Voice_of_Reason

Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

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8 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

 

Look fellas...I'm obviously going to have trouble winning this debate since "my" play-calling led to a 15-point loss. But, I just can't kill Gruden for coming into the game thinking we'd succeed through the air against the injured secondary. Then, as situations changed, it was even tougher to reset and start pounding the ball if that's not what you gamplanned. Also, when every single run but one went for 2 or fewer yards, how many times to try the same thing before you look to something else. Lastly, despite everything I just stated...they were basically 50/50 up until they fell behind by two scores. Nearly half of Sanchez's attempts came after we needed two scoring drives in the final quarter. 

 

So, no, I don't think anything from a play-calling perspective was egregious last night (other than that reverse play-call hahaha). Was it perfect? Hell no...but I think Gruden's play-calling was probably 8th on the list of things that cost us that game. But, I'll concede and say that you guys win. But it's a very tepid concession because I don't think 6-8 more AP runs changes that game at all (not that you're arguing that). 

 

Here is the deal. The OL situation effects both Sanchez and Peterson. It makes it harder for either player to be successful. We all understand that.

 

But, once again, I'll point to Gruden and his inability to adjust. When you have your backup QB go down, and you'r sending a guy that was on the streets a couple weeks ago, you simply MUST adjust for that. And I'll be blunt, Gruden is a idiot when it comes to adjustments, because he refused to make them. 3rd string QB in? Throw the ball...................alot.

 

And one thing we did know, is that Peterson COULD make chunk plays if we gave him a hole. Give him a shot, give him the touches, he will break a couple. You have to use your best guys, and Peterson is the only guy on offense that is any good right now...................and you basically bench him for a 3rd string, butt fumbling, on the streets 2 weeks ago guy.

 

This..............is.....................why Jay Gruden must go.

Edited by Morneblade
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4 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

easy bud, I said that within this game, we likely had very little 'plug and play' instances where running it clearly made more sense... the game plan from the start is where I have the issue.  Also the lack of adjustment when your starting QB did go down.  I did point out a few instances where I would have run it.. 2nd drive of the game... we ran a great play action on 1st down and hit doc for a chunk... the double reverse to Crowder should never have happened.. you mentioned getting a spark?  How about a 90 yard TD by your starting RB... we didnt run out of that formation a single time after that did we.... ?  No.  

 

WR screen to Doctson where Trent Williams is the lead blocker outside the hash marks... that makes more sense then a screen to Adrian Peterson who is averaging 11.1 yards per reception this season.  

 

I've said it a couple times now, you can do things within an offense to get more effective at running the ball, just because he has 5 carries for 5 yards, does that mean we shoudln't have handed him the ball on the 90yard TD?

 

ITs very hard to run a screen play when your OL is getting blown up at the line, screen plays start with guards and we are playing 2&3 string guards against one of the better DL in the league..........tell me some more!

 

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7 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

Needed to run the ball more, but also run out of different formations. That has also been a real issue for Gruden, his predicates his play calls with his personnel groups.

I don't disagree with this.

I have seen this discussed regularly for the past several years.

The comments during the 4th Q yesterday about play calling were Jay looks like he has given up.  Do you honestly believe if he had kept feeding AP, we wouldn't have seen the same criticisms and add in he is going to get AP hurt?

Jay deserves whatever criticism comes his way about play design, and I will agree.

When a team loses, every choice made was wrong.

 

When AS went down, and Sanchez was picked up, the consensus was if he came in, we were screwed and the season was over.

That has not changed, only now we get to call out all the additional bad decisions we see the coach make.

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Just now, hailmary said:

 

ITs very hard to run a screen play when your OL is getting blown up at the line, screen plays start with guards and we are playing 2&3 string guards against one of the better DL in the league..........tell me some more!

 

 

 

Actually it's even harder when you dont run it.  You're picking 1 suggestion I made to help get AP the ball and running with it.  I also said changing the formation to put Sanchez under center... which worked.  I'd like to see AP run to the flat more.  We tried it once and Sanchez put it at his feet... he had space in front of him.  I'd like to see AP in on passing downs, chipping, then releasing to the flat or on a curl route.  I'd like to see more zone runs outside via the toss to allow him to use his vision and not have to be jump cutting 3 yards behind the line when running out of shotgun.  I'd like a lot of schematic changes beyond just screens, all of which help a wounded O-line and unfamiliar QB... Jay puts in his plays and refuses to deviate regardless of the circumstances.  Jay called that game like McCoy was still in it which is a problem.  

