Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

[PartyPosse]

13 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

To those that still defend Gruden, I pose this question:  if he was hired in La instead of McVay, and allowed to build his own coaching staff and team, would he have gotten to 11 wins and coach of the year last year? 5-0 this year?

 

There’s no way to know, but I doubt it.  

 

And I’m dead sure he would have punted with a 2 point lead in Seattle last week and let Wilson take shots at winning the game instead of sacking up and trying to win on offense.

 

And I’m sure because he’s done it I’ve and over

I’m no Gruden supporter but McVay had a pretty solid core when he went there with Goff, Gurley, Donald, Ogletree, Joyner etc. I don’t doubt gruden would have won 10, especially in that division. Let’s not make it out to be Sean is the next Belichick just quite yet.

[Burgundy Yoda]

2 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I’m no Gruden supporter but McVay had a pretty solid core when he went there with Goff, Gurley, Donald, Ogletree, Joyner etc. I don’t doubt gruden would have won 10, especially in that division. Let’s not make it out to be Sean is the next Belichick just quite yet.

Nobody is saying McVay is the greatest coach ever. He is a damn good coach though and an offensive genius and he isnt even in his mid 30s.

[50yrSKINSfan]

2 hours ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

It may sound crazy and I'm sure *some* will give me s*&T but I'd like to see Greg Williams invited back. At LEAST he has the attitude and with this D talent I think it will be fun to watch. I *HOPE* Danny didn't burn that bridge. We need MEAN and Greg has it in spades

G W will never come back. Think he was promised or at least led to believe he was to be the next HC when  JJG left and he was piss-d off when he did not get it. Besides, you cannot hire a guy to a lateral move as he is now a D.C. so you would have to make him HC or pos assistant HC. Cheers.

20 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Nobody is saying McVay is the greatest coach ever. He is a damn good coach though and an offensive genius and he isnt even in his mid 30s.

 

21 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Nobody is saying McVay is the greatest coach ever. He is a damn good coach though and an offensive genius and he isnt even in his mid 30s.

He fell into a pretty good suituation. Cheers.

[Burgundy Yoda]

33 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

G W will never come back. Think he was promised or at least led to believe he was to be the next HC when  JJG left and he was piss-d off when he did not get it. Besides, you cannot hire a guy to a lateral move as he is now a D.C. so you would have to make him HC or pos assistant HC. Cheers.

 

He fell into a pretty good suituation. Cheers.

He maximized a situation. Built a good staff, that team is so talented because he brought a lot of those guys in. OL was terrible, LBs were very average as was the secondary. It only seems like he fell into a good situation because of how good hes making them look.

[samy316]

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

I’m no Gruden supporter but McVay had a pretty solid core when he went there with Goff, Gurley, Donald, Ogletree, Joyner etc. I don’t doubt gruden would have won 10, especially in that division. Let’s not make it out to be Sean is the next Belichick just quite yet.

 

Sorry man, but I have to disagree.  Sean McVay already looks like the next Bill Walsh, and we let him walk right through the door.  I agree with VOR, we've seen enough of Gruden here for 5 years to determine that he simply is NOT a great coach, or even a good one. He's mediocrity personified.  I commend him for upgrading us from lost in the wilderness to mediocre, but he's NOT the coach that's going to get you to the next level.

 

If we had a front office that had vision, foresight and guts, we would've held onto McVay after the Giants game in 2016, and kicked Gruden to the curb.  It hit me like a ton of bricks when I was watching the Colts game 2 weeks ago that Gruden will never be a top tier coach.  Year 5, and we're STILL dealing with the same issues that have plagued this team since Year 1.  We haven't progressed one iota, and in some ways, we're only a losing streak away from this whole thing coming apart fast.  We might have to root for McVay to kill it, or for Cousins to get to/and or win a SB. for Dan to finally get a clue, and fire the Tampa connection for good.

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

1 hour ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

G W will never come back. Think he was promised or at least led to believe he was to be the next HC when  JJG left and he was piss-d off when he did not get it. Besides, you cannot hire a guy to a lateral move as he is now a D.C. so you would have to make him HC or pos assistant HC. Cheers.

 

He fell into a pretty good suituation. Cheers.

