Renegade7 Posted April 6, 2019 Author Share Posted April 6, 2019 43 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said: I don’t remember. What did I say? It came up without either of us staking an official position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 There is no such thing as an objective theocratic view.... good vs evil should be judged by outcomes, but outcomes are subject so good and evil are subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 6, 2019 Author Share Posted April 6, 2019 13 minutes ago, No Excuses said: Labeling homosexuality for instance as a sin based on a moral lawgiver tells us nothing about why it is wrong, why it should be penalized and why humans should not engage in this practice, except that God says so. I suppose this is why we heard bogus arguments such as homosexuals will ruin the sanctity of marriage and result in greater instability of human relationships. We know that data does not support any logical argument that homosexuality is bad for human society. In the objective theocratic view, homosexuality is wrong for society, data and facts be damned, because "God" said so. Yet, human societies that have decriminalized homosexuality and legalized gay marriage, rate higher on indexes of human happiness, creativity and freedom of the individual person. Some Bible archeologist and theologians believe the reason homosexuality was outlawed at the time it was was because the early Jews needed as many people making kids as possible to raise an army to defend themselves and conquer the holy land. Laws and rules were accumulating at Mt. Siani, but fast forward and Jesus had a habit of reaching out to people the parishes normally wouldnt. Anyone can correct me on this, but it looks like Jesus in NT had chances to blast homosexuality but instead said he was not here to blow up the rules of marriage. Right now, some people are just uncomfortable with homosexuality, more so then past societies in human history. Them hiding behind the Bible is not a free pass, sametime the Bible should be kept in context of when it was put together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 28 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: good vs evil should be judged by outcomes I’m not sure that’s right though. If I buy my kid a puppy but the puppy bites him, my intentions were still good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 Just now, Sacks 'n' Stuff said: I’m not sure that’s right though. If I buy my kid a puppy but the puppy bites him, my intentions were still good. I mean, if the child dies evil happened. He he learns not to poke a dog with a stick... good happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 6, 2019 Author Share Posted April 6, 2019 @London Kev two things, I recommend looking into difference between old testament and new testament since you brought up slavery rules as making you uncomfortable. Also, it's entirely possible we aren't talking about multiple different gods when the three monotheist religions all derive from the same one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 6, 2019 Author Share Posted April 6, 2019 4 hours ago, Corcaigh said: Stephen Fry on the subject: That is arguable one of the most arrogant things I've ever seen. Bible says repeatedly how frustrated God was with the fact humans are constantly battling between good and evil within themselves. We had a chance at Eden and blew it. No way he's a believer if hed say that real talk, that he wouldn't want to go to heaven and this wouldn't mind going to hell on some ass backwards principal of his. There's a lot to be bothered by in this world, but let's be clear a lot of it is our own damn fault. He mentions child bone cancer, but who is poluting the planet to death right now? Not God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 6, 2019 Author Share Posted April 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said: Ok once again, this argument makes no sense... ”The world around me is too amazing to come from nothing. It had to come from something even more amazing... that I can’t see... that came from nothing.” Given how long it took for matter to reach a recognizable form, entirely possible universe created God and God went to tweaking the universe in his image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Given how long it took for matter to reach a recognizable form, How long did did it take? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 22 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: There's a lot to be bothered by in this world, but let's be clear a lot of it is our own damn fault. He mentions child bone cancer, but who is poluting the planet to death right now? Not God. He doesn’t actually think God is a bad guy. He doesn’t think God is anything. He doesn’t think God exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 6, 2019 Author Share Posted April 6, 2019 7 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: How long did did it take? Just under 400k years for electrons to start orbiting around nuclei to make atoms from what I've read. First stars I think about 250 million years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCSaints_fan Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 12 hours ago, Renegade7 said: Depends on if one believes the laws of physics in their need for exactness spontaneously popped into existence. Would these laws need to already be in effect during inflation in order for inflation to occur? We witness houses being built and garments being weaved, So when we find these things, it is reasonable to assume that someone created them. We haven't witnessed a universe being created. So how could we make distinction between a created universe vs. an uncreated one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 6, 2019 Author Share Posted April 6, 2019 13 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said: He doesn’t actually think God is a bad guy. He doesn’t think God is anything. He doesn’t think God exists. I noticed that, just feels like a wasted opportunity if you did talk to God to blast him. I don't agree with every inch of what people want to attribute to Gods plan, but id have better questions. His answer sounded frustrated or agnostic, id expect to immediately question myself if I went through