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    • By Destino in ES Coverage
         1
      We’re still doing this?  Absolutely!  Despite all the compelling reasons to just let everyone go home and enjoy and extended offseason, this is not an option.  The games must be played, and therefore we the long-suffering fans will feel compelled to watch.  Even games no reasonable football fan would choose to watch like, for example, today’s Redskins Jets game.   

      Today’s convergence of sadness features the 30th ranked scoring offense (Jets 14.4 ppg) versus the 32nd (Redskins 12.0 ppg).  The first team to 15 wins!  With no playoff aspirations the compelling story lines for this game are largely limited to watching young players (hopefully) develop.  Dwayne Haskins gets his first home start and Derrius Guice is back from injury.   
       
      My, reasonable, goals for today’s game:  
      1- Score a touchdown 
      2- Score more than 17 points.   
      3- Haskins throws for 200 yards or more with no interceptions  
      4- Guice runs the ball at least 10 times and finishes at 3.5 yards per carry and healthy.  
       
      Hoping for a win at this point feels like setting myself up for disappointment, so I’m happy to settle for an entertaining loss.  
       
      Special thanks to @pez for some excellent Guinness beef stew.  If you absolutely have to stand in a frozen parking lot at 9am, the best place to do it is at the Extremeskins Tailgate with Pez and @Huly.  Great fans, great people. 
       
      The Redskins have declared for the following players as inactive: 
      Paul Richardson  
      Colt McCoy 
      Deshazor Everett 
      Chris Thompson  
      Ross Pierschbacher 
      Vernon Davis  
      Tim Settle  
       
      The Jets declared the following players as inactive  
      Nate Hairston  
      Darryl Roberts  
      Paul Worrilow 
      Matthias Farley  
      CJ Mosley  
      Jordan Willis  
      Leo Koloamatangi 
       
      1st Quarter - Redskins 0 - 6 Jets
      If you wanted to sit in the cold and watch a football game with some Jets fans at FedEx, but were worried that there were not enough seats available, I have good news.  There’s plenty of space available, so come on down and prove you’re a real fan by sitting though this in person.
       
      Jets dominated the 1st quarter even though they only scored 6 points.  The reason being that Washington managed only 13 yards of offense and a single first down.  
       
      Question: Is it still a check down pass if the QB never looks at anyone else?
       
      2nd Quarter - Redskins 3 - 20 Jets
      The Jets have achieved an insurmountable 13 point lead early in the 2nd quarter.  All hope is lost.

      Is there a more perfect example of the Redskins offense than their first scoring drive in the 2nd quarter?  Interception gives the Redskins the ball on the Jets 16 yard line.  They proceed to march 10 yards backwards before kicking a field goal from the Jets 26.  It's perfect.  Two or three more field goals we can call it a day. 

      The Jets score again and if feels like they are are just piling on at this point.  Three touchdowns in the first half for them, just three points for the redskins.  Our streak of no touchdowns has now extended to 15 quarters. 
       
      3rd Quarter - Redskins 3 - 20 Jets
      There is a spider slowly descending from the ceiling in the press box and it's the most interesting thing that's happened during the third quarter of this game. 
       
      I have decided to allow the spider to live, provided it does not touch me.  I'm off to get some more caffeine. 

      4th Quarter - Redskins 17 - 34 Jets
      The first wave of Redskins fans, the few that are here, started streaming towards the exits after that 4th Jets touchdown.  As if the Jets didn't have this game wrapped up in the 2nd quarter. 
       
      Jet have now more than doubled their average points per game and have matched their season high of 34 points (and they missed two field goals in this game). 
       
      TOUCHDOWN REDSKINS!  THE DROUGHT IT OVER!  Guice took a short pass from Haskins  all the way to the house.  2 point conversion is successful on a pass from Haskins to Quinn. 
       
      The Redskins score another touchdown!  This feels like an embarrassment of riches, even if we are still certain to lose this game. 
       
      End of Game.
       
      Let's review those reasonable goals I mentioned earlier:
       
      1- Success.
      2- Close enough, I'm counting it
      3- Haskins did throw for over 200, but unfortunately did have an interception. 
      4- Guice was not given the opportunity to run the ball ten times today.  He did however score on a 45 yard TD pass and finish the game healthy.  I'll take it.
       
