Voice_of_Reason

Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

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Whether or not gruden deserves a pass, he is going to get one. But there is no way the gm should get one. The alex smith deal wasn’t looking great before he broke his leg, now it looks terrible. We have no talent players on offense except a few overrated oft injured wannabees, and our defense has basically given up.

 

We are in a terrible cap space with not a lot of talent or a war chest of draft pics. On any other team GM is gone.

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13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I agree with the thought behind the point but not if Dan is keeping him just to pick a QB.  As much as some pick on Jay as some sort of clown on this thread.  I've heard many times that Jay is perhaps the smartest personnel guy at Redskins Park. Scot told me to my face that Jay is a really good evaluator.

 

Getting Dalton in the 2nd was a good pick -- most 2nd rounders are busts.  Pushing RG3 out the door and elevating the QB they did was another good move.  As much as the Redskins are trashed here for just making McVay the HC -- who was the dude that gave a young kid that offensive coordinator position?  Again, Jay.

 

so do I trust this front office to make the right decision at QB without Jay?  Heck no.  So I agree with the point here, the odds are better that they will get the QB position right with Jay involved in the decision.

 

Having said that, I did say before the season that if they don't make the playoffs, I get them moving on from Jay.  5 years is a long enough time.  But if they anger is directed at him, it might actually save Bruce's job.   Bruce goes hey I gave the dude the horses but he underperformed.  Let me guide the next coach.  That's why IMO by a mile the heat should be on Bruce -- if people want Jay out, then fire Bruce, replace him with someone and let that dude make the decision.

 

The other thing is this is a hot mess of an organization to take over.  So I am not in the camp if just go get the next hot shot coordinator and watch all to be fixed.  I'll take a hot choice here weeks ago, Diflippo, I've him trashed on twitter by Vikings fans, heck even ex-player Sage Rosenfels saying he needs to go.  So the next toy looks shiny and perfect until you see their imperfections up close.

 

I presume this is directed about Manusky below but Swearinger is really swinging per usual -- if these coaches make it back, wonder if DJ makes it back, too. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To the first point... I don't want Jay a part of the QB picking process because I want the new HC to get his guy.  That said, I dont want Bruce a part of it because i want a new GM to pick his new HC, then the two of them pick their new QB.  A lot of competent thought to ask of this organization but a guy can hope right?

 

As far as Swearinger, now, more than ever, the coaches need to do their jobs and talk to him.  He's calling them out publicly, yet nothing we've seen has shown us that they have a handle on him.  You want the coaches to be accountable?  You're sitting the first half next week for causing a locker room distraction.  He's right... its on the coaches, it's now on the coaches to control one of their players.  

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Just thinking as I watched the debacle Mon nite is that in the Pats game against the Vikes they kept saying how Belacheck always takes away the other teams best player. He did it against Thelan. How come it seems like every game the other teams best player has a field day against us. I mean the Philly TE is good but do you have to make him look like Jerry Rice for gods sake? Take him out of the game. Double him. Put a spy on Wentz and other running QBs, and one that can tackle. To me it is the same thing over and over with Jay. Team comes out flat after a long rest. Poor play in big games and ESP in prime time. Missed tackles, dropped passes. Stupid penalties that absolutely kill us at the wrong time. Ultra poor play calling and poor use of your best players. Why can't our 2 TE match the Philly TE's output. I mean Philly has guys off the street playing on D and do you think Jay could take advantage of that. You have AP on your team and you do not give him the ball in the second half, WTF! There are good coaches available like Bruce Ariana's and now McCarthy. There are good assistants out there like that guy from the Pats. Please dump this bum and get a qualified professional coach with a track record and let him bring in his assistants instead of a castoff from arena football. 

Edited by 50yrSKINSfan
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1 hour ago, Burgold said:

I expected more from the defense. Seeing the Haslett D from the first drive bugged the heck out of me. 

Ya, even a. Lue moon kitchen sink Haslett D woulda been better.  When I saw us losing 50-50 tackles in that drive and Philly wanted it more, a lot through my head that had nothing to do with scheme

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I've seen enough. I've been one of Gruden's biggest supporters this entire time and still do recognize and admire how he's bumped us up to a consistently competitive team. Joke about it all you want, but the fact that we're likely to have 4 consecutive "averageish" seasons (9-7, 8-7-1, 7-9, and 6-6 heading into the final quarter) is progress! 

 

I think this is all he can do. I think he's replacement-level (which again is better than being bad!) and will essentially get what the personnel dictates. He won't squeeze out wins that we shouldn't get but he also won't be responsible for losing games too often. Now, I don't want to see him fired in December nor do I want him fired by Bruce Allen. So, if Snyder isn't ready to can Allen, then I guess I want Gruden to stay. 