life acting like God doesn't exist then standing right in front of Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 6, 2019 Author Share Posted April 6, 2019 (edited) 44 minutes ago, DCSaints_fan said: We witness houses being built and garments being weaved, So when we find these things, it is reasonable to assume that someone created them. We haven't witnessed a universe being created. So how could we make distinction between a created universe vs. an uncreated one? Id say we don't need to because what we are in we've decided to call a universe. We are trying to make sense of something we don't fully understand. Sound familiar? : ) I'm one to believe the universe expands and contracts starting over and over, this opening up for multiple universes. This is based on what we think a universe to be. But laws of physics are real. Me personally, them being so sensitive and need for exactness is good argument for intelligent design. We are finding we aren't always right about physics, does that mean we are wrong or just don't know what's right yet? Edited April 6, 2019 by Renegade7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 2 hours ago, Renegade7 said: I noticed that, just feels like a wasted opportunity if you did talk to God to blast him. Oh... yeah. True dat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: I mean, if the child dies evil happened. He he learns not to poke a dog with a stick... good happened. Gassing 6 million people in order to reduce economic and agrelicultural stress on a nation good. Herein lies the problem with utilitarian ethics. Edited April 6, 2019 by AsburySkinsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, AsburySkinsFan said: Gassing 6 million people in order to reduce economic and agrelicultural stress on a nation good. Herein lies the problem with utilitarian ethics. How well did that work out in the long run for the leaders enacting the policy? There is no conflict. Outcomes... Edited April 6, 2019 by CousinsCowgirl84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 3 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: How well did that work out in the long run for the leaders enacting the policy? There is no conflict. Outcomes... Then you will NEVER be able to detetmine the ethics of ANYTHING because all you need to do is push the equation down another generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 Just now, AsburySkinsFan said: Then you will NEVER be able to detetmine the ethics of ANYTHING because all you need to do is push the equation down another generation. Nope. Hitler was done with within a single generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 Just now, CousinsCowgirl84 said: Nope. Hitler was done with within a single generation. Wrong The medical discoveries learned in the camps through the detailed notes on the tourture frame much of what we know about medicine today. Ever wonder how we know things like the rule of 3's, or how long a human brain can go without oxygen without lasting damage? All from the camps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 (edited) Im sorry, I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you arguing that ultimately the concentration camps were a good thing? Or just that good can come from evil? Im not sure how the ethics of concentration camps are debatable. If you are supposing an argument that because in the long run the gassing of innocent people led to the development of new technologies it could be argued that gassing people was ethically sound, that is a dumb argument. The bad from the original sin outweighs the benefit. Also, for there to be any real benefit in the long term you'd have to assume that obtaining the technology would have been impossible without the slaughter of millions of innocent people. Edited April 6, 2019 by CousinsCowgirl84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 24 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: How well did that work out in the long run for the leaders enacting the policy? There is no conflict. Outcomes... By that logic, all the people who got gassed probably had it coming. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said: By that logic, all the people who got gassed probably had it coming. Not really. Your addition is way off. We all die. Those people are looked at as victims and in some cases, heroes. Not many people say that about Hitler. Edited April 6, 2019 by CousinsCowgirl84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 (edited) 24 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: Im sorry, I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you arguing that ultimately the concentration camps were a good thing? Or just that good can come from evil? Im not sure how the ethics of concentration camps are debatable. If you are supposing an argument that because in the long run the gassing of innocent people led to the development of new technologies it could be argued that gassing people was ethically sound, that is a dumb argument. The bad from the original sin outweighs the benefit. Also, for there to be any real benefit in the long term you'd have to assume that obtaining the technology would have been impossible without the slaughter of millions of innocent people. I'm just showing how stupid utilitarian ethics is by demonstratingbthe absudities that get accepted because the results are positive. I also think it's interesting that you use "the original sins" to describe the gassing but in utilitarian (results based) there is no such thing as a sin absent of the result. The question is which results you value and which you don't. Edited April 6, 2019 by AsburySkinsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Renegade7 said: We had a chance at Eden and blew it. Who do you mean "We" Kemo Sabe? THAT'S your justification of why your God allows bone cancer in children and the most horrible parasites? A woman made out of the rib bone or a dude, the dude, and a talking snake misbehaved in a garden? And that's why more than 10 million small children (many of whom have never heard of your god) die every year. And there's nothing an omnipotent god can do about it. Totally makes sense. Edited April 6, 2019 by Corcaigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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