Voice_of_Reason

Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

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4 minutes ago, MartinC said:

When your starting your 2nd string QB and end up going most of the game with a 3rd string you picked up off the street two weeks ago and who has not taken a snap in practice. Meanwhile you have a future Hall of Fame running back. That game planning/play calling is inexcusable and asinine.

 

This was no. 1 of my 4 or 5 major issues with Gruden last night.  

 

The others were

 

2.  Why on earth are we dropping Sanchez back on a 7 step drop on his 2nd drive behind a broken O-line?  We run shotgun the overwhelming majority of the time, yet on 3rd and long we put Sanchez of all people under center?  If i'm remembering correctly, the interior got blown up and Sanchez got sacked. 

 

3.  We have CT back and we run how many screen passes?  Philly watched us fall all over ourselves on screens so they kept running them.  We run A screen on 3rd and 15. 

 

4.  1st and 10 and we play action fake to Doctson for 32 yards.  We then go as vanilla as you can get resulting in a FG.

 

5.  2:40 to go in the half... we are lined up to punt and we snap the ball with :15 to go on the playclock.  Why are we not draining as much time off the clock as possible?  Clock management once again.... 

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1 minute ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

5.  2:40 to go in the half... we are lined up to punt and we snap the ball with :15 to go on the playclock.  Why are we not draining as much time off the clock as possible?  Clock management once again.... 

 

Yep. 

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I am fine with Gruden being let go...but it better come as a result of changes above him. Otherwise it's pointless. 

 

Unless BA is gone the chances of upgrading are slim to none.  Even if BA goes I fear that any credentialed coach would think twice about working for Snyder.  Jay got the job and keeps the job because no one better would take the job.  How do I know that?  They couldn't even attract a decent DC. 

 

I think the only coach who could put Danny in a high chair and keep him in his box would be Belichick.  He and Kraft seemed to have some friction between them.  And the D-Line has some really good talent that may intrigue the Hoodie.  That would be my dream hire.  But, more than likely, we'll have to throw a boat load of money to some big name like Cowher who will sell tix but won't win a lot of games. 

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1 minute ago, MartinC said:

 

Yep. 

 

 

 

What I dont understand is why us minions sitting at home and talking on message boards can see the basics of it, but he doesn't.  He's a calm guy but he's either completely naive or overwhelmingly arrogant to the point that he thinks he's smarter than anyone else and no matter what he does it's supposed to work.  There's ZERO adaptation or flexibility.  He's completely lacking in development as a coach.  We're seeing the same things we've seen his entire career.  It's like a QB who can't develop or mature as a player.  He is what he his and we will win his way or we wont win regardless of the circumstances. 

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Jay needs to go.

1. His game planning is bad, and he doesn't make adjustments

2. We need a actual leader. What is coming out of Redskins Park about "focus" is disturbing. You need someone that will crack the whip.

3. Bad play caller

4. No attention to detail. So many minor errors.

 

Jay seems like a nice guy, and can put together good plays. But he doesn't call them well, doesn't command respect, and is not detail oriented. Probably best as a OC, but does not have what it takes to be a HC.

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3 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

Jay needs to go.

1. His game planning is bad, and he doesn't make adjustments

2. We need a actual leader. What is coming out of Redskins Park about "focus" is disturbing. You need someone that will crack the whip.

3. Bad play caller

4. No attention to detail. So many minor errors.

 

Jay seems like a nice guy, and can put together good plays. But he doesn't call them well, doesn't command respect, and is not detail oriented. Probably best as a OC, but does not have what it takes to be a HC.

 

I think on the broadcast last night Witten said that during the Saints blowout game, Norman was sitting there with headphones on while Jay was trying to talk to the team at the half in the locker room. Really??? WTF?!?

 

1 minute ago, lavar1156 said:

In fairness to Jay we have zero talent at WR. Remember the offense with Garcon and Djax?

 

Doctson has been looking better - he just doesn't have good QB play.

Edited by bird_1972
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2 minutes ago, lavar1156 said:

In fairness to Jay we have zero talent at WR. Remember the offense with Garcon and Djax?