 

We're not a passing team.  We don't have the pieces for it... we're a running team that was facing a team that was struggling to stop the run.  If you're that worried about our O-line, why would you game plan to have the QB exposed behind it? 

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31 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I don't want to gain minimal either... but the gameplan SHOULD have been set up to do more than that.  Screens, tosses, pitches.  Rub routes then releases to the flat.  Curl routes, anything to get the ball in his hands on high percentage plays.  When was the last TRUE screen we've seen go to AP?  The 60 yarder vs GB?  Why was he only on the field for 16 snaps?  There are ways to get him touches when he's getting stopped at the LOS... including shifting your formation from Shotgun to single back... and it turned into his CAREER LONG td.  Why do we have to be at our own 10 yard line to see that change in formation?  I actually saw Jeremy Sprinkle line up at FB yesterday... where the hell has that been all season?  All of Jay's time coaching here!? 

 Was it not the first play of the game we threw a swing pass to AP and he pulled up from tacking a hit is that the play calling you want for AP?

 

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1 minute ago, hailmary said:

 Was it not the first play of the game we threw a swing pass to AP and he pulled up from tacking a hit is that the play calling you want for AP?

 

 

 

I referenced it above, the ball was at his feet and it was called back because of a holding penalty on Trent

 

Edited by OVCChairman

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1 minute ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

Actually it's even harder when you dont run it.  You're picking 1 suggestion I made to help get AP the ball and running with it.  I also said changing the formation to put Sanchez under center... which worked.  I'd like to see AP run to the flat more.  We tried it once and Sanchez put it at his feet... he had space in front of him.  I'd like to see AP in on passing downs, chipping, then releasing to the flat or on a curl route.  I'd like to see more zone runs outside via the toss to allow him to use his vision and not have to be jump cutting 3 yards behind the line when running out of shotgun.  I'd like a lot of schematic changes beyond just screens, all of which help a wounded O-line and unfamiliar QB... Jay puts in his plays and refuses to deviate regardless of the circumstances.  Jay called that game like McCoy was still in it which is a problem.  

 

We're not a passing team.  We don't have the pieces for it... we're a running team that was facing a team that was struggling to stop the run.  If you're that worried about our O-line, why would you game plan to have the QB exposed behind it? 

I keep giving you REAL game examples my friend and you have not had any answers about these calls?

 

2 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I referenced it above, the ball was at his feet and it was called back because of a holding penalty on Trent

 

 

EXACTLY, execution or play calling?

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On 12/4/2018 at 12:27 PM, hailmary said:

I keep giving you REAL game examples my friend and you have not had any answers about these calls?

 

 

 

i've said it 4 or 5 times now... as this game went, there was little we could have done to force feed AP effectively... my point was the game plan as a whole.  You say 4/4 for 50 yards was the right call, but those are hollow stats.  1 completion was a dump off to Thompson on 3rd and 15.  1 completion was a WR screen for -1 yards.  1 completion (A VERY GOOD PLAYCALL, I agree) was a play action chunk play to Doctson, and the 4th was a dump to Crowder on 3rd and 30.  That's not a sustainable game plan, despite the fact that it was 4/4.  He also had 2 incompletions in there that were negated by penalties.  

 

 

1, literally 1 of those plays was effective, the others were 2 give up plays, and a terrible WR screen.  

 

1st & 10 at WSH 25

(7:31 - 1st) (Shotgun) C.McCoy pass incomplete short right to A.Peterson. PENALTY on WAS-T.Williams, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at WAS 25 - No Play.

.

 

3rd & 15 at WSH 20

(6:03 - 1st) (Shotgun) C.McCoy pass short right to C.Thompson to WAS 29 for 9 yards (F.Cox) [C.Long].

 

 

1st & 10 at WSH 29

(3:44 - 1st) C.McCoy pass deep left to J.Doctson ran ob at PHI 39 for 32 yards (C.Graham) [H.Ngata].

 

 

2nd & 10 at PHI 39

(2:53 - 1st) (No Huddle) C.McCoy pass short left to J.Doctson to PHI 40 for -1 yards (R.Douglas).

 

 

3rd & 11 at PHI 40

(2:16 - 1st) (Shotgun) C.McCoy pass incomplete short right to J.Crowder [F.Cox]. PENALTY on PHI-C.LeBlanc, Defensive Pass Interference, 13 yards, enforced at PHI 40 - No Play.

