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NFL.com: Kirk Cousins tops biggest contracts (Special rule---you can refer to the Redskins in this thread---M.E.T.)


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I do think alot of his issues this season in particular were his OC. I mean that to say besides the things we already know he doesn't do well. Beyond Kirk's usual issues, his OC (both of them) did him zero favors. He actually got better play calling and game management from here believe it or not. Im starting to wonder if the people who sit in the room with him making the game plan are falling for his brain. The dude can think through the game of football for sure. Im just not sure he can play as fast as his mind deciphers it. And that may be part of where they are going wrong in game planning. He has the mind and arm of an Elite QB at times. He just cant keep up with it for long. 

 

Do you guys think his stats are more empty than other QBs? Or have we in general made too much of the accumulated stats? He reminds me of Romo in that way. Less of a play maker, but can wow you with numbers like its nothing. Its not hard to believe that he would have HOF numbers by the end of his career if he can keep a starting job. 

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11 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

 

Do you guys think his stats are more empty than other QBs? Or have we in general made too much of the accumulated stats? He reminds me of Romo in that way. Less of a play maker, but can wow you with numbers like its nothing. Its not hard to believe that he would have HOF numbers by the end of his career if he can keep a starting job. 

 

I don't think his stats are empty, but I also think in the modern version of the NFL compiling volume stats is not always the best way to judge a QB.  Cousins is a fine QB, All my criticism of him aside, I still stick with the "You can win with him, but not because of him" mantra.  I think if you just look at his line/box score at the end of the season without actually have watched him play you likely come away with a higher opinion on his overall play.  He will win you some games, lose you some games, but at the end of the day there are things missing from his game that keeps him out of that higher tier of QB's.  I still think he plays a little to robotic, you mentioned his brain and thinking out the game plan, and I agree totally with that, however, part of the game on the professional level is how your brain and instincts react after the snap of the ball when you may have guessed wrong pre-snap, or something breaks down.  How do you adjust and make plays in that situation.  That is where I think he comes up way short.

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14 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Do you guys think his stats are more empty than other QBs? Or have we in general made too much of the accumulated stats? He reminds me of Romo in that way. Less of a play maker, but can wow you with numbers like its nothing. Its not hard to believe that he would have HOF numbers by the end of his career if he can keep a starting job. 

3

 

We have made too much of accumulated stats. Definitely.

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55 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Do you guys think his stats are more empty than other QBs? Or have we in general made too much of the accumulated stats? He reminds me of Romo in that way. Less of a play maker, but can wow you with numbers like its nothing. Its not hard to believe that he would have HOF numbers by the end of his career if he can keep a starting job. 

Between the 20's when there is room to work the Corners and Safties..Kirk eats the field up. The WR's have more open space to hit and separate and Kirk has the tools to get the ball there. Inside the RZ, the lanes are smaller, the rush is quicker and you have to "anticipate" WR Breaks before you see it...Kirk doesn't...he holds the ball until he Sees a open player...so he gets sacked more often. He doesn't feel the pressure well and that's why he gets strip sacked. He was a Gruden SYSTEM Qb where he had timing routes and he'd throw on a count not anticipation- THAT WAS GRUDEN. Gruden's plays were designed to where if the player wasn't open the ball could fall incomplete...the route where only the receiver could get it...

 

Asking KC to work the D like Rogers, Brady, Brees is NOT HIS GAME...that is where the OC in Vikes failed to understand KC as a player.

Edited by The Hangman- C_Hanburger
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2 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

 

I don't think his stats are empty, but I also think in the modern version of the NFL compiling volume stats is not always the best way to judge a QB.  Cousins is a fine QB, All my criticism of him aside, I still stick with the "You can win with him, but not because of him" mantra.  I think if you just look at his line/box score at the end of the season without actually have watched him play you likely come away with a higher opinion on his overall play.  He will win you some games, lose you some games, but at the end of the day there are things missing from his game that keeps him out of that higher tier of QB's.  I still think he plays a little to robotic, you mentioned his brain and thinking out the game plan, and I agree totally with that, however, part of the game on the professional level is how your brain and instincts react after the snap of the ball when you may have guessed wrong pre-snap, or something breaks down.  How do you adjust and make plays in that situation.  That is where I think he comes up way short.