I'd offer the HC job..that's what I meant..not DC. I always liked Gregg. He's OK in Clev as DC but I think he'd be "available" for the Skins HC IF Dan and him can put that BS behind them both. I heard Dan didn't like his assessment of the FO...well..was Gregg right or not?

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

I’m no Gruden supporter but McVay had a pretty solid core when he went there with Goff, Gurley, Donald, Ogletree, Joyner etc. I don’t doubt gruden would have won 10, especially in that division. Let’s not make it out to be Sean is the next Belichick just quite yet.

I just asked if Gruden was handed the exact same situation would he have done better, worse or the same.

 

I say that he gets the Rams to 8-8 last year.  

 

He could take just about any team and make them average.

 

Norv took Marty’s 14-2 Chargers team and made it 10-6 in 1 year.

 

Jay is Norv. Except not as good an OC.

 

 

[Renegade7]

28 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I just asked if Gruden was handed the exact same situation would he have done better, worse or the same.

 

I say that he gets the Rams to 8-8 last year.  

 

He could take just about any team and make them average.

 

Norv took Marty’s 14-2 Chargers team and made it 10-6 in 1 year.

 

Jay is Norv. Except not as good an OC.

 

 

 

See you calmed down a little but still too hard on your boy.  Maybe not same record as McVay, but Jay is getting no love for developing Kirk or Dalton, can see him pointing Goff in right direction . 

 

I think having Wade Phillips keeps them a playoff team, like 10-6, saying they would go 8-8 is like saying Jay alone would cost them multiple games on his own even with a more talented roster then he's ever had, Nah.

 

You mentioned the other day about Andy Ried being prepared and always maximizing his talent.  I present to you the Eagles "dream team" years with Vick.

[JoggingGod]

55 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

See you calmed down a little but still too hard on your boy.  Maybe not same record as McVay, but Jay is getting no love for developing Kirk or Dalton, can see him pointing Goff in right direction . 

 

I think having Wade Phillips keeps them a playoff team, like 10-6, saying they would go 8-8 is like saying Jay alone would cost them multiple games on his own even with a more talented roster then he's ever had, Nah.

 

You mentioned the other day about Andy Ried being prepared and always maximizing his talent.  I present to you the Eagles "dream team" years with Vick.

Will you stop shilling the team, for once maybe?

Jay is a bad head coach, no way around it. He should be fired soon.

[Renegade7]

20 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

Will you stop shilling the team, for once maybe?

Jay is a bad head coach, no way around it. He should be fired soon.

I get crap when I'm too hard, I get crap when I'm too nice.  If you don't like my opinion, block me.

[skins island connection]

58 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

See you calmed down a little but still too hard on your boy.  Maybe not same record as McVay, but Jay is getting no love for developing Kirk or Dalton, can see him pointing Goff in right direction . 

 

I think having Wade Phillips keeps them a playoff team, like 10-6, saying they would go 8-8 is like saying Jay alone would cost them multiple games on his own even with a more talented roster then he's ever had, Nah.

 

You mentioned the other day about Andy Ried being prepared and always maximizing his talent.  I present to you the Eagles "dream team" years with Vick.

Well, it wasn't like Cousins was a 6trh rnd scrub who had no talent.

He broke a few Michigan St. records, one I believe was passing yds, so he had some talent. As far as Jay grooming him, I can't answer on that, but it is odd that both Dalton and Cousins gets so far then hits a wall.

 

Let's face it; Jay got a job in the NFL with his name, not his skillset. Chucky probably had more to do with him being in the NFL than Jay, and usually these types of guys starts out at Quality Control, then works their way up to some assistant, and depending on the success of the team by their HC, they get noticed for some reason. It wasn't like Jay was this hot shot offensive guru.

 

His problem is adapting and game planning. The good coaches exploit an opponent's weaknesses and schemes off of that, to stay a step ahead of their adjustments; Jay has always been on the wrong end of this.

How many times has the team faced an opponent who, say, has the 30th ranked rushing defense but the 5th ranked pass defense, and he goes after the passing part, only to fail, fall behind, and be forced to pass even more because time is running out and running the ball takes away the clock?  Every team has weaknesses, but only a handful can mask it and even use it to their advantage, but most of the other HCs get some benefit; this team always seems to hit a wall when they least need to, and they don't recover.

