8-8, that is not acceptable and never should be. 

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I watched the first Skins Head Coach show of the year on Comcast this Sunday morning. Gruden said he knows he has a lot of detractors but he says that does not concern him.  With Allen and Williams in the front office he can just concentrate this year on football and not on politics within the Skins organization.  Also heard a quote from Snyder on Comcast the other night that he called Alex Smith a "breath of fresh air".   I listened to Gruden call out two plays when Larry Michael asked him to do it and this reminded me how the Head Coach has to have the right players to be truly successful.  Our Head Coach has to coach up those players who have the potential to be either good or great.  When they had the miked up segment you could hear Gruden talking to the players during practice and keeping them focused.  Still though, all these characteristics still do not guarantee a winning record.

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