 

Doctson has actually developed this season. He’s played well the last few weeks. Not saying he’s the next Art Monk here, but he’s shown he can be a decent #2 type. 

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44 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Except the Caps were the East’s top team twice under Bruce and won a Presidents Cup in 2010 while winning their division every year. They were a dominant team every year up until he was fired mid season in 2011,

 

You’d have to play Madden for Gruden to approach that 

 

Hockey isn’t important in this debate tho. Gruden is done. He’s had 5 years. 

Which is why I called him a poor man's Boudreau.

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1 minute ago, MartinC said:

 

Doctson has actually developed this season. He’s played well the last few weeks. Not saying he’s the next Art Monk here, but he’s shown he can be a decent #2 type. 

 

Really debatable. How often does the dude get over 50 yards? A #2 is a stretch. He's 26 friggin years old now.

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What confused me watching last night play out is that Sanchez comes into the game, the AP run happens, then the following drive to close the half, Sanchez actually does a decent job passing the ball and getting the team in position for that FG.   I am not sure if O'Connell had a handful of pre-scripted plays for Sanchez to call and they exhausted all of them on that drive, but he looked pretty decent, and that included that long pass to Doctson that wasn't off by much.

 

The entire rest of the game not one pass downfield.  I understand the QB is new to everything, but I still think there are plenty of "common plays" that you could run with just about any QB where you send players on routes and try to make some plays.  The entire rest of the game it looked more like Gruden was simply trying to bleed the clock and get out of Philadelphia, than trying to win the game. 

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2 minutes ago, lavar1156 said:

 

Really debatable. How often does the dude get over 50 yards? A #2 is a stretch. He's 26 friggin years old now.

 

Everything is debatable. He’s going to end up with 50/55 catches for 500-600 yards. Not record breaking by any stretch but he’s shown progress every season statistically and I really think in the last 3 or 4 weeks he’s looked a lot smoother in route running and in and out of breaks. Of course now we are on our 3rd QB everything is going to get more difficult for everyone on offense. 

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14 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

What I dont understand is why us minions sitting at home and talking on message boards can see the basics of it, but he doesn't.  He's a calm guy but he's either completely naive or overwhelmingly arrogant to the point that he thinks he's smarter than anyone else and no matter what he does it's supposed to work.  There's ZERO adaptation or flexibility.  He's completely lacking in development as a coach.  We're seeing the same things we've seen his entire career.  It's like a QB who can't develop or mature as a player.  He is what he his and we will win his way or we wont win regardless of the circumstances. 

 

It appears after years of watching Jay manage the ins and outs of a game he seems to let the performance of the passing offense define him as a coach.

 

Just do what each game requires to win. Bottom line. Let us fans sulk in the stats and minutia. The NFL is such a mixed bag these days, requiring teams to adapt to what works in that 3 game stretch, half or season. 

8 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Everything is debatable. He’s going to end up with 50/55 catches for 500-600 yards. Not record breaking by any stretch but he’s shown progress every season statistically and I really think in the last 3 or 4 weeks he’s looked a lot smoother in route running and in and out of breaks. Of course now we are on our 3rd QB everything is going to get more difficult for everyone on offense. 

 

And he showed TD upside last year. A red zone threat/jump ball guy. #2 wideout projection seems fair. 

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46 minutes ago, MartinC said:

I’ve been generally supportive of Jay, and with the injuries we have had last season and this I still contend it’s hard to truly evaluate him and the his staff. However here is something I tweeted after the game last night.

 

 

When your starting your 2nd string QB and end up going most of the game with a 3rd string you picked up off the street two weeks ago and who has not taken a snap in practice. Meanwhile you have a future Hall of Fame running back. That game planning/play calling is inexcusable and asinine.

 

It's fair to criticize but you also have to factor in the times we had a holding call or negative play to put us in passing situations. Not to mention...we threw 25 times with some of those being down 2 scores in the 4th quarter. So, we just didn't have many plays to run. 

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26 minutes ago, lavar1156 said:

In fairness to Jay we have zero talent at WR. Remember the offense with Garcon and Djax?

 

 

Then why did we have our 3rd string QB who had been on the team for 2 weeks throwing the ball around the field when we were 1 possession behind while AP has 9 total carries for the game? 

