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NFL.com: Kirk Cousins tops biggest contracts (Special rule---you can refer to the Redskins in this thread---M.E.T.)

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1 minute ago, Llevron said:

 

 

 

Seriously? That's how you validate your opinion? By the amount of people that like your posts? 

 

I have nothing else to add here. Enjoy lol

 

Not how many but who.  I haven’t even paid attention to who has liked your stuff to be honest.  It’s just you’re coming across like some of the posters I’d check myself in to the clink for if we thought the same.  I assume those guys are loving your takes in here. 

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3 hours ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

The Pressure is building like I foretold. I firmly believe Kirk bit off more than he could chew. At least he's getting paid (by someone other than the Skins)

Now the next 6 games is going to be pressure like he's NEVER felt before. I'm curious as to how he reacts.

 

Not knocking Cousins to go for the $$ and getting paid. Just wondering if it will be worth it to him in the long run. If the Vikes get to the SB, then yes and Cousins will have been through a seasoning process that will help him in the future. If they don't, Zimmer and the whole crew will feel the heat. Especially come Cap time 2019.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000990678/article/offensive-player-rankings-week-12-tom-brady-falls-out-of-top-15

Washington paid him top 5 money 2 years in a row.  We paid him big bucks.  It's not all about the money with Cousins......just most of it.

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David Carr on Kirk....

 

With their numbers suffering as a whole, and looking nothing like the team of last year, it's clear the Vikings could use help in several areas. Some quarterbacks can mask weaknesses, but I don't believe Cousins is one of those guys. Yes, he's a smart quarterback, but he's a product of the system around him. And if I'm a defensive coordinator, I'm not concerned about Cousins. He's not going to consistently make dynamic, big-time throws or beat defenders with his legs -- not like Aaron Rodgers or Russell Wilson (or a half dozen other QBs). The problem is, though, that Cousins is getting PAID like a quarterback who can transcend an offense beyond the Xs and Os, and that's just not him. He didn't do that in Washington and he's not doing that now.

 

More HERE

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12 hours ago, Llevron said:

 

You are not following my argument either because I'm not explaining it well or you dont want to understand it. I'm not gonna sit here and explain it over and over. 

 

I think the vikings made a good move. Cause they were conceivably one QB away. 

 

I think the Redskins made a good move. Cause they are not one QB away. 

 

It would be desperation, imo, to sign a good nor great QB for the majority of your cap of you are not one good QB away from competing. I cant make it more clear than that. Do you follow that logic?

 

No I think I understood your position after I read your post about how you believe the Vikes made the right move, I was surprised to see that as most of the posts I saw made it sound like you thought it was the wrong move.

 

But I'm not sure you followed my position either, at the very least you have not addressed.it.  Again let me re-state it. You have virtually no chance at success without a good QB.  We have seen that play out here, Cleveland, Chicago, and  countless other places.  We have been looking for that guy since the early 80's, the Browns for just as long (Kosar), the Bears before Mitch and a few years out of McMahon haven't had a good QB since Sid Luckman, and their records reflect that issue.

 

I know it was hyperbowl when you said it would cost 'the majority of your cap" because that's obviously not true.   And I do understand how it hinders your ability to complete the roster.  But to me it's worth the risk given how it plays out for teams with crappy QBs and how difficult it is to find a good one.  

 

We had a good QB, we discarded him for the next over the hill cast off.  And as I have just illustrated it's almost impossible to find one that was as good as the one we discarded.    

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2 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

No I think I understood your position after I read your post about how you believe the Vikes made the right move, I was surprised to see that as most of the posts I saw made it sound like you thought it was the wrong move.

 

I often get caught up in talking **** but I have a few moments of seriousness and clarity lol. Could be me. Likely, actually lol. All good. 

 

2 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

But I'm not sure you followed my position either, at the very least you have not addressed.it.  Again let me re-state it. You have virtually no chance at success without a good QB. 

 

Agree with a "but"

 

2 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

We have seen that play out here, Cleveland, Chicago, and  countless other places.  We have been looking for that guy since the early 80's, the Browns for just as long (Kosar), the Bears before Mitch and a few years out of McMahon haven't had a good QB since Sid Luckman, and their records reflect that issue.