 

I dont disagree with you at all. You can win with him. If you understand his flaws and are a good teacher you can work with and around them without much trouble imo. The problem in my eyes has always been the contract. Im very interested to see how the Vikes recover assuming they can. I almost feel like the 3 year limit hurts them more than the money does. Especially with all the flaws they have now. Some how they need to fill at least 4 starting positions on the oline, fix the run game (oline may fix it if they are lucky, but scheme may be a problem for them as well with a new OC) and pick up people to fill the loses they had last off-season on D and what they may lose this off-season. Its not going to be easy to do in 2 years even if you dont consider the money. 

 

And your reward for fixing all that? You have to pay him again lol. 

 

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To me, the Vikings of last year are no different than the Jaguars of last year. We've seen time and time again where amazing defenses carry teams really far, only to fall back to earth the following year. 

 

Keeping a great defense of that caliber from year to year is nearly impossible. Instead of relying on one guy, you're relying on 11-15. Some will leave, some will regress to their true selves. 

 

In my opinion, the Vikings keeping Keenum would look exactly like Jacksonville right now. 

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2 hours ago, Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin said:

That thing with Thelin went on longer than I thought.  Kirk looks like a jackass continuing after he'd already done the route instructional video

 

Ironic part is after watching the video with all the stuff he left out on the field. There was one play where Thielen literally shrugged his shoulders as he was walking off the field. He’s wide-open, Kirk has time, but stares down his target the entire time... and misses. Something isn’t right in that locker room and it wouldn’t shock me to see Thielen jet the first chance he gets. No need to get his rear end chewed out by an overrated, over-valued QB who obviously hasn’t earned the respect of that locker room, regardless what they say publicly.

Edited by ntotoro
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23 hours ago, Llevron said:

 

Whats so nasty about disagreeing with you? 

 

I never said he (or anyone) shouldn't. I said that was his main goal. You decided to argue that point - again. 

 

 

When you post

 

"Bet that doesnt mean anything to you though huh? But he ended up making up the reported difference in contracts anyway - so that would destroy your entire point wouldn't it?"  

 

I consider that a nasty, confrontational tone.  And I'm pretty much done with it. 

 

As for your 2nd comment of course you were arguing that Kirk shouldn't be seeking out the best deal for himself. Your entire argument was he was only looking out for himself and didn't care about winning, just the biggest deal.   You were critical of him for doing this throughout the debate so it's a bit disingenuous for you to say now that you feel that there's nothing wrong with him doing it.  

Edited by Darrell Green Fan
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The 2015 and 2016 Redskins were a decent qb away from making serious playoff runs.  

 

Offense stacked with weapons, excellent o-line that stayed mostly healthy, opportunistic defense.

 

Too bad Kirk was such a bum in the big games.

Edited by TryTheBeal!
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2 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

The 2015 and 2016 Redskins were a decent qb away from making serious playoff runs.  

 

Offense stacked with weapons, excellent o-line that stayed mostly healthy, opportunistic defense.

 

Too bad Kirk was such a bum.

 

Well other than a downright horrible defense, poor specials teams and crappy running backs you were right, they were oh so close to a deep playoff run. 

 

 🙄

Edited by Darrell Green Fan
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2 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

I’m totally right and you are dead wrong.

 

And you know it in your heart.  

 

If you would like to continue to pimp that defense that was historically bad, prime backs named Matt Jones and Rob Kelley and an OL that started LauVao, Long, rookie Moses who was not good as a rookie and horrible backups please be my guest.  Should be an interesting read.  

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1 minute ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

If you would like to continue to pimp that defense that was historically bad, prime backs named Matt Jones and Rob Kelley and an OL that started LauVao, Long, rookie Moses who was not good as a rookie and horrible backups please be my guest.  Should be an interesting read.  

 

The 2015 defense was ranked 17th overall and 9th in turnovers forced.  Is that historically bad?  The rankings are approximately the same for the 2018 defense that limped to 7-9 with a 4th string qb and 6 OLinemen on IR.

 

I love how Kirk loyalists are always reduced to essentially trashing everybody in the organization, on the field and off, to defend the guy.  It’s astounding.  How much longer are you going to live in this denial?  Do you think Viking fans are trashing their entire team for the benefit of Kirk?

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11 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

The 2015 defense was ranked 17th overall and 9th in turnovers forced.  Is that historically bad?  The rankings are approximately the same for the 2018 defense that limped to 7-9 with a 4th string qb and 6 OLinemen on IR.