      Even though the Redskins lost, it was good to see the offense show some faint signs of life and end the streak of games without a TD.  The team looked competitive for much of the second half, and perhaps they could have made this a fun game if they carried that same energy throughout.  It was good to see Guice and Mclaurin show out today.  I think both of them have a future with this team that I look forward to seeing. 

       
       

       
       
       
       
       
Voice_of_Reason

Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

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I’m kind of interested in Jaguars OC Nathaniel Hackett. He seems to be doing a lot with not-so-great talent on that Jaguars O (minus Fournette).

 

Two guys I want the most are John DeFlippo and Matt LaFleur

Edited by JoggingGod

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Jay Gruden is just stuck in his ways. He has problems adjusting, as coaches will often do a few times in any particular game.

 

But the problem is deeper than Jay, and it has to be resolved. One of the biggest issues is communication in football; what players see on the field doesn't seem to make it to Gruden's ear, and he's looking at one particular aspect in a play while not seeing an adjustment that could be made on the opposite side of his line of sight.

Like a good stew, you can't just throw the ingredients in the pot and expect it to be good, it needs stirring. Gruden, the OC, DC, players, ALL have to talk to each other and come up with a solution to a problem in-game. Too often Gruden gets lost in the moment, and opponent's coaches are adjusting then, so Gruden is playing catch-up. I think if he just turns over play calling to someone else it will get better, and give him a chance to work on other issues; the same ol' same ol' isn't cutting it anymore.

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Gruden pretty much is what he is at this point.  I don't want him long term, but I don't want Allen to be the one who fires him.  I'd prefer Allen get fired first, and a new guy decides his fate.  In that scenario I'd be happy with Gruden for one more year provided:

 

He is forced to get an OC that will call plays.

He's judged upon preparation, adjustments, and situational calls.  

He's given a formalized role in personnel decisions.

 

As long as we have a top heavy roster, and Allen is calling the shots, I don't see this organization as an attractive place for an up & coming coach.  The coaches that we do develop have the good sense to get the hell out ASAP.  

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7 minutes ago, megared said:

Gruden pretty much is what he is at this point.  I don't want him long term, but I don't want Allen to be the one who fires him.  I'd prefer Allen get fired first, and a new guy decides his fate.  In that scenario I'd be happy with Gruden for one more year provided:

 

He is forced to get an OC that will call plays.

He's judged upon preparation, adjustments, and situational calls.  

He's given a formalized role in personnel decisions.

 

As long as we have a top heavy roster, and Allen is calling the shots, I don't see this organization as an attractive place for an up & coming coach.  The coaches that we do develop have the good sense to get the hell out ASAP.  

 

This is where i am.  Coaching change wont solve anything

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Bruce Allen and Gruden are tied at the hip at this point.  If one goes, the other goes.  I'd rather fire Bruce and keep Jay for one more season because outside of 2015-2016, Gruden really hasn't had a decent (and healthy) roster to work with.  

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What's there to evaluate? Year 5 and he still can't motivate his team to even compete, at home, in the home opener.. Dude will probably make a fine OC one day.. 

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If we get embarrassed at home I think it starts a downward spiral where Jay becomes a dead man walking and doesn't make it through the season.

 

He's a really good offensive coordinator but he doesn't seem to be a good leader of men, he still has time to change that perception/reality.

 

 

Edited by JSSkinz
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2 hours ago, zoony said:

This is where i am.  Coaching change wont solve anything

I disagree.  A better coach would make things better. 

 

A better coach won't come here with Bruce in place. 

 

But you can't convince me that a better coach couldn't get this roster to perform more consistently than this coach.  Not after last week.  I was hoping after week 1.  I'm convinced after week 2, Jay doesn't have what it takes to be a successful NFL head coach. 

 

So, coaching could fix things.  But you won't get better coaching until you get rid of Bruce.

 

 

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I honestly can't wait for Tomlin to "resign" this offseason, because the Steelers are never going to "fire" a coach. He'll take a year off and do tv. And then Snyder will make him the highest paid coach in history. And then he'll go 5-11.

 

 

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I'm of the opinion that at any given time, there are maybe three "great" coaches in the league. At the moment, that list is Bellichik, McVey, and - frankly - Andy Reid.