 

 

3rd & 20 at PHI 26

(14:58 - 2nd) (Shotgun) C.McCoy pass short left to C.Thompson to PHI 21 for 5 yards (F.Cox). PENALTY on WAS-T.Williams, Illegal Block Above the Waist, 10 yards, enforced at PHI 26 - No Play.

 

 

3rd & 30 at PHI 36

(14:31 - 2nd) (Shotgun) C.McCoy pass short middle to J.Crowder to PHI 26 for 10 yards (M.Jenkins). WAS-C.McCoy was injured during the play. His return is Questionable.

Edited by OVCChairman
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What can we really evaluate right now?

3rd string QB with a penchant for buttfumbles... 5th string G on the L...

D is getting gashed because O is not working at all and won't be working much.

 

Honestly, considering our situation we'de be lucky if we end up 6-10.

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You can't bash play calling when you have a 3rd string QB and 3rd string offensive linemen playing in week 13 on MNF, it doesn't matter what you call in this situation, you could be calling spider Y bananas to fans. Bottom line is that the Eagles only winning by 2 scores in this situation is an embarrassment to them. And might just say a little bit about the Coaching Staff getting these guys to play hard week in and week out regardless of the situation. But yes lets keep bashing Gruden for losing this game with Mark Sanchez at QB.

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1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I'm surprised that when we average 2 yards per carry we have people believing that doing that 3-4 times would result in MORE first downs. 

1

I agree with you, we had 13 runs for 14 yards and 1 run for 90 yards, I'm not sure what people are watching if they think this team could run the ball 24 times last night and move the chains while doing it, we only had 42 plays on offense.

 

In the 2nd half, we have 5 possessions, three were 3 and outs, one was 5 plays and the other was 6 plays.

 

Edited by JSSkinz
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22 minutes ago, dav87sc said:

I don't disagree with this.

I have seen this discussed regularly for the past several years.

The comments during the 4th Q yesterday about play calling were Jay looks like he has given up.  Do you honestly believe if he had kept feeding AP, we wouldn't have seen the same criticisms and add in he is going to get AP hurt?

Jay deserves whatever criticism comes his way about play design, and I will agree.

When a team loses, every choice made was wrong.

 

When AS went down, and Sanchez was picked up, the consensus was if he came in, we were screwed and the season was over.

That has not changed, only now we get to call out all the additional bad decisions we see the coach make.

 

First: No, I don't. You put the ball into the one guy on offense that is a weapon. He already had a 90 yard TD run. If you have some semblance of a QB, I get with trying to be balanced, but you're in there with a guy that was never that good, and was out of the league for a couple years and was on the streets 2 weeks ago. As for AP, getting hurt? He's a tough dude. He wanted the ****ing ball, he was yelling a Gruden for it. Give. Him. The. Damned. Ball.

 

15 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

Actually it's even harder when you dont run it.  You're picking 1 suggestion I made to help get AP the ball and running with it.  I also said changing the formation to put Sanchez under center... which worked.  I'd like to see AP run to the flat more.  We tried it once and Sanchez put it at his feet... he had space in front of him.  I'd like to see AP in on passing downs, chipping, then releasing to the flat or on a curl route.  I'd like to see more zone runs outside via the toss to allow him to use his vision and not have to be jump cutting 3 yards behind the line when running out of shotgun.  I'd like a lot of schematic changes beyond just screens, all of which help a wounded O-line and unfamiliar QB... Jay puts in his plays and refuses to deviate regardless of the circumstances.  Jay called that game like McCoy was still in it which is a problem.  

 

We're not a passing team.  We don't have the pieces for it... we're a running team that was facing a team that was struggling to stop the run.  If you're that worried about our O-line, why would you game plan to have the QB exposed behind it? 

 

All of this.

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2 minutes ago, hailmary said:

You can't bash play calling when you have a 3rd string QB and 3rd string offensive linemen playing in week 13 on MNF, it doesn't matter what you call in this situation, you could be calling spider Y bananas to fans. Bottom line is that the Eagles only winning by 2 scores in this situation is an embarrassment to them. And might just say a little bit about the Coaching Staff getting these guys to play hard week in and week out regardless of the situation. But yes lets keep bashing Gruden for losing this game with Mark Sanchez at QB.

