Voice_of_Reason

Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

Recommended Posts

46 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Completely fair. There's also a recency effect at risk. If a QB misses a throw or a running back misses a hole or a wide receiver makes a bad decision on a choice route is that on the play caller or the play designer? Still... I have to imagine that the lack of receivers finding openings over the course of an entire season (under three different QBs) has to speak a failure in play design, player execution, and play calling.

 

Yeah, I'm sure they all contribute...my guess is that execution is the most common reason. I doubt that Gruden's play design has suddenly become ineffective. Granted, it's possible. But he was never successful here only because it was a new offense. He ran that offense for a few years in Cincy and in 2014 here. Then we have 3 straight years hearing about how WRs are frustrated with Cousins for leaving plays out on the field. I view it as very unlikely that suddenly he's been figured out or forgotten how to punch/counterpunch. Either way...who knows? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Yeah, I'm sure they all contribute...my guess is that execution is the most common reason. I doubt that Gruden's play design has suddenly become ineffective. Granted, it's possible. But he was never successful here only because it was a new offense. He ran that offense for a few years in Cincy and in 2014 here. Then we have 3 straight years hearing about how WRs are frustrated with Cousins for leaving plays out on the field. I view it as very unlikely that suddenly he's been figured out or forgotten how to punch/counterpunch. Either way...who knows? 

 

 

Or is it a case of the playmakers were able to seperate and CREATE those openings, and it wasnt necessairly the play design to begin with?  Something to chew on? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm likely reading way too much into just one sentence, but I saw something that seemed telling in an article about the team's defense:

 

https://www.richmond.com/sports/redskins/redskins-defensive-players-furious-with-coordinator-greg-manusky-after-loss/article_0a210a30-0640-11e9-92cf-e70822da52ed.html

 

Quote

“That’s what hurts the most - I feel like all these guys are putting it all on the line,” Gruden said. “It’s too bad they couldn’t get it done.”

I can't help but take that as him trying to distance himself from the team performing badly. Like he might be on the hotseat and trying to deflect the blame. I'm likely reading too much into it, but I can't help but hope it means he knows he's in line for the chopping block.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, NickyJ said:

I'm likely reading way too much into just one sentence, but I saw something that seemed telling in an article about the team's defense:

 

https://www.richmond.com/sports/redskins/redskins-defensive-players-furious-with-coordinator-greg-manusky-after-loss/article_0a210a30-0640-11e9-92cf-e70822da52ed.html

 

I can't help but take that as him trying to distance himself from the team performing badly. Like he might be on the hotseat and trying to deflect the blame. I'm likely reading too much into it, but I can't help but hope it means he knows he's in line for the chopping block.

 

Jay has been quick to take blame for not having them ready to play, I don't like anyone picking someone to blame when there's that many moving parts.  Only so much you can do with your 4th QB, sure , but he wasn't perfect, he played a hand in them losing, all the coaches did.

 

He's also defending his DC, which is a tough spot to be in, but a sound like someone who's trying to figure out what to admit to once that end of year review conversation happens.  How much can he keep blaming his DCs when he's the one picking them?  How much can he defend them when the players can't stand them?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Jay has been quick to take blame for not having them ready to play, I don't like anyone picking someone to blame when there's that many moving parts.  Only so much you can do with your 4th QB, sure , but he wasn't perfect, he played a hand in them losing, all the coaches did.

 

He's also defending his DC, which is a tough spot to be in, but a sound like someone who's trying to figure out what to admit to once that end of year review conversation happens.  How much can he keep blaming his DCs when he's the one picking them?  How much can he defend them when the players can't stand them?

My main thought is that he said "they couldn't get it done". On just about every postgame conference I can remember, Gruden would say "we couldn't get the job done". It's only a one word difference, but in my search for hope that things will change next season, it stands out that he didn't include himself with the rest of the team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

My main thought is that he said "they couldn't get it done". On just about every postgame conference I can remember, Gruden would say "we couldn't get the job done". It's only a one word difference, but in my search for hope that things will change next season, it stands out that he didn't include himself with the rest of the team.

CYA Mode, better believe it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Jay stays, Manusky needs to go and they need to go outside the organization to get a DC.

 

also, Cavanaugh needs to go.  He’s pointless.

 

Either promote Kevin O’Connel to OC, or hire another real OC who will call plays, and scheme both the run and pass games so they are coordinated with each other.  Right now they don’t compliment each other at all. 

 

Jay needs to manage the game and the team.  It’s ansolutel clear he can’t do that AND be the OC and play caller. 