 

This is my "but". None of those teams were a good QB away from domination anyway. In my view you build a roster with whatever cheap QB you can keep to run it at a average level (say Smith for this example). Build that roster with high picks and FAs until you feel you are a step or two away. Then start shot gunning for a QB. Draft one or two a year unless you see one guy perfect for you then you go get him. If they dont work move on with your average team that's just a QB away and hope to get lucky. This gives you a QB you think is perfect, you can mold and freedom with that cap/contract stuff.

 

I'm literally talking about what KC did. I dont think the young guy there is the next coming of Drew Brees. I DO think he stepped into a situation almost literally built for his skillset. Perfect marriage. And crazy results. 

 

I think the Vikings thought (and had every reason to think) they were there and that alone made Kirk worth whatever he wanted. But then they let the D slip (ha) and lost the run game to injury. Kirk isnt good enough to make up for those losses. What sucks for them is that this seasons potential was lost due to these failings (not Kirk's, the rest of the squad) and in the next two years they have to find a way to get it together AND pay him again. I find that to be next to impossible without a first class GM and perfect drafting. Which is exactly why I didnt want him here UNTIL it looked like we had a run game and a defense. ****ed up how that worked out smh. 

 

2 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I know it was hyperbowl when you said it would cost 'the majority of your cap" because that's obviously not true.   And I do understand how it hinders your ability to complete the roster.  But to me it's worth the risk given how it plays out for teams with crappy QBs and how difficult it is to find a good one.  

 

See above. The more we communicate the more I think we agree on the QB and disagree on the timing of getting him. I'm saying hes the next to last piece. I think you want him regardless of when or how. I think that's our disconnect. 

 

I'll say it like this. He is worth the price for the right situation. What I thought was the Vikes - perfect. What I thought was ours - not worth it. In the end the situations flipped on their heads and that has much less to do with Kirk and much more to do with the Football Gods flipping me the bird. 

 

2 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

We had a good QB, we discarded him for the next over the hill cast off.  And as I have just illustrated it's almost impossible to find one that was as good as the one we discarded.    

 

I still maintain that Gruden or GM whomever didnt expect the team to play the way they did this season. Running game aside (they planned for that) I believe we are still a few pieces away from being a steady competitor on defense. The numbers look ok this year but that turnover number is what's saving us and you can't predict that. Honest without that I think the D is rated 15ish and the offense is nothing special. Nothing to help Cousins. And that in my mind made the timing bad. 

 

But even I have to admit - the results being what they are now - if he was here we would have probably an even better record and we would be in the talks with the better teams. 

 

I don't know if I'm making sense or just rambling now. In the end I dont care much about Cousins as far as football is concerned. It's fun to watch him validate my opinions on him. Its crazy to think about what he could have done here and what he will do next. But honestly I'm just here to argue with you guys cause i have nothing better to do at this time of the day lol

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@Llevron

 

I will admit to being shallow enough to root against players that have left my team as you are doing with Kirk. I also think many are being too hard on him.  He threw a pick 6 at the end of the game, I get that.  But that was also a great Bears defense.  People all remember the pick against the Giants, nobody seems to remember the countless times he did lead the team down the field in the final moments only to have the defense or kicker screw it up.. So they lose and it's as if what Kirk did never happened.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I understand how he has failed in crunch time so many times. I totally get the issue there. And again he is not a top QB but he's clearly in the next group.  Where we differ is your idea that you can build a roster and then magically out of thin air find a good QB.  As I have illustrated over and over again that is just not going to happen very often, especially if your rosters is such that you are picking in the middle of round 1. The Vikings were able to do it because a team was stupid enough to allow a top 10 QB to be available. That has never happened before and it sure won't happen when the Redskins are in the market, no that market will consist of players at the Tyrod Taylor level.  Again when you have a guy like that you are stupid to let him go.  It could very well take the Redskins another 40 years to find a QB this good and I don't have that much time left.

Edited by Darrell Green Fan

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On the Kirk stuff the criticism reminds me a lot of the thread about Kirk last year -- critics live and die with each game as a referendum.  His defenders talk about the whole soup and QBs have bad games especially against really good defenses with no running game to help. 

 

The media lives and dies with it, too.  Recall reading multiple articles about how Kirk now is elite this season, have read articles about how he's disappointing. 

 

You got the critics of free agency that a player's worth shouldn't be effected by the market but by apples to apples comparisons with the top players on the market.  You got people saying that's not how Fa works but its by the top players in that given market -- next man up as for who gets the big pay day.