 

Andy Reid might be the greatest football mind of his generation with the inexplicable flaw that he panics in the playoffs.

 

Aside from that, I don't think there is much difference between the Gurden brothers and the Tomlin and Garrett and Pederson and whoever else.

 

Occasionally, there is a truly horrible coach. Weirdly, we've had two of those under Snyder (Spurrier and Zorn).

 

But for the most part, all these dudes are the same.

 

I also go back to Brian Billick. His career shows that everything we want to believe about coaches is wrong..

 

He seemed to have reinvented offensive football with that 98 Vikings team with Moss. So, he gets the Ravens gig. And their offense always sucked....but they won a Super Bowl with the greatest defense ever. And then he kept trying and failing to build up the offense and they basically stayed above average forever after that. And then he got fired and no one ever wanted to hire him again.

Edited by Lombardi's_kid_brother
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3 hours ago, megared said:

Gruden pretty much is what he is at this point.  I don't want him long term, but I don't want Allen to be the one who fires him.  I'd prefer Allen get fired first, and a new guy decides his fate.  In that scenario I'd be happy with Gruden for one more year provided:

 

He is forced to get an OC that will call plays.

He's judged upon preparation, adjustments, and situational calls.  

He's given a formalized role in personnel decisions.

 

As long as we have a top heavy roster, and Allen is calling the shots, I don't see this organization as an attractive place for an up & coming coach.  The coaches that we do develop have the good sense to get the hell out ASAP.  

 

I like a lot of this, but don't like creating stipulations for coaches. If you retain him as the coach, he should decide who the OC is and whether he's delegating play-calling duties. I don't believe in micro-managing at any level, so he should have full autonomy to run his team however he wants. He's ultimately judged for it, so don't build in an excuse that he can make later. 

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46 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I disagree.  A better coach would make things better. 

 

A better coach won't come here with Bruce in place. 

 

But you can't convince me that a better coach couldn't get this roster to perform more consistently than this coach.  Not after last week.  I was hoping after week 1.  I'm convinced after week 2, Jay doesn't have what it takes to be a successful NFL head coach. 

 

So, coaching could fix things.  But you won't get better coaching until you get rid of Bruce.

 

 

 

Better for this season, but not better long term. 

 

As long as Bruce is the final say on roster construction, we aren't going to be competitive.  And allowing Bruce to fire/hire another coach would signal to me that his leash is longer than we could have ever hoped.  

 

Let's be honest:  what desirable coach would take this job, knowing Alex Smith is his guy through at least 2020?  Not to mention, we have some very expensive guys that aren't justifying their cap numbers, at the moment.  

 

As constructed, this is a mediocre team that lacks the personnel to compete with playoff teams.  If week 2 is the norm, no amount of scheming is going to overcome the fact that our O-line isn't particularly good at run blocking or pass pro, for example.   

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How well would another coach do with this squad?  Does anyone here believe that another coach could win 11+ games with this roster?  How about 10 games?  I don’t blame Jay for this sorry roster, I blame Snyder.  He was willing to pay a super-premium for Josh Norman, from another team, who gets beat like drum regularly but was unwilling to pay market value to Garcon, Jackson or Kirk Cousins.

 

I was very impressed with the job Jay Gruden did last season when the squad was riddled with injuries.  Especially when they were mathematically out of it but kept on battling and were competitive every week, I think holding a squad together and keeping them focused on winning, under those circumstances, requires good coaching. I think we should keep 2017 in mind when considering Jay's tenure.

 

In my mind, Jay really became the coach of the Redskins in August of 2015 when he with SM's help told Dan Snyder and his sock puppet Allen that Cousins was the real QB.  Jay managed to coach a badly unbalanced and in my view outmanned roster to a .500 record for 3 years.  Unfortunately for Jay, he will not have Kirk Cousins to help him carry the 2018 team to respectability, Snyder provided Smith instead.

 

If the Skins finish less than 8-8 and the stands are half empty in December Snyder is going to fire Gruden and then dust off and stoke up his trusty old marketing calliope and try to sell snake oil to us again, the rubes he has skinned so many times already.  I don't think the charade will fool me this time and all know better than to buy the surplus peanuts.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubVw_4w0ppM

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45 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I'm of the opinion that at any given time, there are maybe three "great" coaches in the league. At the moment, that list is Bellichik, McVey, and - frankly - Andy Reid.