 

I’m not in love with letting Jay hire his 4th DC.  But eh, since it appears as though he’s going to get to play out the injury excuse for a second straight year, might as well make some changes to do better.

 

My guess is there are exactly zero change to anything.  Bruce stays, Jay stays, Manusky, Cavanaugh, Callahan all stay, and they try it again one more time just to confirm they will get the same results.

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

If Jay stays, Manusky needs to go and they need to go outside the organization to get a DC.

 

also, Cavanaugh needs to go.  He’s pointless.

 

Either promote Kevin O’Connel to OC, or hire another real OC who will call plays, and scheme both the run and pass games so they are coordinated with each other.  Right now they don’t compliment each other at all. 

 

Jay needs to manage the game and the team.  It’s ansolutel clear he can’t do that AND be the OC and play caller. 

 

I’m not in love with letting Jay hire his 4th DC.  But eh, since it appears as though he’s going to get to play out the injury excuse for a second straight year, might as well make some changes to do better.

 

My guess is there are exactly zero change to anything.  Bruce stays, Jay stays, Manusky, Cavanaugh, Callahan all stay, and they try it again one more time just to confirm they will get the same results.

 

i just cant see this happening, with the attendance issues this year and bad publicity, coupled with smiths injury and the void of offensive talent we have, i cant believe they just trot the same staff out here again.  we need to draft a QB and move forward with the next wave, and jay isnt the guy for that job.  

 

and i 100% agree, jay hiring a 4th DC seems insane to me lol.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the best games I’ve witnessed Jay call. Feel for him.

 

Wondering if he was upset with himself on the 3rd down Interception call, as it was an aggressive call and put the game in Johnson’s hands. It was gutsy to go empty set in that situation, but man, Johnson displayed great composure all night, so I get that during course of game Jay probably gained confidence in his signal caller. 

 

Tough, tough... game man. Sucks! Did everything right until the end. 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Team made me proud today. We had no business being in that game but we were right there until the end. I've said that we should move on from Gruden, and that's still my belief, but I tip my hat to him on this one - this was a big game, and he did a great job making this team competitive despite being at a huge disadvantage.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

Or is it a case of the playmakers were able to seperate and CREATE those openings, and it wasnt necessairly the play design to begin with?  Something to chew on? 

 

It's possible, sure. But the fact that guys were open a lot AND he came here with the reputation for getting guys open, I think it's more likely that he has good play design. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

It's possible, sure. But the fact that guys were open a lot AND he came here with the reputation for getting guys open, I think it's more likely that he has good play design. 

 

 

I dont disagree, just looking at all options.  I think Gruden is very good at actual play design when hes got the weapons to fit what he wants to do.  I thinks his downfall is elsewhere

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People need to stop justifying Jay’s lack of success with injuries. Yeah, I know, we have about 87 players on IR, yada yada yada. But IMHO only about 5 of  those players were important first team players: Brandon Scherff, Guice, Richardson, maybe Dunbar. Smith was ok, and yes I know about the importance of losing a starting QB, but we are talking about a guy with 11 total TDs in about 10 games - as a QB.

 

Yes, I know that the IR list is long, but you can’t convince me that losing Lauvao or Robert Kelley or a practice squad guy like Kasanova McKinzy is a a big loss. 

 

I mean yeah, we got a problem with injuries, but you know who else has that problem? Every other team! And on the top of everything, if injuries are a problem year after year, at one point you have to put some blame on the coaching staff, right?

 

My problem with Gruden is not his playcalling, his philosophy or his character, it’s the fact that he doesn’t change and doesn’t improve. He’s average and he will stay average. There are two proofs for that:

 

1. He has and undisciplined team, both on and off the field. We are the most penalized team in the league. Our defensive captain also said “**** this team” to a fan, and was not punished for that. Also our defensive captain plays like crap.

 

2. Time management. Gruden been abysmal when it comes ti that. Yesterday, he called a timeout AGAIN to avoid a delay of game penalty. Well guess what, we had 20 seconds to try to come back because of that. With a timout, you get a full minute. 

 

My point is a - Gruden is not bad, he’a average and he will stay average. 

 

JAY GRUDEN IS A KIRK COUSINS OF COACHING!

Edited by RedskinsSerbia
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don’t hate Jay. I never really liked the hire in the first place but he’s pretty average 

 

my thing is that he’s been here 5 years and what exactly are we building to? Are any closer to competing than we were in 2013 right when he was about to be hired?? 