 

Regarding halftime adjustments, its rare. Once in awhile they take the 2nd half first possession down for a TD, but for the most part it seems like a 2nd half 'feeling out' process, which takes the entire qtr and even some of the 4th, but by that time it gets out of hand and he has to resort to mostly passing plays to try and catch up; that's desperation, and usually opponents are prepared, and the rest is history.

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

See you calmed down a little but still too hard on your boy.  Maybe not same record as McVay, but Jay is getting no love for developing Kirk or Dalton, can see him pointing Goff in right direction . 

 

I think having Wade Phillips keeps them a playoff team, like 10-6, saying they would go 8-8 is like saying Jay alone would cost them multiple games on his own even with a more talented roster then he's ever had, Nah.

 

You mentioned the other day about Andy Ried being prepared and always maximizing his talent.  I present to you the Eagles "dream team" years with Vick.

Jay wouldn’t have hired Wade.  He would have hired some average to below average DC. I know because we’ll kept Haz, hired Barry and then Manusky. None are great, that’s his MO.  Hire “meh.” DCs.

 

My hypothetical is that Jay is hired and then has to put together his staff and coach the team, exactly he same as McVay. I don’t believe any scenario where he takes that team in the first year to better than 8-8.  McVay immediately knew he needed a stud Dc so he hired Wase immediately.

 

And without McVay to tutor Goff, he might still be labeled as a bust.

 

Reid got absolutely every last drop of production out of Vick.  Don’t forget the Monday Night Massacre.

 

Reid had some bad years here and there but his teams are always exceptionally well prepared. He’s not perfect, but he’s an outstanding regular season coach. 

 

Im not really worked up about it.  My position hasn’t changed.  Jay is an average to below average coach who lacks the ability to prepare his team consistently, and the team takes on the personality of its coach, which is very lackadaisical. 

 

He’s better suited to be an OC than HC. 

[Renegade7]

13 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

Well, it wasn't like Cousins was a 6trh rnd scrub who had no talent.

He broke a few Michigan St. records, one I believe was passing yds, so he had some talent. As far as Jay grooming him, I can't answer on that, but it is odd that both Dalton and Cousins gets so far then hits a wall.

 

Colt Brennan set records too, that means nothing in translating to the Pros.  Are we really with a straight face going to say anyone coulda came in here and made Kirk a franchise QB?  We forget the "You Like That" game already where some of us thought at halftime Kirk was going to be out the NFL soon, or at least never start for us again?  I'm kinda getting tired of defending Gruden more then his record can, but he showed up in Cincy in 2011.  Below are the teams points scored ranking in the 3 years he was OC:

 

2011 - 18th

2012 - 12th

2013 - 6th

 

All playoff teams, Dalton also became a pro bowl QB under Gruden, second round pick.  I'm not a fan of the up down nature of this team, but I believe in his system, I've seen it work in two different teams now with the right peices.  Everyone wants to throw around names of elite coaches like BB, Tomlin, McCarthy, and Sean Payton, but they all have elite QBs to make up for when they are wrong, and they are all wrong eventually, they've all had dude games as well.  Like I've mentioned before, the one time we saw Jay with a franchise QB and a legit receiving core we went to the playoffs.  That's not a coincidence.

 

13 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

Let's face it; Jay got a job in the NFL with his name, not his skillset. Chucky probably had more to do with him being in the NFL than Jay, and usually these types of guys starts out at Quality Control, then works their way up to some assistant, and depending on the success of the team by their HC, they get noticed for some reason. It wasn't like Jay was this hot shot offensive guru.

 

See above, and he was an assistant with his brother, OC in Cincy then HC here.  I'm not a fan of counting his Arena Bowl coaching experience, same time him winning championship I think you are wasting him as a glorified waterboy.  But he was with his brother in Tampa for 7 years, its not like he was there for two them all the sudden assistant HC somewhere, that's not what happened. He was hired here for developing Dalton and the Bengals offense into a top 10 unit, the hope is he could do the same for Griffin.  Instead he did it with his backup, who we just let walk out the door and replaced with someone in their mid-30s.  He's far from perfect, but I always wanted to see him with chance to have his own guy, draft someone, and see what he did with them without worrying about his defense being lower then 30th in the NFL.  How does anything he does with the offense matter when his defense has been giving up points like that since he's been here?  Cincy had top 10 units, that's they they went to the playoffs every year he was OC there.