 

Andy Reid might be the greatest football mind of his generation with the inexplicable flaw that he panics in the playoffs.

 

Aside from that, I don't think there is much difference between the Gurden brothers and the Tomlin and Garrett and Pederson and whoever else.

 

Occasionally, there is a truly horrible coach. Weirdly, we've had two of those under Snyder (Spurrier and Zorn).

 

But for the most part, all these dudes are the same.

 

I also go back to Brian Billick. His career shows that everything we want to believe about coaches is wrong..

 

He seemed to have reinvented offensive football with that 98 Vikings team with Moss. So, he gets the Ravens gig. And their offense always sucked....but they won a Super Bowl with the greatest defense ever. And then he kept trying and failing to build up the offense and they basically stayed above average forever after that. And then he got fired and no one ever wanted to hire him again.

 

Good post.  I am not in the fire Jay camp but to play along with some of the discussion by others.  

 

If you are looking at coordinators, the idea that they are great X and O people or not doesn't seem to be the operative point typically as to being a great coach.  The leadership-team building combination seems to be the bigger part of the formula. 

 

Lets take Deflippo. What do we know about him as a guy?  He's clearly is a good offensive mind.   But heck so was Norv Turner.  Gregg Williams is arguably a good D coordinator but HC?  Plenty of examples of that.  So in scoping out the next HC, I'd zone in on those traits.  Reading about Sean McVay for example, he's an obsessive detail guy, who has studied every facet of coaching like Rain Man and no stone goes unturned.  Gibbs was a gritty leader aside from being an X and O guy in his first stint.  

 

Back to Jay.  Two things, my take is I'd let the season play out before judging for good. Yeah I get he's been here for a long time.  But how do we know now that they aren't going 10-6 for example?  And if the FO decides to move on -- its meaningless if Bruce is still here.   You could argue ditto if Dan is still here but we are stuck with the dude unless he sells.

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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I think I've made this analogy before but anyone who has worked in a larger company has seen this scenario play out. The best salesman in the company is Joe. Eventually Joe is promoted to VP of Sales. Joe is fired within a year because sales have collapsed. Instead of rewarding Joe with more money for being a great salesperson, you promote him to a job that has nothing to do with his skillset. You lose his sales, because he stops selling and everyone else does worse or quits, because he's a bad manager.

 

Yet, the NFL keeps promoting offensive and defensive coordinators to head coach.

 

I read that book on Vince Lombardi a few years ago, and one story jumped out at me. When he was a high school teacher, he was asked to coach the basketball team. He had never actually seen a basketball game at that point. He read the original rules of basketball that James Naismith wrote. And then he coached a team to an undefeated season.

 

My parents went to a teeny tiny college in West Virginia. They moved the very successful tennis coach to the position of head basketball coach. And he ended having one of the top programs in the country at that level. From what I can tell, his prior basketball experience was coaching one of the smallest high school in the state.

 

https://hilltoppersports.com/coaches.aspx?rc=131

 

Someday, someone is going to make, like, the greatest event planner in the country the head coach of the Chargers and it's going to revolutionize the sport.

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2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

But you can't convince me that a better coach couldn't get this roster to perform more consistently than this coach.  Not after last week.  I was hoping after week 1.  I'm convinced after week 2, Jay doesn't have what it takes to be a successful NFL head coach. 

 

 

What gets me is Jay DID Coach exceptionally well through all the injuries last year. He had the team playing hard EVERY WEEK. So I though..ok, here we go!!! !st game YEA!!! Here we go!!! Then I said on here before the Colts game that I wanted to see consecutive effort..then I'd be sold..

 

So here comes the Colts game and like the player said "it was low energy". I have been reading and I find NOWHERE where the No Energy statement was explained. That whole narrative seems to have died or been killed by the team.

 

Why did the team come out flat? Jay should be asked that and the questioner should not accept "The Colts were more motivated". Well  WHY weren't The Skins More Motivated???

 

I sure hope that was a REAL wakeup call and we'll see a motivated Team Sunday. I don't think we'll win but I hope we play hard for 45 minutes. Losing to a more talented team is no disgrace, laying down or sleep walking is. That is all I'm saying. COACH, PLEASE LIGHT A FIRE in your players!!