 

What I truly want to happen is this: 

 

1) Clean house up top and let Schaeffer and Lafemina set the direction of the franchise

2) Promote or find a GM that is aligned with the two above

3) Have that threesome pick a coaching staff 

4) Sell off anyone with trade value who isn't on this list: Guice, our young DLs, maybe a couple promising young DBs, Scherff

 

Tear the band-aid completely off and re-cast this team. It's time. It's probably been time for a decade, but I'm finally there. 

 

 

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Jay Gruden has been a poor man's Bruce Boudreau. For those who don't follow hockey, Boudreau elevated the Capitals from horrible losers to a consistently good team that underperformed in the playoffs and was routinely ousted in the first round. Eventually, the Caps decided that they had reached a ceiling with Boudreau and could not get any further so they canned him. Sometime afterwards, they canned their head coach too.

 

They didn't do appreciably better with the replacements Dale Hunter and Adam Oates. In fact, they may have backslid, but they finally did grab the Stanley Cup Championship with Trotz last year. Is there a moral to this story? I guess it is that you can settle for mediocrity and feel okay, but vaguely disappointed all the time or you can clean house, fail again, clean house, and maybe at some point get it right.

 

I think it's hard to say Gruden has built anything here after five years. After five years, his offense looks like his first year here. His once promising defense has fallen to pieces. Tress Way looks great, but if you have to hang your hat on the punter... You're punting on the season. 

 

Ultimately, I think Gruden deserves our thanks for wrighting the ship, a gold pocket watch, and an escort into the sunset. We might do worse without him, but we ain't reaching any mountaintops with him either.

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I still like Jay and I feel bad for the guy that having assembled some decent talent on the roster the last 2 years have effectively been ruined by some truly awful luck with injuries.  Sucks for him not to have had a full season with his team as both last year and this year the team flashed before the attrition rate became too much to live with.  For proof, we would have beaten the 9 win streak Texans with a chip shot field goal after Alex went down if the officials had called the blatant PI on Doctson on our final drive.  Jay is a good coach and deserves some gratitude for restoring some respectability to the team but even as one of his biggest boosters I have to concede the time is right for a change. 

 

If we are smart we can handle this with dignity and class, not something we manage often, but it is what Jay deserves for his efforts.  I am pretty certain that if he is let go at the end of the season he walks into the Bengals HC job as Mike Brown loves familiarity and is only keeping Marvin around until one of his home grown coaches becomes available.  With Hue Jackson far too toxic to sell to the Bengals fan base as the new HC I genuinely believe the timing is perfect for Jay and his past work with Andy Dalton will sell him to the team and fans there.

 

We can then focus on finding our new HC, probably bottom out next year as we cash in on all of our vets and roll with whatever we can find, hope that Alex or Colt can play so that the new guy can truly evaluate the roster and then again swing for the fences in the 2020 draft with presumably a high first rounder and a bunch of other picks from trades when we know there will be at least 3 potentially franchise altering QBs available.  Personally would love to see a smart, tough coach from a winning culture like Brian Flores teamed with an OC like Kliff Klingsbury.

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Im a Jay fan, I appreciate what he has done and the many obstacles he has had to face here. Ive come to the conclusion he is not a leader of men. Great O Coord and probably a good HC if everyone stays healthy and everything is going along fine.

 

I appreciate Jay, probably better than we deserve honestly. 

 

Time to reset. Fire Bruce, fire Jay, hire GM ....

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Time for Jay to go.  He can take Bruce with him. 

 

Seriously, fire them today.  Anything less is willful mediocrity.

Edited by sempre_victrix
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22 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Jay Gruden has been a poor man's Bruce Boudreau. For those who don't follow hockey, Boudreau elevated the Capitals from horrible losers to a consistently good team that underperformed in the playoffs and was routinely ousted in the first round. Eventually, the Caps decided that they had reached a ceiling with Boudreau and could not get any further so they canned him. Sometime afterwards, they canned their head coach too.

 

They didn't do appreciably better with the replacements Dale Hunter and Adam Oates. In fact, they may have backslid, but they finally did grab the Stanley Cup Championship with Trotz last year. Is there a moral to this story? I guess it is that you can settle for mediocrity and feel okay, but vaguely disappointed all the time or you can clean house, fail again, clean house, and maybe at some point get it right.

 

I think it's hard to say Gruden has built anything here after five years. After five years, his offense looks like his first year here. His once promising defense has fallen to pieces. Tress Way looks great, but if you have to hang your hat on the punter... You're punting on the season. 

 

Ultimately, I think Gruden deserves our thanks for wrighting the ship, a gold pocket watch, and an escort into the sunset. We might do worse without him, but we ain't reaching any mountaintops with him either.