 

13 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

His problem is adapting and game planning. The good coaches exploit an opponent's weaknesses and schemes off of that, to stay a step ahead of their adjustments; Jay has always been on the wrong end of this.

How many times has the team faced an opponent who, say, has the 30th ranked rushing defense but the 5th ranked pass defense, and he goes after the passing part, only to fail, fall behind, and be forced to pass even more because time is running out and running the ball takes away the clock?  Every team has weaknesses, but only a handful can mask it and even use it to their advantage, but most of the other HCs get some benefit; this team always seems to hit a wall when they least need to, and they don't recover.

 

I don't know, you tell me?  How many times the offense score enough points to win and defense allow enough points to lose since he's been here?  Always on the wrong of coaching is anecdotal at best, stop it, he's not Belicheck I get it, but damn.

 

13 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

Regarding halftime adjustments, its rare. Once in awhile they take the 2nd half first possession down for a TD, but for the most part it seems like a 2nd half 'feeling out' process, which takes the entire qtr and even some of the 4th, but by that time it gets out of hand and he has to resort to mostly passing plays to try and catch up; that's desperation, and usually opponents are prepared, and the rest is history.

 

It's not a prepared problem if the offense is moving in the first half then not in the second, I think he's been gunshot dealing with Cousins and him all the sudden becoming a turnover machine out of nowhere.  I agree that he gets too conservative because he's scared to lose, but it took a while before he had a QB here he could trust not to keep turning the ball over.  I'm empathetic to this, I still think a lot of ya'll are just mad we got blown out on primetime again.  I can't with a straight face look at that offense and expect them to compete with Brees at home, especiallly if Alex is throwing ducks, I don't care how prepare or unprepared Gruden was.

[Voice_of_Reason]

45 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I get crap when I'm too hard, I get crap when I'm too nice.  If you don't like my opinion, block me.

Fwiw, I like your opinions.  And enjoy the conversation.

 

Even if you’re wrong.  

[Renegade7]

1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Jay wouldn’t have hired Wade.  He would have hired some average to below average DC. I know because we’ll kept Haz, hired Barry and then Manusky. None are great, that’s his MO.  Hire “meh.” DCs.

 

My hypothetical is that Jay is hired and then has to put together his staff and coach the team, exactly he same as McVay. I don’t believe any scenario where he takes that team in the first year to better than 8-8.  McVay immediately knew he needed a stud Dc so he hired Wase immediately.

 

And without McVay to tutor Goff, he might still be labeled as a bust.

 

Reid got absolutely every last drop of production out of Vick.  Don’t forget the Monday Night Massacre.

 

Reid had some bad years here and there but his teams are always exceptionally well prepared. He’s not perfect, but he’s an outstanding regular season coach. 

 

Im not really worked up about it.  My position hasn’t changed.  Jay is an average to below average coach who lacks the ability to prepare his team consistently, and the team takes on the personality of its coach, which is very lackadaisical. 

 

He’s better suited to be an OC than HC. 

 

Dude, c'mon, they actually set up an interview with Wade and he turned us down because we didn't have enough talent on defense.  Is that Jay's fault, too?

 

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/report-wade-phillips-turned-down-redskins-because-of-talent/

 

Quote

According to the source, Phillips was “very concerned about the Redskins overall lack of talent” on the defensive side of the ball. The Redskins, per the source, strongly believe they are only “two or three starters” from fielding a very competitive defense if all their players can remain healthy and get on the field."

 

An additional source familiar with the situation between the Redskins and Phillips states that Phillips had asked the Redskins front office for assurances that the defense will be a top priority in free agency and the draft. In turn, the Redskins shared more information about future plans than normal because “they wanted to complete the deal before another team acted.”

 

Are you looking  intoanything you are venting about or just going off of memory?  Maximizing Vick, Vick only had a completion % of 60 once while with Reid, did Vick ever have a game like that against us or anyone else again?  I see there's no point in bringing up Dalton anymore, he gets no credit for that or Cousins at all.  You may be right that he's better as an OC, but I'm not ready to write him off without giving him the talent to compete with these teams that have just as much or more talent then we do.  I wish I could find that graphic of his record with a lead, people out of town hate him way less then we do, I take that as a sign.