 

Are we just after mediocrity? 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

I don’t hate Jay. I never really liked the hire in the first place but he’s pretty average 

 

my thing is that he’s been here 5 years and what exactly are we building to? Are any closer to competing than we were in 2013 right when he was about to be hired?? 

 

Are we just after mediocrity? 

 

 

I like Jay.  I did say before the season though after 5 years if he doesn't make it regardless of circumstance, I'd get letting him go and starting with someone new.  I still feel that way.  The idea that he's an average coach rap, I get.  I disagree though with some where if you read the descriptions of all he does wrong -- comes off like we got a mess on our hands, and its Zorn 2.

 

Bullock's comment below is my main gripe with him, too.  It was ironically my #1 gripe with Shanny as well.  And Shanny did the same thing in Denver.  When Gibbs got hired for his 2nd stint he chased down the best d coordinator he could find -- and from what I recall he had zero connections to Gregg and the two if anything didn't have great personal chemistry.

 

Am getting a strong impression from what beat guys have said of late, Manusky is likely going.  If so, lets stop with hiring dudes who the HC's are most comfortable with and who they hit it off with personally first and foremost -- its not just Jay and Shanny who pull that card (or so it seems) but for me be nice to have a DC in the building for the first time since 2007 who is regarded as one of the better coordinators in the league.

 

I know Gregg wasn't loved by everyone on this board but I liked him.  Whether it was smoke or mirrors or not, Gregg has a big rep in this league for being one of the better tacticians.  We've not had a guy in that building since as for reputation.  And both Shanny and Jay have had shots to change that narrative.  Hopefully, that day is finally coming soon as to hiring a DC with a big rep.  And its not that I think any coordinator is magic -- talent is more important -- but I do think a guy who can scheme it up well can make the difference in tight games -- and we seem to be in tight games almost every week. 

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So listening to the 1:1 with JP Finlay and Jay. 

 

Highligts:

 

1. The reason they are where they are is because of the injuries.  Here’s a paraphrased quote “You saw the talent in training camp, Obviously. Then we were hit with a rash of injuries at critical positions and couldn’t overcome them.”

 

2. He’s not sounding like a guy who’s going to make a DC change.  He went on and on about how Manusky is the DC, watches more film than DJ, and DJ should be grateful because Manusky has coached him to the pro bowl alternate.

 

3 Asked if there was a place on the team next year for AP he said maybe, but a lot (including if he’s around) needs to be sorted out befor the roster.

 

4. He didn’t have a problem with the Norman response to being taunted, and said he wouldn’t want one if his players going across to taunt an opponent after a loss. (My editorial comment: I agree 100% with him on this)

 

5. If McCoy was ready he would start. He’s not.  

 

6. Likes what Josh Johnson did for the team, but didn’t sound like he was going to have JJ jump McCoy in the favorite child department any time soon.  

 

7. Said that there’s a good group of young guys who can win a lot of games and he’s happy about that.  

 

Hes a really likable guy.  Clearly my opinion is well known that he’s never going to cut it as a HC.  But he seems like a genuinely good guy who is trying his best but has no idea how to fix the problems he doesn’t even realize he is creating for himself. 

 

My only 2 other comments on this are his answer of the injuries being the reason the season turned south I s just loser woe-is-me bull**** and drives me crazy. Even if true, and it is somewhat true, I just don’t want the HC using that as an excuse because it lets everybody off the hook for bad play and bad coaching. 

 

And the “good young core” thing has been said since 2016 with no improvement in record.

 

Hes going to be the coach here next year.  I’ve made my peace with it.  I really hope he self scouts and realizes he needs to hire an OC to call plays and he needs desperately to pay attention to details.

 

I doubt they move on from Manusky.  I also doubt any other DC would come here and coach for a HC who’s entering year 6 having missed the playoffs 4 of 5 years and 3 in a row.  Even if they think Jay is a good coach, it’s just a bad situation.

 

The good candidates will know that the leash will be short just based on that.  Snyder or no, you can’t just go 4 or 5 years in a row to missing the playoffs and keep your job.  So any DC who came here would immediately be on the hot seat, because Jay will HAVE to win next year. I don’t think Snyder would be able to hold his patience through a 4th straight non-playoff season without making some changes.

 

I’ve said before that the one guy who’s out there who would be worth a shot as a DC who might be willing to take it would be Rex Ryan.  Dude shouldn’t be a head coach, but he’s a great DC, and might be willing to give it a go since he’s been out of coaching for a bit.  He’s a big personality, and I think that might be what this team needs, actually.  A guy with a great reputation as a defensive genius with a big personality.  It would be somewhat outside the box thinking, but better than bringing back the same old, same old.