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19 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I think I've made this analogy before but anyone who has worked in a larger company has seen this scenario play out. The best salesman in the company is Joe. Eventually Joe is promoted to VP of Sales. Joe is fired within a year because sales have collapsed. Instead of rewarding Joe with more money for being a great salesperson, you promote him to a job that has nothing to do with his skillset. You lose his sales, because he stops selling and everyone else does worse or quits, because he's a bad manager.

 

Yet, the NFL keeps promoting offensive and defensive coordinators to head coach.

 

I read that book on Vince Lombardi a few years ago, and one story jumped out at me. When he was a high school teacher, he was asked to coach the basketball team. He had never actually seen a basketball game at that point. He read the original rules of basketball that James Naismith wrote. And then he coached a team to an undefeated season.

 

My parents went to a teeny tiny college in West Virginia. They moved the very successful tennis coach to the position of head basketball coach. And he ended having one of the top programs in the country at that level. From what I can tell, his prior basketball experience was coaching one of the smallest high school in the state.

 

https://hilltoppersports.com/coaches.aspx?rc=131

 

Someday, someone is going to make, like, the greatest event planner in the country the head coach of the Chargers and it's going to revolutionize the sport.

 

Coordinators of offense or defense manage or coach the position coaches under them so promoting a coordinator to a head coach is in part because of their analytical skills but their success is also dependent ability to be a coach or coaches.  I agree with you that the key ingredient needed is leadership and management skill not technical knowledge but being a successful coordinator that demands and get excellence from the position coaches in his charge is a good way to demonstrate leadership and managerial talent.

2 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

What gets me is Jay DID Coach exceptionally well through all the injuries last year. He had the team playing hard EVERY WEEK. So I though..ok, here we go!!! !st game YEA!!! Here we go!!! Then I said on here before the Colts game that I wanted to see consecutive effort..then I'd be sold..

 

So here comes the Colts game and like the player said "it was low energy". I have been reading and I find NOWHERE where the No Energy statement was explained. That whole narrative seems to have died or been killed by the team.

 

Why did the team come out flat? Jay should be asked that and the questioner should not accept "The Colts were more motivated". Well  WHY weren't The Skins More Motivated???

 

I sure hope that was a REAL wakeup call and we'll see a motivated Team Sunday. I don't think we'll win but I hope we play hard for 45 minutes. Losing to a more talented team is no disgrace, laying down or sleep walking is. That is all I'm saying. COACH, PLEASE LIGHT A FIRE in your players!!

5

 

Amen!  I agree completely on how well Jay performed last season but the Skins give a really listless performance on Sunday.  It appears they got full of themselves after thumping the Cardinals and thought they were better than they are and that is on Jay.  They better fight like junkyard dogs against the Packers.

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38 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I think I've made this analogy before but anyone who has worked in a larger company has seen this scenario play out. The best salesman in the company is Joe. Eventually Joe is promoted to VP of Sales. Joe is fired within a year because sales have collapsed. Instead of rewarding Joe with more money for being a great salesperson, you promote him to a job that has nothing to do with his skillset. You lose his sales, because he stops selling and everyone else does worse or quits, because he's a bad manager.

There's actually a term for this, it's called the Peter Principal.  From Wikipedia:

The Peter principle is a concept in management developed by Laurence J. Peter, which observes that people in a hierarchy tend to rise to their "level of incompetence". In other words, employees are promoted based on their success in previous jobs until they reach a level at which they are no longer competent, as skills in one job do not necessarily translate to another. The concept was enunciated in the 1969 book The Peter Principle by Peter and Raymond Hull.[1]

 

It's about the only thing I remember from business school.  And it's about the most true thing I've ever learned in any schooling I ever had. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

What gets me is Jay DID Coach exceptionally well through all the injuries last year. He had the team playing hard EVERY WEEK. So I though..ok, here we go!!! !st game YEA!!! Here we go!!! Then I said on here before the Colts game that I wanted to see consecutive effort..then I'd be sold..

 

Is that really true, though? They came out and were completely whooped by Dallas and then San Diego with the season on the line after they had beaten the Seahawks. 