 

I love how Kirk loyalists are always reduced to essentially trashing everybody in the organization, on the field and off, to defend the guy.  It’s astounding.  How much longer are you going to live in this denial?  Do you think Viking fans are trashing their entire team for the benefit of Kirk?

 

My comments have nothing to do with Kirk, I'm just not letting you get away with praising a defense that sucked and everyone knew it.  It is as if you are totally unaware that this defense was run by Joe Barry, a DC so bad he was much maligned before being run out of town for his incompetence.  The 2016 defense was historically bad on 3rd and long, where games are won and lost. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2016/12/06/the-redskins-third-and-long-defense-is-bad-historically-bad/?utm_term=.1d223c715789

 

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10 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

My comments have nothing to do with Kirk, I'm just not letting you get away with praising a defense that sucked and everyone knew it.  It is as if you are totally unaware that this defense was run by Joe Barry, a DC so bad he was much maligned before being run out of town for his incompetence.  The 2016 defense was historically bad on 3rd and long, where games are won and lost. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2016/12/06/the-redskins-third-and-long-defense-is-bad-historically-bad/?utm_term=.1d223c715789

 

 

I thought games were won and lost in the Red Zone.  That’s where Kirks 45% completion ranked 29th in 2016.

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26 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

When you post

 

"Bet that doesnt mean anything to you though huh? But he ended up making up the reported difference in contracts anyway - so that would destroy your entire point wouldn't it?"  

 

I consider that a nasty, confrontational tone.  And I'm pretty much done with it. 

 

Im sorry I hurt you. But I bet it doesnt mean anything to you. And you didnt address it so im going to continue to assume im right. 

 

26 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

As for your 2nd comment of course you were arguing that Kirk shouldn't be seeking out the best deal for himself. Your entire argument was he was only looking out for himself and didn't care about winning, just the biggest deal.   You were critical of him for doing this throughout the debate so it's a bit disingenuous for you to say now that you feel that there's nothing wrong with him doing it.  

 

No. Both arguments can exist on their own. I dont have a problem with a player getting the most money they can. I would do the same. And I would be much more open saying so. Most players are, in fact. Most dont say that God told them to do it. Its disingenuous and thats what I dont like about it. You know this, and you left it out in the above post because....? Exactly. Call me nasty if you want. But you seem to be twisting my words imo and thats alot less honest than just being "nasty". 

 

I can see why you would make that misunderstanding, though, if it is one. I may have even said something that lead you to believe it. But its a miss-understanding on your part regardless of how you want to frame it now. I am willing to go back and find a quote of me saying i dont have a problem with him getting as much money as he can, just NOT from the Skins and not using his faith as an excuse if thats what you would like. See, I feel like the problem here is you think im incapable of making multiple arguments at once. Im not. i can simultaneously dislike a person and see his value. I can look at production on the field and my personal feelings towards someones character as two different things. They arnt the same for me. I would help if you tried to understand that. Maybe thats where my nasty tone is coming from. 

 

 

 

Ill list my positions clearly in the event that you are not "done with it" and want to continue. 

 

  • -         I think Kirk is disingenuous about alot of things. Not least of which being his desire to get paid big time. It may not be the only factor - I never said it was - but its a huge factor. Its part of the reason he didnt think Bruce saw his value. Cause he wouldnt "show he wanted" him with them $$$$ Its super obvious. 
  • -         I dont begrudge him getting paid however. I dont think hes worth it. But i would take 84 mil if I wasnt worth it too and laugh my ass to the bank.
  • -         If The Skins would have done it I would see it as a mistake and a detriment to our further growth as a squad
  • -         I thought it was a good move for the Vikes cause i thought they were an almost complete squad. 
  • -         That they are not, in my mind, proves exactly what I was saying pages ago in this thread that you just cant pay a QB that much of your cap. The real test will be to see what they do going forward and if that 3 year limit or the money they have invested in him causes them issues. 
  • -         I think Kirk is a middle of the road QB at best. At his worst hes the worst of Romo starting in the 1st quarter. 

 

I think that covers most of it. Ill add more as I think of it. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

I thought games were won and lost in the Red Zone.  That’s where Kirks 45% completion ranked 29th in 2016.

 

This is where he was at his worst and its why i always said his stats were fake. If you throw it as much as we did (and the Vikes did) and you have such a high completions percentage AND you are in the Redzone so often you should have alot of touchdowns. But he maxes at 30. Its not ok for that to happen. 

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