 

Rinse and repeat.  😎

 

I said on the Alex thread, I'll judge how they perform at the end of the season.  Alex I think I've seen enough to judge and its not good.  Kirk on the other hand has played a lot better than Alex IMO but he's had some bad moments, too.  For Kirk the game coming up against GB is big. 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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3 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

@Llevron

 

I will admit to being shallow enough to root against players that have left my team as you are doing with Kirk. I also think many are being too hard on him.  He threw a pick 6 at the end of the game, I get that.  But that was also a great Bears defense.  People all remember the pick against the Giants, nobody seems to remember the countless times he did lead the team down the field in the final moments only to have the defense or kicker screw it up.. So they lose and it's as if what Kirk did never happened.

 

I haven't forgotten any of that but it doesn't fit my point so no real benefit in bringing it up for me. Not that I'm ignoring it in the body of who Kirk is. I have said time and again with a team good enough he can do the job. Him on KC for example is a warzone. No one wants that drama. 

 

3 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Now don't get me wrong, I understand how he has failed in crunch time so many times. I totally get the issue there. And again he is not a top QB but he's clearly in the next group. 

 

Don't disagree here

 

3 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

Where we differ is your idea that you can build a roster and then magically out of thin air find a good QB. 

 

I dont think it has anything to do with magic. I'm talking about evaluating talent. Everyone knew when Andy Ried went up to get his boy that he was going to cook once he got his chance. Everyone. That's talent evaluation. It has nothing to do with magic. Good talent, good team, good coaching usually leads to success. You dont have to diminish my point with words like "just magic" and "out of thin air" to make your own. I'm not interested in going over this over and over if you dont want to see my point.  

 

3 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

As I have illustrated over and over again that is just not going to happen very often, especially if your rosters is such that you are picking in the middle of round 1.

 

Rams, KC, Bears, Eagles. Last 5 years. It's more of a pattern than what you are sayingit is. Find a guy and hold onto him until you get lucky....the only evidence of that working that I can think of is Roger's and maybe Flacco? Am I'm forgetting someone?

 

Add Seahawks to that too. Though I do think they got lucky on D. But they are also a good example of what I mean. Look how normal Wilson looks without a good team around him. 

 

3 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

Again when you have a guy like that you are stupid to let him go.  It could very well take the Redskins another 40 years to find a QB this good and I don't have that much time left.

 

You are over starting your point here. You cant tell me after watching Cousins that it will take another 40 years for a player like him to come into the league and for the skins to draft him. 

 

Seriously. If your mind is already made up and you arnt even thinking about what I'm saying I can leave you alone. We dont have to agree. 

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 For Kirk the game coming up against GB is big. 

 

 

We have seriously been saying the same thing about this guy for 5 years now. When are we gonna call it a pattern? 

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@Llevron all you need to do is look at the history of QBs taken in the draft.  For every  Mahomes there are 15 Christian Ponders and that's just 1st rounders. Once you get into the middle rounds the odds are off the charts.  We know that well from our own history of drafting QBs. So yeah saying it could take another 40 years to find a QB better than Kirk Cousins is not hyperbowl at all, in fact the facts kind of back up my claim seeing as we haven't drafted a good QB in forever.  

 

Edited by Darrell Green Fan

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19 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

@Llevron all you need to do is look at the history of QBs taken in the draft.  For every  Mahomes there are 15 Christian Ponders and that's just 1st rounders. Once you get into the middle rounds the odds are off the charts.  We know that well from our own history of drafting QBs. So yeah saying it could take another 40 years to find a QB better than Kirk Cousins is not hyperbowl at all, in fact the facts kind of back up my claim seeing as we haven't drafted a good QB in forever.  

 

That's what FA is about...plenty of "Good" QB's test the market and you can get one of those while looking/grooming a rookie. Kirk is/was a "Good" QB. Nothing special. You don't pay sirloin prices for flank steaks

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41 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

@Llevron all you need to do is look at the history of QBs taken in the draft.  For every  Mahomes there are 15 Christian Ponders and that's just 1st rounders. Once you get into the middle rounds the odds are off the charts.

 

I'm pretty sure the odds are messed up at every position outside of RB and linemen but you are missing my point again. We are about done here. 