 

In 2016, which is the season I use to grade Gruden more than 2017, they had 3 chances against either bad teams or uninterested teams to make the playoffs, and they lost all three games (Arizona, Carolina and NYG.)  A better coach wins 11 or 12 games with that 2016 team, I'm absolutely convinced of that.  The defense was suspect talent wise, but it was SO BADLY COACHED, it almost didn't matter who was playing.  Barry could take the '85 bear's defense and have made them pedestrian.

 

The trend of Gruden's teams under-performing has been every season since 2015. 

 

There's no indication that he's going to get better at it. 

 

1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said:

How well would another coach do with this squad?  Does anyone here believe that another coach could win 11+ games with this roster?  How about 10 games?  I don’t blame Jay for this sorry roster, I blame Snyder.  He was willing to pay a super-premium for Josh Norman, from another team, who gets beat like drum regularly but was unwilling to pay market value to Garcon, Jackson or Kirk Cousins.

Let me flip the script, do you think if Gruden was the HC of the Eagles last year, and they lose their MVP caliber QB, HOF LT, starting RB, and 2 or 3 defensive starter, is there any chance they win the SB? I doubt it. Frankly, I doubt they win one more game after Wentz goes down.

 

And I think there are several coaches that could do better with this squad as constructed than Gruden. 

 

1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said:

I was very impressed with the job Jay Gruden did last season when the squad was riddled with injuries.  Especially when they were mathematically out of it but kept on battling and were competitive every week, I think holding a squad together and keeping them focused on winning, under those circumstances, requires good coaching. I think we should keep 2017 in mind when considering Jay's tenure.

Yeah, they battled and beat the 2 worst QBs in the NFL.  Great.  After the season was over.  Whooppee.

 

1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said:

In my mind, Jay really became the coach of the Redskins in August of 2015 when he with SM's help told Dan Snyder and his sock puppet Allen that Cousins was the real QB.  Jay managed to coach a badly unbalanced and in my view outmanned roster to a .500 record for 3 years.  Unfortunately for Jay, he will not have Kirk Cousins to help him carry the 2018 team to respectability, Snyder provided Smith instead.

I know you're just all over Snyder, but it wasn't Snyder who bungled the Cousins thing.  It was Bruce, it was Bruce's ego, and it was stupid.  Synder's problem is he didn't fire Bruce.  But Bruce was the person behind the negotiations and the trade.  Every beat reporter has said that, and Snyder had virtually nothing to do with it. 

 

1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said:

If the Skins finish less than 8-8 and the stands are half empty in December Snyder is going to fire Gruden and then dust off and stoke up his trusty old marketing calliope and try to sell snake oil to us again, the rubes he has skinned so many times already.  I don't think the charade will fool me this time and all know better than to buy the surplus peanuts.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubVw_4w0ppM

I'm actually convinced that fans won't buy anything Snyder sells until he hires a real GM, who can hire his own coach, and then they post 10+ winning seasons at least 2 or 3 seasons in a row.  That's what it's going to take for fans to restore confidence in this organization, and even that might not be enough. 

 

 

2 hours ago, megared said:

 

 

Better for this season, but not better long term. 

 

As long as Bruce is the final say on roster construction, we aren't going to be competitive.  And allowing Bruce to fire/hire another coach would signal to me that his leash is longer than we could have ever hoped.  

 

Let's be honest:  what desirable coach would take this job, knowing Alex Smith is his guy through at least 2020?  Not to mention, we have some very expensive guys that aren't justifying their cap numbers, at the moment.  

 

As constructed, this is a mediocre team that lacks the personnel to compete with playoff teams.  If week 2 is the norm, no amount of scheming is going to overcome the fact that our O-line isn't particularly good at run blocking or pass pro, for example.   

Bruce is an idiot.  But Jay can also be a bad HC. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.  Also Bruce the idiot hired Jay. 

 

I disagree that they can't compete with playoff teams.  I think they can.  And I think they will, at least a few times this year.  But they don't have the leadership to do it consistently.  And that rests with the HC. 

