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Voice_of_Reason

Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

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Has anyone heard of Any coaches out there that have the acumen of McVay or better. Does anyone believe McVay is the next J.Gibbs Bele?

I believe we lost a good one

. I apologize in advance if this is off topic.

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Jay's play calling, clock management, and decision making have all been suspect long before all the injuries. This is year five. Jay seems like a good dude, but it is time for a full rebuild and I don't have the confidence that he should be the coach to lead it.

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15 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't believe he's top 3 in the league. His value is very minimal. Nobody will give up much for him if anything. We'll have to cut him and we should but we won't because this team doesn't operate with any sort of foresight or outside the box creative thinking.

 

Trent is done as a premiere LT. At this point, he's only going to decline and become more injury prone. He is still a very good player, but the clock has started

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3 minutes ago, Capt'n Obvious said:

Jay's play calling, clock management, and decision making have all been suspect long before all the injuries. This is year five. Jay seems like a good dude, but it is time for a full rebuild and I don't have the confidence that he should be the coach to lead it.

That's part of the thing. It's year five, but has there been a single game this year where it didn't feel like year one?

 

I guess the special teams finally looks better except all the punt and kickoff returners seem under strict orders to fair catch or get the hell out of the way. By now, the absolute refusal to run any punts back has to be design, right?

2 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Trent is done as a premiere LT. At this point, he's only going to decline and become more injury prone. He is still a very good player, but the clock has started

I wonder if the same can be said for Kerrigan. Ryan has always been a high effort, high motor guy more than a premier talent,but he has been so much more effective. It's either scheme, an undisclosed injury, or the guy has fallen off a cliff.

12 minutes ago, brettstr said:

Has anyone heard of Any coaches out there that have the acumen of McVay or better. Does anyone believe McVay is the next J.Gibbs Bele?

I believe we lost a good one

. I apologize in advance if this is off topic.

I think all of us feel this way about McVay. He took a laughingstock team and turned them around in his rookie year and with the help of an open wallet seemingly has made the Rams a juggernaut in year 2. Meanwhile, the 'skins have declined appreciably on offense. Some of that, is the loss of Garcon and Jackson, and, of course, he who Allen can not pronounce, injuries, etc.

 

But I don't think we ought to pretend that the loss of the play caller was a big hit too.

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2 minutes ago, Burgold said:

That's part of the thing. It's year five, but has there been a single game this year where it didn't feel like year one?

 

I guess the special teams finally looks better except all the punt and kickoff returners seem under strict orders to fair catch or get the hell out of the way. By now, the absolute refusal to run any punts back has to be design, right?

 

 

Agreed on the year one feel. No complete games this year other than Arizona and they have a junior varsity high school offense. 

 

Tress has been the team MVP, and the punt coverage has been a lot better this year. I think the lack of punt returns has to do with the talent returning the punt. Stroman is terrible at it, Quinn looks like he could handle it, but he just wasn't healthy enough to get a decent sample size.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I wonder if the same can be said for Kerrigan. Ryan has always been a high effort, high motor guy more than a premier talent,but he has been so much more effective. It's either scheme, an undisclosed injury, or the guy has fallen off a cliff.

Sure Kerrigan started the year off poorly. But yesterday he recorded his 9th sack of the season. He has a chance to get 10+ sacks this season once again. He’s constantly been getting 10+ sacks a year for most of his career and that’s impressive (at least to me).

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20 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Sure Kerrigan started the year off poorly. But yesterday he recorded his 9th sack of the season. He has a chance to get 10+ sacks this season once again. He’s constantly been getting 10+ sacks a year for most of his career and that’s impressive (at least to me).

Huh? It sure doesn't feel like it. What an invisible near double digit sack effect.

 

Thanks for the correction

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Penalties, clock management, and play calling ain't changing under Gruden.  I was on the bandwagon to keep him.  Not anymore.  He needs to go.

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Just now, Burgold said:

Huh? It sure doesn't feel like it. What an invisible near double digit sack effect.

 

Thanks for the correction

I was Surprised too honestly when i saw the stat. I was thinking something like 5, maybe 6 sacks for him by now cause of the slow start.

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1 hour ago, SavetheSkins said:

Wow, front office apologists. What’s the Skins record during Bruce’s tenure?  58-82-1, 40% win percentage, unacceptable. 