2 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

It's fair to criticize but you also have to factor in the times we had a holding call or negative play to put us in passing situations. Not to mention...we threw 25 times with some of those being down 2 scores in the 4th quarter. So, we just didn't have many plays to run. 

 

 

At the start of the 4th quarter we were down 14-13.  At the end of the 1st half, Peterson had 5 carries. 

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1 minute ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

Then why did we have our 3rd string QB who had been on the team for 2 weeks throwing the ball around the field when we were 1 possession behind while AP has 9 total carries for the game? 

You have to try to move the ball. 

 

AP was electric on that one run, yes. But he had 8 carries for 8 yards otherwise. Which means if you simply hand off all game, you'd be punting a whole lot. 

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3 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

At the start of the 4th quarter we were down 14-13.  At the end of the 1st half, Peterson had 5 carries. 

 

Again, the numbers don't always tell the entire story...we committed a holding penalty on the first play from scrimmage. So, our first drive consisted of 1/20, 2/22 (after a -2 yard run from AP), and 3/15. 

 

The second drive bogged down with penalties but we got into FG range with the most significant chunk coming in the passing game. We still faced 3/20 due to another Williams penalty. 

 

The next drive was the 1-play TD drive. 

 

The next drive started with a -2 yard run to AP which put us in 2/12...we got 9 back through the air but punted. 

 

The last drive was the 2-minute drill which actually looked decent through the air. 

 

So, other than just throwing out a number...is there a drive you would have called significantly differently? It's not like AP was doing anything on the ground outside of one incredible run. 

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Peterson didn't crack 100 yards despite getting 90 on one carry.

 

That tells you all you need to know. Gruden has gotta go.

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6 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

You have to try to move the ball. 

 

AP was electric on that one run, yes. But he had 8 carries for 8 yards otherwise. Which means if you simply hand off all game, you'd be punting a whole lot. 

Are you really arguing we shouldn't have attempted to run more often yesterday? The decision making was awful. If nothing else you need to protect your 3rd string QB and burn some clock.

 

We had 14 rushing attempts total. Why were we rushing with Chris Thompson just about as much as Peterson? That's just dumb. The entire gameplan was dumb.

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Mark Sanchez is our QB behind a 3rd stringer-filled OL. How on early does Gruden take the blame? No coach is overcoming this train wreck.

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2 minutes ago, CTskin said:

Mark Sanchez is our QB behind a 3rd stringer-filled OL. How on early does Gruden take the blame? No coach is overcoming this train wreck.

Because Gruden is in charge of the team. The steam stank. Defensive problems have not been fixed or addressed. The buck stops with the head coach. I understand the offense struggling. I don't understand no rushing attempts when you have a HOF running back and a 3rd string off the street QB who hasn't practiced a single snap with the team, but I do understand why the offense faltered. Why the defense has suffered a complete collapse since 6-3 and there hasn't been any effort during these ten days since Thanksgiving to fix it is perplexing.

 

We made Wentz look better than Brady at his best. 

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I will pile on here and say that Gruden (and Manusky) don't have that same excuse with the defense. There have been comparatively way fewer injuries on that side of the ball yet we were letting Wentz and the Eagles have their way with us. 

 

The players also getting injured repeatedly begs the question as to conditioning and preparation, which ultimately falls on the head coach.

 

All of this is in addition to lackluster playcalling and an inability to make in game adjustments - an issue he's had even earlier in the season when we had a fully healthy team.

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23 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Again, the numbers don't always tell the entire story...we committed a holding penalty on the first play from scrimmage. So, our first drive consisted of 1/20, 2/22 (after a -2 yard run from AP), and 3/15. 

 

The second drive bogged down with penalties but we got into FG range with the most significant chunk coming in the passing game. We still faced 3/20 due to another Williams penalty. 

 

The next drive was the 1-play TD drive. 

 

The next drive started with a -2 yard run to AP which put us in 2/12...we got 9 back through the air but punted. 

 

The last drive was the 2-minute drill which actually looked decent through the air. 

 

So, other than just throwing out a number...is there a drive you would have called significantly differently? It's not like AP was doing anything on the ground outside of one incredible run. 