 

Doubt it happens though. Or anything really happens, honestly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

My only 2 other comments on this are his answer of the injuries being the reason the season turned south I s just loser woe-is-me bull**** and drives me crazy. Even if true, and it is somewhat true, I just don’t want the HC using that as an excuse because it lets everybody off the hook for bad play and bad coaching. 

 

 

I doubt they move on from Manusky.  I also doubt any other DC would come here and coach for a HC who’s entering year 6 having missed the playoffs 4 of 5 years and 3 in a row.  Even if they think Jay is a good coach, it’s just a bad situation.

 

Nice summary, but a couple items I wanted to touch on...

 

Coaches have a lot of people listening when they speak and they are aware of it. There's always a better way to answer, but PART of the injury answer is to properly pay respect to the guys who got hurt. There are a lot of egos on a football team, so guys like Scherff, Smith, McCoy, Dunbar, Thompson, Reed, Crowder, etc. who missed time probably like to hear that they were missed. Again, that doesn't mean he can't also mention how it's no excuse or something. But it's another angle we rarely think about. 

 

Same idea around Manusky...just because Jay is defending his coach doesn't mean he won't replace him. Both things can be true: Manusky did some good things and helped Swearinger BUT he still didn't do enough good things to stick. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m fairly indifferent on Manusky, but...

 

Cons:  

Last year, the run D was horrid. 

This year, the run D was up and down.

This year, the secondary was the same - sort of boom or bust.  

D couldn’t come through in the clutch oftentimes.

 

Pros:

Last year, the secondary was pretty good. 

Pass rush was good both years.

Points per game went from 27th (24.2), to 14th (22.3)

Turnovers were good - 12th last year, 6th this year.  

Run D improved over last year.  

 

Bears mentioning that we had a lot of injuries last year, but were pretty healthy this year.  

 

So, it’s possible the improvements were a result of better health.  It’s also possible that adding Payne (and Settle) had a significant impact here.  Secondary looked worse, but we also lost Breeland and Fuller; Dunbar was out for a chunk of time, and we often relied on very young, fairly raw corners.  

 

The times the run D really struggled this year, it seemed to me that 1) the defense often struggled to stop the pass, 2) many of the bigger runs went away from the middle - in other words, the blame (personnel-wise) was more on the back 7.  I also have to wonder how Manusky’s play calling was affected by a desire to (try to) protect the young corners, particularly after they got chewed up by NO, ATL and TB.  

 

Overall point here, I’d be curious to see what this D looks like with better play from the back 7.  I liked seeing SDH out there; it would be fun to get a stud ILB to pair him with.  Foster is pretty good, but he’s got clear weaknesses.  I’d like him a lot as a backup (maybe even coming in situationally).  The corners are probably still going to be a question mark, but I imagine another offseason of experience/learning will help. 

 

My biggest concern is whether we see a change in the ‘clutch’ play.  I don’t know if Manusky can fix this (if he returns), but I have to wonder if improved personnel could help - an ILB stud, a speed rusher, perhaps a talented corner addition - and if that change could help the play calling.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Nice summary, but a couple items I wanted to touch on...

 

Coaches have a lot of people listening when they speak and they are aware of it. There's always a better way to answer, but PART of the injury answer is to properly pay respect to the guys who got hurt. There are a lot of egos on a football team, so guys like Scherff, Smith, McCoy, Dunbar, Thompson, Reed, Crowder, etc. who missed time probably like to hear that they were missed. Again, that doesn't mean he can't also mention how it's no excuse or something. But it's another angle we rarely think about. 

To be honest, I don't care about the egos or feelings of the guys who were hurt, or making them feel all warm and fuzzy that they were missed. 

 

As Bill Parcells said, "You are what your record says you are." 

 

I especially loath the injury excuse because apart from Smith, just about all of the guys who got hurt tend to get hurt.  Scherff was even hurt last year. So, it's on the coach and FO to make sure they have a plan for the guys who always get hurt getting hurt again.  And they compounded it by having their big off-season WR signing be a guy who has a history of getting hurt.  Who, predictably, got hurt.