Bruce’s gutless no show post Reuben Foster signing. No public comments or press conference. Throw Doug Williams under the bus. 

Bruce’s handling of Cousins contract debacle.  Have a good day Kurt. 

yeah, nice to meet ya.

"apologist" is a laugh.

 

for one, I don't care about the team's public relations. I really don't. i think the response any football team should have to anybody trying to make any PR stink is "shut up." i think fans who do are ridiculous. Fans crying over signing this guy or not calling that guy ..  they are who causes the embarrassments they force the team to go thru. If not for the wailing and crying there would be no need.

I'm discussing football, and only football. ****ing up on signing a franchise level QB,, most definitely. Trying to assuage hysterical social justice warriors.. who gives a ****? My main gripe with that is that they did. Best way to handle it in my opinion is not to hold any press conference.  "No comment" "Next Question" and "Shut the **** up"  is all i want them to say when they do something the ninnies don't like and catch PR heat for it.  

 

I'm fine if they fire Allen. I am fine if they fire Jay. But for football reasons. The rest is just nonsense. 

 

~Bang

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10 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

Penalties, clock management, and play calling ain't changing under Gruden.  I was on the bandwagon to keep him.  Not anymore.  He needs to go.

 

I reluctantly agree. But if Gruden goes and Allen is allowed to stick around then I will be as apathetic a fan as I have ever been. Didn't even watch yesterday's debacle as it is.

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1 hour ago, brettstr said:

Has anyone heard of Any coaches out there that have the acumen of McVay or better. Does anyone believe McVay is the next J.Gibbs Bele?

I believe we lost a good one

. I apologize in advance if this is off topic.

 

We never had a chance to keep him, since his promotion would mean Jay's dismissal and Sean wasn't going to do that to him.

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3 minutes ago, Bang said:

I'm fine if they fire Allen. I am fine if they fire Jay. But for football reasons. The rest is just nonsense. 

 

 

The problem with that is, the other stuff AFFECTS the level of football we see. They are not separate entities. The way any CEO or president operates affects everything that happens within a company, and a football team is no different. 

 

I agree with the idea that the team should not always be feeding into these PR debacles and SHOULD often just offer no comment. But the thing is, Bruce Allen should be the one DOING that, not sending out his coach and Doug Williams (who he knows is not suited to this kind of thing) to bear the brunt of the scrutiny. 

 

What is he? What does he do? What does his title even mean? No one knows. BEYOND his terrible football decisions as they play out on the field, he's shown himself to be a coward, someone totally willing to throw his subordinates under the bus, someone who's petty and pathetic when it comes to handling players and personnel leaving the team (Cousins, SM), and ALL of that affects everything else. 

 

 

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McVay is a positive..  we haven't had any sort of coaching tree develop from this team in forever. He's not the one who got away (that's Kyle Shanahan, IMO)..  he's one who grew and flew.

Congratulate him, and recognize it DOES reflect positively on the culture change we have had in the last few years. He's not the only one out there who has come off of our staff and is making some noise in the league.

It's hard to see through all of the chaos of the end of this season, but we are in a better spot than we were 4 or 5 years ago, IMO.

 

Overall i am for cleaning house. Maybe not the whole house,, i like Tomsula, i like Callahan.. but much of the rest of the house.

 

~Bang

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4 minutes ago, Bang said:

yeah, nice to meet ya.

"apologist" is a laugh.

 

for one, I don't care about the team's public relations. I really don't. i think the response any football team should have to anybody trying to make any PR stink is "shut up." i think fans who do are ridiculous. Fans crying over signing this guy or not calling that guy ..  they are who causes the embarrassments they force the team to go thru. If not for the wailing and crying there would be no need.

I'm discussing football, and only football. ****ing up on signing a franchise level QB,, most definitely. Trying to assuage hysterical social justice warriors.. who gives a ****? My main gripe with that is that they did. Best way to handle it in my opinion is not to hold any press conference.  "No comment" "Next Question" and "Shut the **** up"  is all i want them to say when they do something the ninnies don't like and catch PR heat for it.  

 

I'm fine if they fire Allen. I am fine if they fire Jay. But for football reasons. The rest is just nonsense. 