 

 

I disagree bud, play calling given our circumstances is MORE important because you're clearly talent deficient.  Jay was likely coaching for his job last night, so if he went into it with the idea that "well we're screwed anyways" then I want him gone even more-so than I did before. 

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Im just legit tired of the status quo with him...him being so complacent bothers me! 

 

Joe barry, week after week getting gashed dashed and mashed...2 years of it. Same with haslett..and now manusky. 

 

like CAN YOU NOT SEE the game plan has failed over and over and over yet trotting out the same slow foster out there...putting brown and Kerrigan in coverage...ertz with a hundred receptions before half. Its week 13 and get routinely marched on like thats the purpose of defense. FIRE him and just show that you dont put up with that. Coaches across the league after serious underwhelming performances have been canned yet nothing will happen til the end.

 

 

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I have been a Redskins fan for a long time and I have seen the good and the bad of this team especially when they last won the Super Bowl. So when I see a guy like Jay Gruden as a head coach I see a bad Head Coach with bad assistant coaches at the skill positions. The only two good assistant coaches he has are the Oline, Special teams coach and a 50/50 Dline coach. All the rest of the coaches are garbage. He never adjusts or manages the clock well. He doesn't even have a hurry up or two minute offense. He has a Hall of Fame RB that he underutilizes and a passing game that hasn't even had a WR over a 100 yards in a game that I can remember. Sure we can say that this team has been destroyed by injuries but that goes back to the HC and his staff. Lack of preparation and conditioning are the cause of that. I could go on and on and on but the truth is in the results he has produced. He isn't a very good HC and he needs to be fired after the season.

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28 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I disagree bud, play calling given our circumstances is MORE important because you're clearly talent deficient.  Jay was likely coaching for his job last night, so if he went into it with the idea that "well we're screwed anyways" then I want him gone even more-so than I did before. 

I would say I agree with your assumption about playcalling and talent.

 

But we're so far down talent deficiency that it's not even fun anymore. At some point, you also have to call plays that players can execute. Because otherwise it's a sure failure.

 

There's not much that can saves us now.

6-10 here we comes.

 

If somehow Jay manage to get a few wins with Sanchez and our injuries and get into the Paloffs, I'd rather say he should be considered for COTY, and would probably deserve a SB trophy...

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Gruden is clueless once the game gets going. He has no idea how to adjust in a positive manner during the game. I'd also add that we almost always appear under prepared. 

 

As for some of that playcalling, whether he had deferred duties or not, gave me Zorn flashbacks. Just awful. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

 Jay called that game like McCoy was still in it which is a problem.  

 

 

 

From my understanding "Jay" didn't call the game once Colt left, QB coach, Cavanaugh did using a small play book designed with MS in case of an emergency. With ZERO reps with the offense as well because Colt was in his 1st week with the starters! 

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35 minutes ago, hailmary said:

 

From my understanding "Jay" didn't call the game once Colt left, QB coach, Cavanaugh did using a small play book designed with MS in case of an emergency. With ZERO reps with the offense as well because Colt was in his 1st week with the starters! 

 

 

I'm sorry, but we'll never see eye to eye on this weeks game plan.  The game likely was not going to be won, I will freely admit that, but I just cannot say that Jay couldn't have called a much better game.  My complaint is adaptation, he doesn't have it.  If I'm in his position, my game plan looks very different than what we saw last night.  I may be wrong too, who knows, but it was not a very intelligent choice... not one that gives me any level of confidence going forward...

 

 

I also pointed out all of Colt's pass attempts to address the notion that Jay's game plan was being effective and had Colt going 4 for 4, when that in fact was not any real vindication of what we were attempting to do.  

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I can't believe people are arguing about the playcalling last night.  When Colt went down, so did the rest of the season.  The multiple injuries to the OL and QB positions are unfortunate, but not Gruden's fault.  The only race we're in now is with the Giants for last place.  If we can poach a QB off someone's practice squad and give him some snaps, that would at least be a step in having a young backup QB for next year.  Pretty much everything else is just because we have an obligation to play all of the games.

 

Whether Gruden gets fired or not really doesn't move me one way or the other.  He's an average coach with an average team having average results. His replacement, if he gets fired, will probably be average as well.  I don't know why anyone would want to be a head coach here if they could go somewhere else.

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Good job answering the Kaepernick questions in his presser, seriously.  They're basically loaded questions to make us look even worse, but we're no more obligated than anyone else to feel like we should sign him, even with the QB injuries.  We all know why those questions are being asked, and Jay gave an answer that made sense.  Three times.  Please stop pressuring us guys, we've got enough to deal with.