 

Also, all the heat that Alex is taking, I think some of that has to go to Gruden for some really conservative game plans.  Also, Smith has been a winner in this league for a while, whether or not he checks down a lot or not.  Cousins had a "check down charlie" reputation under Gruden, and he goes to Minny, and that's gone.  Alex threw deep last year, came here, and now he's back to checking it down.  At least some of that has to be offensive philosophy 

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9 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I think I've made this analogy before but anyone who has worked in a larger company has seen this scenario play out. The best salesman in the company is Joe. Eventually Joe is promoted to VP of Sales. Joe is fired within a year because sales have collapsed. Instead of rewarding Joe with more money for being a great salesperson, you promote him to a job that has nothing to do with his skillset. You lose his sales, because he stops selling and everyone else does worse or quits, because he's a bad manager.

 

Yet, the NFL keeps promoting offensive and defensive coordinators to head coach.

I see your point and it's not a bad one. But I would point out a few big problems with applying that analogy to the Head Coach/Coordinator scenario.

 

1. A Coordinator essentially runs half the team. When promoted, he has to run the whole team. It is a harder job, there are additional responsibilities. But it is primarily the same job. Selling and managing a work force are two completely different tasks. It's not that surprising the Joe being great at one wouldn't translate to being good at the other.

 

2. A Coordinator can keep running the half of the tea (offense/defense) that he specialized in after being promoted to being a HC. Your Joe suffered because Joe was no longer selling, but that Head Coach would still have himself to call plays for the offense, for example.

 

3. While you might be able to keep Joe happy with a little more money, there is no way to keep any Coordinators (save Josh McDaniels) for long without them getting a bad job somewhere. So Joe wouldn't be selling for your company either way.

 

4. The implication of your analogy seems to be that everything was going well with Joe's company. In the NFL, there is no HC job unless the team is losing enough to get rid of the old coach. The notion of messing everything up by promoting Joe doesn't really apply tot eh NFL example. 

 

Again, I get you general point and it's not without merit. But while your company should have given Joe some extra vacation time and a better commission rate and enjoyed their success, that analogy doesn't apply to what an NFL team should do at all. 

 

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27 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Let me flip the script, do you think if Gruden was the HC of the Eagles last year, and they lose their MVP caliber QB, HOF LT, starting RB, and 2 or 3 defensive starter, is there any chance they win the SB? I doubt it. Frankly, I doubt they win one more game after Wentz goes down.

1

 

I like Jay's chances as I said he did a very good job of keeping them fighting when badly depleted.

 

27 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

And I think there are several coaches that could do better with this squad as constructed than Gruden. 

 

 

Okay, who do you have in mind and what would you expect them to do with this roster.

 

27 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I know you're just all over Snyder, but it wasn't Snyder who bungled the Cousins thing.  It was Bruce, it was Bruce's ego, and it was stupid.  Synder's problem is he didn't fire Bruce.  But Bruce was the person behind the negotiations and the trade.  Every beat reporter has said that, and Snyder had virtually nothing to do with it. 

 

 

I think Allen is Snyder's sock puppet and you think Snyder lets Allen run the team.  None of us are privy to their private discussions nor has anyone with real insider information on how things work brunt their bridges and explained things to us.  I believe Snyder still runs his team and its Allen's job to convince us that isn't the case.  If beat reporters are convinced Allen is in charge or more likely find it essential to help Allen maintain that fiction to get access and remain effective beat writers for the Skins so be it but I'm convinced Dan Snyder owns the band and calls the tunes and everyone in his employ dances.  I blame Snyder for losing Kirk.  If Kirk wins a Super Bowl in Minny I think Snyder is going to be the most surprised guy in the NFL, and maybe the only surprised guy in the NFL.

 

27 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

I'm actually convinced that fans won't buy anything Snyder sells until he hires a real GM, who can hire his own coach, and then they post 10+ winning seasons at least 2 or 3 seasons in a row.  That's what it's going to take for fans to restore confidence in this organization, and even that might not be enough. 

 

 

I agree completely.

 

27 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

Bruce is an idiot.  But Jay can also be a bad HC. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.  Also Bruce the idiot hired Jay. 

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It's possible that Bruce is a servile toady but not an idiot.  For the record, I would happily serve as Snyder's servile toady for the millions Allens receives annually.  As for Jay, I would like to see him have a chance with a better roster before dismissing him.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I disagree that they can't compete with playoff teams.  I think they can.  And I think they will, at least a few times this year.  But they don't have the leadership to do it consistently.  And that rests with the HC. 