 

~Bang

 

 

In fairness bud, Bruce has to be evaluated based on non-football decisions because that's his job responsibility as team President. 

 

I do agree with you that important decision should not be made solely based on public outcry from your fanbase.  That's what reactive and insecure teams do... Obviously you reach a boiling point where it's effecting the business beyond the levels of risk you intend for, and a move has to be made... I feel like we've reached that point.  If Bruce was the driving force behind the team making money, so Dan wants to hold on, I get that, but we're past that point.  The football part is now effecting it, even further than the off the field stuff. 


I'm not insinuating that you're defending one way or the other, just elaborating on the point.... Us as fans should not be the primary factor behind any front office decisions, because fanbases can tend to be boisterous and generally on the crazy side of the emotional spectrum. 

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6 minutes ago, Dissident2 said:

 

The problem with that is, the other stuff AFFECTS the level of football we see. They are not separate entities. The way any CEO or president operates affects everything that happens within a company, and a football team is no different. 

 

I agree with the idea that the team should not always be feeding into these PR debacles and SHOULD often just offer no comment. But the thing is, Bruce Allen should be the one DOING that, not sending out his coach and Doug Williams (who he knows is not suited to this kind of thing) to bear the brunt of the scrutiny. 

 

What is he? What does he do? What does his title even mean? No one knows. BEYOND his terrible football decisions as they play out on the field, he's shown himself to be a coward, someone totally willing to throw his subordinates under the bus, someone who's petty and pathetic when it comes to handling players and personnel leaving the team (Cousins, SM), and ALL of that affects everything else. 

 

 

 

well, that goes back to what I say..  they reflect on the team's performance because the team allows it to be a distraction. 

I don't know what he does.. is he personnel>? Does the buck stop with him? I have no idea.

I'm fine with firing Allen. The place is on fire, someone has to accept responsibility. Many someones.


(However, i can't discuss it in the allen thread because i keep getting the malware warning when i try to pen the last page.)

 



OVC, those are entirely fair and good points, and i agree.

 

~Bang

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There's a pretty good Post article detailing why Allen should go. I think if nothing else, his going around the current, pretty good, scouting staff and front office, to make a trade for Alex Smith and sign Foster off waivers is pretty bad. Even more so, because Allen threw Williams under the bus when seemingly it was him making the move. Williams' position shouldn't be scapegoat.

 

But it's more than that. It's nine years of mostly losing with best record obtained was 9-7. It's questionable hires, drafts, trades, and making the same damn mistake with Alex Smith that we did under him with McNabb (and I'm not as negative on Smith as most.)

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I think this season has sold me in the Gruden must go camp, or at least i know what Gruden is. Apart from his offense and his practices, he had never had a good defense. I would like to chalk that up to his bad luck and things like injuries, but i just don't think he either cares or knows how to hire a good defensive coordinator. I'm all for giving guys a chance and the DC search had the appearance of the most thorough search we've had of any open position, but here we are again with the same problems. 

 

Add to that the complaints of a J Allen and DJ and it seems like the place is run like a country club more than an NFL franchise. 

 

I'll wish Gruden well, but i think it's time for something new here. 

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I still like Jay but frankly 5 years of this **** show has broken him.  I don't think he was ever going to be the next Gibbs but I think he could have succeeded at a better run organization and I hope he finds success at his next stop, still thinking that could be as the next HC of the Bengals. 

 

Whilst I have come around to the idea that it is time to move on from Jay and basically commit to a full rebuild, I am firmly in the camp that believes this will be totally pointless if Bruce Allen remains employed by the team.  I would prefer a new owner too but Dan probably has another 30 years in him and is never going to sell so I will stick to what is possible. 

 

Whilst I doubt we will get what we want the fact that Cincy has a clear need for a succession plan might make the timing right for Jay and the news yesterday that Oakland is going to blow up its front office at the end of the year makes me optimistic that Bruce also has an escape route and can be got rid of. 

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And on top of the issues I just raised I have several other questions like

 - why do we have SO MANY players who we don't play? (Dunn at G, Alexander at CB for so long, SDH at ILB for so long, Bibbs at RB (Mack for so many years), Harris at WR for so many years, now Monte at S, etc. Its obvious that the guys doing it aren't playing well, other guys are on our roster for a reason so why not play them? 