 

When somebody asks a head coach how they went from 6-3 to 7-8, and the answer is "a rash of injuries at key positions and we couldn't over-come it" the next question has to be, what did you try to overcome it.  And with Jay, the answer is nothing, really.  The tried to get the replacements up to speed and do what we do.  That's a really bad plan, and a really bad excuse. Of course JP isn't going to ask that in a 1:1.  Because that would mean and end to the 1:1s.  However somebody SHOULD ask it.  

 

I'll give you one example from the game on Saturday.  After guard number 36 of the season went out, and that new guard number 37 came in, on a 3rd and 1, the play they called was a power running play right behind the new guy, who was a guy they just brought up from the practice squad, adn I believe playing his first NFL snap.  And they asked him to pull on a 3rd and 1 against the Tennessee front. 

 

That's the FIRST PLAY they called with a guy who's playing his first snap of professional football, I believe.  And, predictably, he gets BLOWN THE EFF UP.

 

That's on Jay Gruden 100% for complete and total lack of situational awareness.  He had his 3rd and 1 play, and it didn't matter that it made no sense in the world to run it, he was going to call it by God.  And when it doesn't work, the "explanation" is "we had a rash of injuries at critical positions and we couldn't overcome them."

 

Well, you didn't really even try, to be honest.  You tried to get guys up to speed to do what you do, but you didn't adapt the game plans at all, didn't try and figure out what they were better at, and more importantly, what they were terrible at, so you called things which had a better chance to succeed.

 

Another example was from the (I think) Giants game, when they had Ty and that other guy at guard, who are 2 big, huge mamoth guys, and they tried to have them pull and lead AP into the hole on a number of time, and because they are 1) new, 2) big and slow, and 3) had just started practicing this, they didn't get there and AP had a chest full of helmet on every run.  Why?  Why not at least attempt to adapt and run straight ahead with these guys and minimize what they don't do well?

 

Because Jay is a slave to his system, and he's absolutely incapable of making any adjustment. 

 

But then he's more than willing to blame injuries in open forum for a 1-5 stretch. 

 

Here's the thing: if we had tried to be smart about it, be creative, change things up and still gone 1-5, I would give him a complete and total pass.  Seriously.  I don't even know if they had been creative they could have stolen a few more wins with the situation they were in.  But what cheeses me off so incredibly is that we didn't try even a little bit.  Not a smidge.

 

Jay failed his players.  The players, except for when they quit during the Giant's game, came to play for Jay.  Jay and his staff didn't have anywhere near good enough plan to make them successful.  THAT is why I can't stand Jay as a HC.  I kidna also think that the players quit in the Giant game because they had no belief in Sanchez.  I also think Jay was very down after Colt got hurt, which didn't help either. 

 

The players deserve better than that.  They really played as well as they could have been expected on Sunday for Jay.  But he let them down in a lot of ways.  And has done so for about 5 years. 

 

28 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Same idea around Manusky...just because Jay is defending his coach doesn't mean he won't replace him. Both things can be true: Manusky did some good things and helped Swearinger BUT he still didn't do enough good things to stick. 

 

I'm not sure if you heard the interview, but the way he spoke, the forcefulness of the tone, etc. didn't sound at all like he was even remotely considering a change.  I could be wrong, but from the tone and the words, it certainly didn't come off like he was leaving open a possibity to make a change.

 

And as I outlined in another post, with Jay going into year 6 having missed the playoffs in the last 3 years, and 4 of 5, I'm not sure a high quality DC will want to come here knowing the coach HAS to be on the hot seat, because you can't keep missing the playoffs indefinitely and keep your job.  And why hitch your wagon to that situation unless you have no other options.  And if you have no other options, then maybe we don't want that person anyway.

 

 

9 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Need to change this to evaluating Jay Gruden in 2019 thread.

Once all is said and done, I will create a new Gruden 2019 thread. Unless somebody beats me to it.  Or I get banned from starting it. :)

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

I am not feeling too charitable towards Jay today so I'll lay out the red meat for his critics.  I feel like that guy above unless I learn about new details that haven't been revealed.   And if you guys listen to the interview, DJ delved much deeper than that tweets below

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many years is Gruden gonna get?   What's next year's excuse gonna be?  How many years can he get cut slack by Snyder for injuries killing the team?  Does he get a pass next year because of the QB situation?  I mean, if you draft a rookie, you gotta give him a chance to develop him, right?  Or are you gonna draft a kid, then make him learn a new offense two years in a row if you can Gruden next year.

 

Keeping Gruden and this staff intact is a complete and utter waste of time.  We are basically consigning 2019 into 8-8, 7-9, at best, if it's even that good a year. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.