 

Quote

We know that well from our own history of drafting QBs. So yeah saying it could take another 40 years to find a QB better than Kirk Cousins is not hyperbowl at all, in fact the facts kind of back up my claim seeing as we haven't drafted a good QB in forever.  

 

My entire point is it's easier to find JAG to run your offense if its good enough and avoid needing to look for a ARodgers in the draft. 

 

Kirk Cousins is not a once in 40 years talent. Hes just not. And If your argument is that he is then just say that and we can stop this discussion. 

 

I dont know how else I can explain it to you, honestly. 

Edited by Llevron

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1 hour ago, Llevron said:

 

We have seriously been saying the same thing about this guy for 5 years now. When are we gonna call it a pattern? 

 

I think the pattern is from the Kirk critics.   Among everything, overreacting to a game, living and dying with each performance.   Yeah if you aren't Brees, Rodgers, Brady -- the next echelon of QBs tends to have give or take 3-4 bad games a year.   It just feels very painful when it happens to you but it doesn't change the reality.  Only difference is when Russell Wilson or Cam or whomever has a bad day it doesn't effect our mood but when it happens to our QB it does and we will sulk about it all week.

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1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 Only difference is when Russell Wilson or Cam 

 

Kirk has a ways to go to be mentioned in the same breath as these two.

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See I cant even have a serious conversation with you guys. All I'm saying is that hes not a once in a generation talent and because if that you dont pay him like that UNLESS you have the squad to support him. We didnt. Vikes did. 

 

You should be able to see the validity in that but instead all you can talk about are Kirk's haters and critics and how there must be some other reason they dont like him. 

 

Whatever lol. Yall are silly

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48 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

Kirk has a ways to go to be mentioned in the same breath as these two.

 

Disagree.  But don't care enough to debate it.

40 minutes ago, Llevron said:

See I cant even have a serious conversation with you guys. All I'm saying is that hes not a once in a generation talent and because if that you dont pay him like that UNLESS you have the squad to support him. We didnt. Vikes did. 

 

You should be able to see the validity in that but instead all you can talk about are Kirk's haters and critics and how there must be some other reason they dont like him. 

 

Whatever lol. Yall are silly

 

Your premise though is predicated on it being a one year negotiation starting in 2018 and free agency wasn't based on that given market in that given year and instead about apples to apples comparisons to other players at said position regardless of when they are up for FA.  Not sure that you got some slam dunk argument where you could call the other side silly.  I get your point but its really easy to shoot it down.  Different strokes. 😎

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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43 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

Kirk has a ways to go to be mentioned in the same breath as these two.

This. He's not even on these guys' level.

 

When you've watched a guy 4 years, you have a pretty good idea of what they are. There are far too many games like against the bears in big games to act as if it's living or dying with one game.

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Yall gotta stop quoting me. I wanna point out the bull**** but I wanna walk away. 

 

I have not the strength 

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Your premise though is predicated on it being a one year negotiation starting in 2018

 

Quote me lol

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11 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Yall gotta stop quoting me. I wanna point out the bull**** but I wanna walk away. 

 

I have not the strength 

 

Quote me lol

 

I said your "premise" is based on like you said "paying him like a once in generation talent" - and that's what the Vikings paid him like.   Whether you say it or not, that's the Vikings 2018 contract.  We all know when he got 28 million and by whom. 

 

If your point doesn't set the stage of the negotiation to 2018 without factoring they could have made a deal earlier -- then I guess am missing something in your point?   

 

Otherwise, if they paid Kirk what he wanted for example in 2016, 20 million a year clearly that's not anything crazy.  They had a shot too in 2017 but don't feel like reliving all of that. 

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30 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Yall gotta stop quoting me. I wanna point out the bull**** but I wanna walk away. 

 

I have not the strength 

 

Quote me lol

I’m still waiting on your analysis that certified your opinion that Kirk is the king of garbage time.

 

You were presented with an analysis that last season he was T25 in garbage time stats and that was followed up by QBR ratings that take things like that into account.  *Crickets*

 

The point we’ve both been making is that because you watch and care about the Redskins, you have an emotional attachment that leads you to believe things that aren’t necessarily true.

 

I think it’s fair to say that Kirk isn’t a good enough QB to beat top tier defenses with no running game and/or defense.  Plenty of data to support that.  There is also plenty of data to suggest that very few QBs do.

Edited by BatteredFanSyndrome

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