[Renegade7]

15 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Fwiw, I like your opinions.  And enjoy the conversation.

 

Even if you’re wrong.  

: )  Thanks, even when I go left field with my perspective, I know I'll get answer from you that isn't disrespectful.  Sometimes that's all I can ask for.  

[Peregrine]

5 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

I’m no Gruden supporter but McVay had a pretty solid core when he went there with Goff, Gurley, Donald, Ogletree, Joyner etc. I don’t doubt gruden would have won 10, especially in that division. Let’s not make it out to be Sean is the next Belichick just quite yet.

I think thats a myth.

 

That core only looks good because of what McVay turned them into.  Goff was trash and Gurley was terrible before McVay showed up.  That defense?  23rd in points allowed prior to McVay.  They have already won more games through week 5 of this season, than they did in the season before McVay showed up.

[Wildbunny]

10 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I just asked if Gruden was handed the exact same situation would he have done better, worse or the same.

 

I say that he gets the Rams to 8-8 last year.  

 

He could take just about any team and make them average.

 

Norv took Marty’s 14-2 Chargers team and made it 10-6 in 1 year.

 

Jay is Norv. Except not as good an OC.

 

 

So you think that if we fired Jay to promote McVay we would have been 11-5 and 5-0?

 

I highly doubt it...

7 hours ago, Peregrine said:

I think thats a myth.

 

That core only looks good because of what McVay turned them into.  Goff was trash and Gurley was terrible before McVay showed up.  That defense?  23rd in points allowed prior to McVay.  They have already won more games through week 5 of this season, than they did in the season before McVay showed up.

That's the Jeff Fisher effect.

[goskins10]

7 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Dude, c'mon, they actually set up an interview with Wade and he turned us down because we didn't have enough talent on defense.  Is that Jay's fault, too?

 

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/report-wade-phillips-turned-down-redskins-because-of-talent/

 

This was the second time after he had already been spurned for Joe Barry. I often wonder how different all this would have been had they hire Phillips then instead of Barry. You put even an average defense with what Kirk did from 2015 to 2017 and this could have been a incompletely different story.  I blame Jay but I also blame the FO - specifically Bruce. He did a good job getting guys like Tomsula and Callaghan (although wondering if that was as good a move as it seemed). But he screwed the pooch with Barry. I have to acknowledge that I was Ok when they hired Barry, being willing to give him a chance. But those that were pissed then were right. 

 

7 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Are you looking  intoanything you are venting about or just going off of memory?  Maximizing Vick, Vick only had a completion % of 60 once while with Reid, did Vick ever have a game like that against us or anyone else again?  I see there's no point in bringing up Dalton anymore, he gets no credit for that or Cousins at all.  You may be right that he's better as an OC, but I'm not ready to write him off without giving him the talent to compete with these teams that have just as much or more talent then we do.  I wish I could find that graphic of his record with a lead, people out of town hate him way less then we do, I take that as a sign.

 

We need to stop using injuries and talent as an excuse. If at year 5 he does not have enough input to the team to get the talent he wants then he should not be the HC. He clearly is not respected enough. If in fact he does have input - which I suspect he does - if there is not enough talent that is on him. And most of the injuries are to guys we know get injured. If you go into another year relying on them after what happened last year, that's on you. Either way it's on him to a large extent. 

 

And talent has nothing to do with getting guys ready for a game. There is a huge difference between lack of talent and lack of effort. If we had just been out-manned but the team was fighting tooth and nail but just lost - OK. But they had a little adversity with the stupid penalties early and AP going down and they folded like a cheap tent. Alex was running for his life early then got those happy feet like Peyton Manning used to get when he was about to throw 3 or 4 picks in a game. Thankfully Alex did not do that, Instead he throw where they could not be caught by anyone, including our guys. Some of that was on WRs. They looked confused. No one was on the same page. That is on Jay and the coaching staff. And good grief - can you throw a screen to anyone else besides Thompson> They were waiting on that all day. Then the goal line play where Thompson almost got decapitated - WTF kind of play call is that? Ok, I digress. But none of that has to do with lck of talent. It's a lack of in game adjustments and awareness.  