 

 

The main example I have is the 2nd drive we had the ball.. We run play action on 1st down and hit Doctson on a chunk play.. I was very happy to see that, i got really excited.  Then we run CT to the left for 0.  Why is CT carrying the ball on 1st down?   We run 2 pass plays (one of which was the worst WR screen i've ever seen to Doc where Trent Williams is sprinting toward the sideline to try and block the dB), getting bailed out on PI on 3rd and 11.   AP on 1st and 10 for 6... yay!   Penalty for 1st.  AP up the middle for zippy.  We then jump and it's 2nd and 14.  I hand the ball to AP there... you're at the Philly 20 so the ENTIRE Playbook is open and we've already hit them for a big play in PA as well as a 6 yard gain that drive.  Instead Colt gets sacked and we're at 3rd and 20.  Block in the back, 3rd and 30.  Were screwed now.  

 

 

I'll freely admit that we weren't exactly doing anything, but when you've got literally 1 person who can change a game, you have to make sure he gets the ball.   3 quarters of that game we were behind by less than a score.  I can't be ok with how things went.  AP wasn't blowing doors off with multiple gashing style runs, I agree with that, but it's as much about the terrible attempts at getting him the ball, as its about the number of carries.  On a bunch of those terrible runs, we're handing it to him out of shotgun and it looks like were in pass pro.  His 90 yarder, Sanchez was lined up under center and we were in a single back formation.  Why haven't we adjusted that more to get him the ball more? 

 

I cant look at the drive charts and insert a large number of specific "oh this should have been a run" or "run here instead of pass' but it's a lot bigger than that.  The playcalling, regardless of whether it's Colt or Sanchez dictates how the game progresses, so it's gotta be an entire game plan.  It's not as easy as saying he had 5 carries before half time, but he should have had 10, so swap out these 5 passes for 5 runs.  4 bad carries is not enough to tell me that Peterson was being shut down, especially since he had a 6 yard run mixed in there.  

15 minutes ago, CTskin said:

Mark Sanchez is our QB behind a 3rd stringer-filled OL. How on early does Gruden take the blame? No coach is overcoming this train wreck.

 

 

Because it's not that we lost, it's how we lost.  Mark Sanchez is our QB behind a 3rd string O-line, yet Sanchez dropped back 21 times, while a HOF RB ran the ball 9 times.  

 

25 pass attempts

14 rb carries

 

2-1 pass to run ratio WITH MARK SANCHEZ AS OUR QB BEHIND A 3RD STRING O-LINE WITH ADRIAN PETERSON AS OUR STARTING RB

Edited by OVCChairman

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Our average to go on 3rd down was about 13 yds do to penalties and negative plays. So for the folks wanting to run the ball more (AP 8 carries 8 yards)you can't  down by 2+scores! REMINDER.....Colt was 4-4 with 50 yards when he left the game folks. ALSO for these fans who cry about play calling......the ENTIRE WORLD new we were running the ball on the 90 yard run by AP, it's called EXECUTION, these are professional players!

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1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

It's a shame this organization let McVay go.  Right now it is looking like when Dallas let Sean Payton go to New Orleans, thinking they could repeat that success with Jason Garrett (lol). 

 

I wish we had the chance to see if McVay would have had positive effect on the offense post-Kirk Cousins.  It really seemed like McVay knew how to maximize Gruden's offense and offer his own wrinkles. 

 

Instead he is the HC of the Rams where he turned Goff into a legit franchise QB within one season. 

Not a chance in the world McVay allows a post-Kirk Cousins era to happen without a fight.  He loves Kirk.  McVay’s too smart to co-sign dumping Kirk and paying a mint to freaking Alex Smith.

 

As much as I loath both Bruce and Dan, even I know that it was impossible for them to keep McVay.  A. They couldn’t offer him what the Rams could as far as talent and FO. B. No way McVay takes his old bosses job.  The boss that gave him his opportunity.

 

McVay is a smart dude and from what we’ve seen, a class individual.  Not a chance in the world he signed on to be head coach here under the circumstances and with other opportunities presented to him.

 

 

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