 - why do we run the "physical" scheme? It doesn't work, it has never worked with Gruden and so why are we so committed to it? Has he tried a zone system similar to Shanny's? 

 - What is our defensive scheme? Is it even still 3-4? Do we play man / zone? press? off? And do our players match that scheme? 

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I disagree that Trent Williams has declined. The issue with Trent is that he cares so much, his pride for and leadership and love for his teammates runs so deep that the man plays through pain whenever possible even when it comes at the expense of his athleticism.  When he is healthy he is still just as great as he ever was.

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I'm not sure why people assume the Raiders will bring in either Bruce or Jay. You don't hype up the locals of a new town by hiring losers and if any city knows losers it's Vegas.

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This is above Jay though there's no reason to bring him back. Bruce Allen needs to be fired - immediately. He should not even consider the idea he'll be back for 2019. 

 

The culture is toxic from top to bottom, and like the other DC dumpster fire, the Washington Wizards (nee Bullets) it starts at the top. Failure to build a winning culture, failure to hire the proper talent evaluators, failure to put together a coaching staff that has a chance at being more than 9-7.

 

Every minute Bruce is still on the job is an insult to the remaining fanbase, which is shrinking year by year like the polar ice caps. If Dan thinks the stranglehold the Redskins have had on this region for decades is unflappable, he is a fool. The 80s are long ago, everyone under 35 basically wakes up wondering why bother investing in this product. 

 

Bruce should be Vince McMahoned immediately and a proper team leader should be hired to find Jay Gruden's successor - because he is gone too. This is similar to the Giants game two years ago where we should have easily won and made the playoffs.

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17 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 - why do we run the "physical" scheme? It doesn't work, it has never worked with Gruden and so why are we so committed to it? Has he tried a zone system similar to Shanny's? 

 

They do try different stuff, like pulling a brand new 350lb guard.  Man, that was terrible.

 

I reckon the whole Callahan calls the run plays sometimes, but doesn’t others and so on and so forth, is a detriment to  having any identity running the football. That and the personnel.

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32 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

And on top of the issues I just raised I have several other questions like

 - why do we have SO MANY players who we don't play? (Dunn at G, Alexander at CB for so long, SDH at ILB for so long, Bibbs at RB (Mack for so many years), Harris at WR for so many years, now Monte at S, etc. Its obvious that the guys doing it aren't playing well, other guys are on our roster for a reason so why not play them? 

 - why do we run the "physical" scheme? It doesn't work, it has never worked with Gruden and so why are we so committed to it? Has he tried a zone system similar to Shanny's? 

 - What is our defensive scheme? Is it even still 3-4? Do we play man / zone? press? off? And do our players match that scheme? 

 

 

but we DON'T run a physical scheme.  We CLAIM to run a physical scheme, then we run out of shotgun and play the RPO game.  My eyeballs tell me that the majority of AP's successful run are not due to the scheme.  He's made A  LOT of plays on his own where the play got blown up on the interior and he's able to break contain.  Why are we running CT on 3rd and 2 if we're trying to be 'physically dominant?'  I get that CT had some success prior to that but those were generally not on obvious running downs.  Not when they're keyed.  I saw A COUPLE runs out of a standard single back formation yesterday, but why haven't we been doing that with more consistency all season long?  


A good coach makes smart decisions because it makes sense to them... not because they think they're smarter than everyone else.  PERSONALLY... I would have taken the safety down in our own end and punted it away.  Our offense is not in a good place and we had been doing enough on defense to keep the Giants from doing much at that point, and you CANNOT give up a TD to the defense there.  That is absolutely the WORST case scenario.  You wanna try to run it 3 times and possibly take a safety in the process?  You want to drop Sanchez straight back in shotgun an have him throw a leak to Davis (Like he did LAST week from the endzone) I'd even be on board with that... but RPO where you're carrying the end across your face with an IMMOBILE QB on your own 1 is just trying to be too damn cute for your own good and it's the most likely to backfire.  Hell, put Sanchez back there and roll him outside... if there's nothing there try to get to the edge, if it's a lost cause, take the 2 and put the MVP of the the team on the field to punt it away.  

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