 

Like injuries.  Good lord, Jay must have had a nervous grin while rattling off those injuries.  And casually explaining how to move around the o line on top of the QB problem  like its "just football".  Nah, our situation is unusual and almost impossible to overcome.  So props to Jay for handling it media wise, and giving a sensical approach to the situation.

 

But that's where my Jay praise ends.  Now, what is this about the QB coach calling plays?  Whatever, I dont care who it is, I dont care how injured the team is, the offense isn't just bad because we're hurt, it's bad because it barely even tries.  He mentions Peterson didn't get a lot of touches because the run wasnt working and the 2 minute deal is Thompsons job.  Ok, then why didn't you do something else.  TRY something else. Oh, he did a couple ridiculous, embarrassing, swinging gate level stupid trick plays.  That was it for me.  Get someone else calling these plays.  We are in love with the wide open wr 5 yards underneath, which is exactly what the opposing defense wants us to do which they will tackle which will lead the drive into a punt because we dont do ANYTHING ELSE.  Game after game.  That has to change.  Drop back and launch the ****ing football down the field.  They tried it ONCE to docston last night and that was probably Sanchez going off script and good for him.  He's been on normal football teams.  He probably got scolded for it.  We are scared to play aggressively.  I'm done.  If it means firing jay so be it.  

 

Some fans admitted it weeks ago and it's about time Jay does as well: that winning streak, that "winning formula" of defense and running was ****ing luck.  The only thing Alex Smith did (love ya buddy, hope you get healthy quick) was not turn the ball over.  He didn't do anything.  The team basically won without a QB.  They won with a robot at QB programmed to not take chances.  What better reason do we need now, on our THIRD QB to take some dang chances.  Jay is STILL talking about how Sanchez should protect the ball better....WHO THE HELL CARES?  Go out fighting damnit.  Save me with this "we're still in it" bull****.  It's true we are, but the only way we're winning anything for the rest of the season is a bunch of low percentage passes that land in our favor.  Maybe some PIs are called maybe we actually score some ****ing points.  This "play defense and run the ball" thing is done, Jay even said it was done, that was his explanation for APs lack of touches, so why in the hell do you keep trying it????  

 

Watching last night's offense was it for me.  That one shot to docston gave me hope that "screw it were goin out swinging".  But no, we didn't, and Jay makes it sound as if we're going to stay with this horribly boring approach on offense.  "We have weapons"....YOU DONT USE THEM.  Unless crowder is wide open on a cross or reed jukes a guy we just refuse to throw the ball to anyone.  I think Jay instilled that line of thinking and it's just not going to work and it just has to change.

 

If we are still in contention then we have to change our approach offensively.  We're a wild card(no pun intended) with our injuries and we should be coming out with something different, and I don't mean dumbass trick plays.  I dont think we will change offensively,  and I dont want to see it again next year.

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3 hours ago, theTruthTeller said:

I can't believe people are arguing about the playcalling last night.  When Colt went down, so did the rest of the season. 

It's not just last night though.  We didn't complain when we had a boring offense and were winning, but let's be honest, we were all a bit worried.  The Alex Smith thing was working....somehow.

 

Now we have no excuse, we have to change and we just dont.  I understand it's difficult to put a new guy in and change your entire philosophy but we have to try.  The alternative is a guaranteed loss.  Trying to do what we were doing with different players in a situation that was lucky to succeed in the first place.  Its gonna be a loss.

 

Throw contested balls.  That's all I ask.  See if our guy comes down with it.  Maybe there's a PI, they call them all the time these days.  I've watched enough, we just won't even try, its uninspiring and that's on playcalling.

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8 hours ago, hailmary said:

You can't bash play calling when you have a 3rd string QB and 3rd string offensive linemen playing in week 13 on MNF, it doesn't matter what you call in this situation, you could be calling spider Y bananas to fans. Bottom line is that the Eagles only winning by 2 scores in this situation is an embarrassment to them. And might just say a little bit about the Coaching Staff getting these guys to play hard week in and week out regardless of the situation. But yes lets keep bashing Gruden for losing this game with Mark Sanchez at QB.

 

I can forgive Jay for opting not to run at the eagles defensive strength and trying to attack its weekness, He is an average to slightly above average coach (which i’ll take). We have got a terrible front office though and they have no excuses to hide behind. 

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