 

 

You must see something in this roster I don't see.  The OL can't run block to save their souls.  The wide receivers have not been effective thus far.  I don't know what to think of Smith yet.  I only saw him play a few times over the years with SF & KC so I didn't really form an opinion.  I guess I was led to expect him to be more like Kirk from the talk here after the trade.  Thus far he hasn't been as aggressive as Kirk but for the moment I don't know if he will contribute more or less than Cousins

27 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Also, all the heat that Alex is taking, I think some of that has to go to Gruden for some really conservative game plans.  Also, Smith has been a winner in this league for a while, whether or not he checks down a lot or not.  Cousins had a "check down charlie" reputation under Gruden, and he goes to Minny, and that's gone.  Alex threw deep last year, came here, and now he's back to checking it down.  At least some of that has to be offensive philosophy 

 

I agree it is premature to criticize Smith.  I only saw Alex play against the Skins last season but I know he had a very talented deep threat in Hill in KC, the absence of a dominant deep threat in DC might have made him more cautious and maybe for good reason.  As for Cousins, he has Diggs and Thielen to work throw to in Minnesota and because of their dominance, Kirk has become bolder.  I don't think it is the coaches I think it is the targets.  Thielen is much bigger than the defenders and is going to win 50/50 balls and Diggs is so athletic he's going to best defenders also.  It would be unfair to compare Alex's situation in DC and Kirk's in MN.

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2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Bruce is an idiot.  But Jay can also be a bad HC. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.  Also Bruce the idiot hired Jay. 

 

Agreed.  I'm just of the mindset that this roster is so poorly constructed that it completely muddies the water.  There's nothing that I would like more than to purge the entire Tampa connection, but assuming we get a new GM (fingers crossed), I don't want a guy that comes in already having identified who he wants.  We tried that with Shanahan and we're still to some degree affected by that culture of cronyism.  

 

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I disagree that they can't compete with playoff teams.  I think they can.  And I think they will, at least a few times this year.  But they don't have the leadership to do it consistently.  And that rests with the HC. 

 

I don't think we have a strong enough roster to realistically compete for our division, let alone consecutively beat three very good teams in the NFC, followed by the best team in the AFC.  Throughout the season, we'll win some games we probably shouldn't, and likewise lose some games we probably shouldn't.  But I don't think anyone has delusions of the 'sky being the limit' for this team.  For all of Jay's flaws, I think the roster is more of a constraint than his shortcomings as a coach.    

 

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Also, all the heat that Alex is taking, I think some of that has to go to Gruden for some really conservative game plans.  Also, Smith has been a winner in this league for a while, whether or not he checks down a lot or not.  Cousins had a "check down charlie" reputation under Gruden, and he goes to Minny, and that's gone.  Alex threw deep last year, came here, and now he's back to checking it down.  At least some of that has to be offensive philosophy 

 

I'm not trying to pile on Smith...I just don't see any potential head coach looking at him as the QB of their dreams.  Limitations aside, most guys would prefer to develop a young QB, and his contract commits the team to him until at least 2020.  And for Alex to be really good, you need a level of talent around him that we don't currently have.  To his credit, he's probably good enough that we won't organically be bad enough to draft the top QB in the next few drafts...which is good for him, but bad for us long term.   

Edited by megared

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5 minutes ago, megared said:

  There's nothing that I would like more than to purge the entire Tampa connection, but assuming we get a new GM (fingers crossed), I don't want a guy that comes in already having identified who he wants.  We tried that with Shanahan and we're still to some degree affected by that culture of cronyism.  

Allen did it with Gruden as well. He knew that's who he was going to hire all along and the whole coaching "search" was a sham.

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14 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Allen did it with Gruden as well. He knew that's who he was going to hire all along and the whole coaching "search" was a sham.

 

Don't forget the legendary Gruden/Haslett dream combo...

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This site put up an article (that I first saw courtesy of Wildbunny's Breaking News Forum) saying the criticisms and "firing" talk about Coach Gruden are overdone and premature.

 

The author of this article seems to want to keep the focus on Jay on the here and now... the first two weeks of the season. While his critics want to look at the totality of Gruden's five year stint.

 

Is he right or wrong? Here's the article:

 

https://riggosrag.com/2018/09/21/redskins-gruden-rhetoric-premature/

 

 

Edited by SkinsGuy

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