 

What they need is to to be more mentally tough. And that starts at the HC level. Need to hold guys more accountable. And benching Norman for a series does not constitute holding guys accountable.   

 

 

 

[skins island connection]

8 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Colt Brennan set records too, that means nothing in translating to the Pros.  Are we really with a straight face going to say anyone coulda came in here and made Kirk a franchise QB?  We forget the "You Like That" game already where some of us thought at halftime Kirk was going to be out the NFL soon, or at least never start for us again?  I'm kinda getting tired of defending Gruden more then his record can, but he showed up in Cincy in 2011.  Below are the teams points scored ranking in the 3 years he was OC:

 

2011 - 18th

2012 - 12th

2013 - 6th

 

All playoff teams, Dalton also became a pro bowl QB under Gruden, second round pick.  I'm not a fan of the up down nature of this team, but I believe in his system, I've seen it work in two different teams now with the right peices.  Everyone wants to throw around names of elite coaches like BB, Tomlin, McCarthy, and Sean Payton, but they all have elite QBs to make up for when they are wrong, and they are all wrong eventually, they've all had dude games as well.  Like I've mentioned before, the one time we saw Jay with a franchise QB and a legit receiving core we went to the playoffs.  That's not a coincidence.

 

Yes, one time in his 5th year he got to the playoffs, and was promptly bounced out, and nothing since.

 

 

See above, and he was an assistant with his brother, OC in Cincy then HC here.  I'm not a fan of counting his Arena Bowl coaching experience, same time him winning championship I think you are wasting him as a glorified waterboy.  But he was with his brother in Tampa for 7 years, its not like he was there for two them all the sudden assistant HC somewhere, that's not what happened. He was hired here for developing Dalton and the Bengals offense into a top 10 unit, the hope is he could do the same for Griffin.  Instead he did it with his backup, who we just let walk out the door and replaced with someone in their mid-30s.  He's far from perfect, but I always wanted to see him with chance to have his own guy, draft someone, and see what he did with them without worrying about his defense being lower then 30th in the NFL.  How does anything he does with the offense matter when his defense has been giving up points like that since he's been here?  Cincy had top 10 units, that's they they went to the playoffs every year he was OC there.

I agree, the defense has let this team down more times than I care to mention, but its on him because he's the HC. And that's where the issue lies, in him being HC; maybe he has too much on his plate as HC, where he may be better suited being QB coach; I'm not sold on him being OC.

8 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

 

I don't know, you tell me?  How many times the offense score enough points to win and defense allow enough points to lose since he's been here?  Always on the wrong of coaching is anecdotal at best, stop it, he's not Belicheck I get it, but damn.

 

 

It's not a prepared problem if the offense is moving in the first half then not in the second, I think he's been gunshot dealing with Cousins and him all the sudden becoming a turnover machine out of nowhere.  I agree that he gets too conservative because he's scared to lose, but it took a while before he had a QB here he could trust not to keep turning the ball over.  I'm empathetic to this, I still think a lot of ya'll are just mad we got blown out on primetime again.  I can't with a straight face look at that offense and expect them to compete with Brees at home, especiallly if Alex is throwing ducks, I don't care how prepare or unprepared Gruden was.

I'm not high on Alex Smith either, I think the only way he's successful is if he's surrounded by top-tier receivers.

 

Settle down a little dude, I'm not trying to attack you or anything, I was just countering something you said.

I get it, you don't think the issue is with Gruden, and I am just saying I don't think he's capable at being HC, there are a lot of things to keep up with, especially in-game; if he had a singular responsibility he would probably be better, like QB coach, but he lacks the skills of HC, matching momentum, adjusting, etc.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

What’s most likely to happen?

 

Jay gets fired and takes everything he learned here as a first time head coach with an unconventional (that’s being nice) front office and becomes a successful head coach elsewhere somewhere down the line.