Bruce Boudreau would slap you if he saw this comparison 

 

He actually won games, played an innovative style, and consistently made the playoffs 

 

Gruden has accomplished none of that 

 

he is Adam Oates. Plays a rigid style with zero adaptation to his players and gets mediocre to bad results 

Edited by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

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2 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Bruce Boudreau would slap you if he saw this comparison 

 

He actually won games, played an innovative style, and consistently made the playoffs 

 

Gruden has accomplished none of that 

It’s also a bad comparison because the Caps FO isn’t and really hasn’t been a **** show.

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3 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Bruce Boudreau would slap you if he saw this comparison 

 

He actually won games, played an innovative style, and consistently made the playoffs 

 

Gruden has accomplished none of that 

 

Well, Gruden has made us league-average without any great personnel. And, in hockey, being in the top half of the conference gets you to the playoffs. So, I'd say it's a closer comparison than you're giving credit for. 

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3 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Well, Gruden has made us league-average without any great personnel. And, in hockey, being in the top half of the conference gets you to the playoffs. So, I'd say it's a closer comparison than you're giving credit for. 

Except the Caps were the East’s top team twice under Bruce and won a Presidents Cup in 2010 while winning their division every year. They were a dominant team every year up until he was fired mid season in 2011,

 

You’d have to play Madden for Gruden to approach that 

 

Hockey isn’t important in this debate tho. Gruden is done. He’s had 5 years. 

Edited by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

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6 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Except the Caps were the East’s top team twice under Bruce and won a Presidents Cup in 2010 while winning their division every year. They were a dominant team every year up until he was fired mid season in 2011,

 

You’d have to play Madden for Gruden to approach that 

 

Hockey isn’t important in this debate tho. Gruden is done. He’s had 5 years. 

 

Yeah, it's not a perfect comparison...I get it. 

 

I am fine with Gruden being let go...but it better come as a result of changes above him. Otherwise it's pointless. 

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Ha!  Boudreau is actually a good coach and Gruden sucks.  Not even close.  Boudreau at least has a winning record in his career.  Gruden is an overall loser.

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Just now, Springfield said:

Ha!  Boudreau is actually a good coach and Gruden sucks.  Not even close.  Boudreau at least has a winning record in his career.  Gruden is an overall loser.

 

image.png.91451377607b3154af3480223aafea8d.png

 

 

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I have more of a concern with the training staff... no way these injuries are all accidents. It's been year after year being in the tops of the injured reserve lists. Start with them if you're going to fire people. I've never seen anything like this. We avg. 3 guys to IR per game.

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21 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It’s also a bad comparison because the Caps FO isn’t and really hasn’t been a **** show.

 

Caps have a real owner.

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I’ve been generally supportive of Jay, and with the injuries we have had last season and this I still contend it’s hard to truly evaluate him and the his staff. However here is something I tweeted after the game last night.

 

 

When your starting your 2nd string QB and end up going most of the game with a 3rd string you picked up off the street two weeks ago and who has not taken a snap in practice. Meanwhile you have a future Hall of Fame running back. That game planning/play calling is inexcusable and asinine.

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Just now, SemperFi Skins said:

I have more of a concern with the training staff... no way these injuries are all accidents. It's been year after year being in the tops of the injured reserve lists. Start with them if you're going to fire people. I've never seen anything like this. We avg. 3 guys to IR per game.

 

It all starts and ends with Snyder.

 

The entire ****ing ****-show. 

 

He owns it both literally and figuratively.

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2 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Whether or not gruden deserves a pass, he is going to get one. But there is no way the gm should get one. The alex smith deal wasn’t looking great before he broke his leg, now it looks terrible. We have no talent players on offense except a few overrated oft injured wannabees, and our defense has basically given up.

 

We are in a terrible cap space with not a lot of talent or a war chest of draft pics. On any other team GM is gone.

 

Yeah, BA's head needs to roll for this debacle.  One of the selling points of last year's QB was his durability.  At any level of competition in any sport I believe that Availability > Ability. 

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It's a shame this organization let McVay go.  Right now it is looking like when Dallas let Sean Payton go to New Orleans, thinking they could repeat that success with Jason Garrett (lol). 

 

I wish we had the chance to see if McVay would have had positive effect on the offense post-Kirk Cousins.  It really seemed like McVay knew how to maximize Gruden's offense and offer his own wrinkles. 

 

Instead he is the HC of the Rams where he turned Goff into a legit franchise QB within one season. 

 

As far as Gruden goes.  I think he is a solid X's & O's guy but he is a terrible play caller, and I don't see any intangibles from him that screams "Head Coach"

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3 minutes ago, SemperFi Skins said:

Well we've known forever that he won't sell, so what's the next option? 

 

The NFL would have to intervene and remove him, as he is detrimental to the franchise. Will likely never happen, but they'd have a open and shut case if they decided to do so.

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