 

Personally, I don’t think he’s a great head coach.  But I do think he made palatable chicken salad out of chicken ****.  I’ve felt for years that the only reason why we’ve even been competitive was his offense in combination with both Kirk and McVay.  I think his biggest issue outside of just working at Redskins Park, is what seems to be an inability to hire a legit DC and probably is too cool with the players.  I don’t think for a second though he’s dumb enough to not know that.  But he can’t just change who he is here or he’d lose everyone.  He will be able to make those changes in his next stint.

 

I totally get why folks have issues with Jay given the almost predictable nature of the team’s performances under him.  But I still think it’s missing the forest for the trees.  If for whatever reason Jay is fired and Bruce is kept and things stay as they are in a Ashburn, good luck hiring someone worthwhile.  Not only can you not be confident in the brain trust at Redskins Park’s ability to select a coach but this job is not appealing right now.  There is nothing sexy about the way this team is setup.  

 

 

[DJHJR86]

Jay's definitely given himself enough rope over the years, but I do have to say that if the rumors about Allen being the major driving force for getting Smith that during Jay's tenure here he has yet to have his choice at quarterback.  He inherited Griffin/Cousins.  Similar situation with Smith.  

[JoggingGod]

10 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

I'm not ready to write him off without giving him the talent to compete with these teams that have just as much or more talent then we do

 

Lmao what? He doesn’t deserve one more year at all. He’s barely better than Jim Zorn 2.0

[goskins10]

28 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

 

Lmao what? He doesn’t deserve one more year at all. He’s barely better than Jim Zorn 2.0

 

I agree he does not deserve another year but c'mon. Jim Zorn? He has actually done a fairly decent job of bringing the team out of total hell. They have developed quite a few players which had not been done since Gibbs. Also, it takes a certain personality to work with this totally ****ed up FO organization (more on that late). 

 

It's clear he has reached his ceiling, at least here. But let's not get overly dramatic about it and at least appreciate him for what he has done. Just like Bruce (and I can't stand Bruce), not everything he has done is **** and he is exponentially better than Jim Zorn. For one thing he has a lot more experience at the assistant coaching level, and with a lot of success, than Jim Zorn. 

 

Back to personality. While I agree it's time to move on from Jay, I am just not sure who Dan would hire as GM or/and HC that has the right temperament to do the job and still get along with Dan. I really believe the root cause is that anyone with the right personality to get along with Dan is not someone who can excel as a head coach or GM for that matter. Can anyone here imagine Bill B working for Dan? How about Bill Parcels? Ted Thompson? What about Howie Roseman?  Joe Gibbs was the closest but to be fair the game passed him by, especially in terms of the the CAP and other mitigating factors beyond dealing with personalities which he is clearly good at. 

 

The only way this works is if Dan hires a GM that he ultimately will not get along with on a day to day basis. He would need to check his ego a bit. Something I am pretty certain he cannot do. 

 

But there is always hope until there is none. There is no hope for Jay at this point - and I say that with a heavy heart. I like jay. I think he is a great person with a really good football mind. For whatever reason he struggles to get guys ready to play consistently and when it matters most. But will we ever get the right leadership in place to be successful? I just do not see it as long as Dan owns the team. I hope he proves me wrong. I am tired of the crap we keep getting dealt. But that is the hope I am left with. Hoping Dan finally gets it right. 

 

 

[Renegade7]

3 hours ago, skins island connection said:

I agree, the defense has let this team down more times than I care to mention, but its on him because he's the HC. And that's where the issue lies, in him being HC; maybe he has too much on his plate as HC, where he may be better suited being QB coach; I'm not sold on him being OC.

 

Settle down a little dude, I'm not trying to attack you or anything, I was just countering something you said.

I get it, you don't think the issue is with Gruden, and I am just saying I don't think he's capable at being HC, there are a lot of things to keep up with, especially in-game; if he had a singular responsibility he would probably be better, like QB coach, but he lacks the skills of HC, matching momentum, adjusting, etc.

 

It's ok, I have trouble tempering my varied responses to varied responses, why I stepped away after game, just too crazy in here.

 

To clarify, its not that think jay isn't the problem, I don't think he's the main problem.  This is a jay thread but this is bigger then jay.  There have been reports about his frustration in personal decisions, so I don't think it's fair for posters to come in a pile on blaming him for that.

 

I'm perfectly fine criticizing him for what I believe he has control over, I do that a lot in game day thread, then try to step back the next day.