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NFL.com: Kirk Cousins tops biggest contracts (Special rule---you can refer to the Redskins in this thread---M.E.T.)

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36 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

I remember reading an article about Kirk Cousins in the 2015 off season. Or maybe it was 2016 off season after his first full year as a starter, I forget. But the article was about his process in the off-season, reaching out to different QB's who have had great success, etc. All good things. But i believe part of the same article talked about training his brain to find that "sweet spot." At the time I found it fascinating, but never really gave a lot of thought to what it meant playing the position. Part of me thinks the truly great QB's don't have to train their minds that, they already operate there. It's what makes them great. I'm sure there are techniques to help better train your brain, I don't doubt that even if I don't understand the science behind it. But I would venture to guess the ones who play their best in peak moments and don't falter under pressure innately have the ability to not get too high or too low. Cousins seems so robotic, so processed, so focused on perfection. And when things are working, man things are working and it's a thing of beauty. But when things go off-script, or any big game where the pressure is mounting, he folds. He just does. And it doesn't mean he can't lead his team back from behind or play well in some tough spots. He's done that. But the truly great QB's mak big time plays in big time moments. And Cousins makes far too many WTF plays in those moments to ever justify the money he and his agent wanted by getting to the open market. Good on them, but I don't see elite QB with Kirk. And that's what he's being paid as. 

I think he's one of those QBs who spend too much time overthinking what makes a great QB - it's generally instinct and you either have that or you don't. All the self help books in the world won't help that. It's really about maximising what you do to the best of your ability - not reading everything about Tom Brady and assuming that you'll end up like that.

 

I've said it before - he's skewered the QB market just now - there are a small number of elite quarterbacks - Brady, Brees, Rodgers for me who are light years ahead of most of their competitors. They are just off the scale good. That's the barometer - then there's a general group of really good/often great - Ryan, Roethlesberger etc.

 

Cousins is in that group except I do think in the big games he would revert back the way and become error prone - I don't think he believes he is capable of winning a superbowl. I still maintain he's not worth that level of money. I think if he gets over the hump of a playoff win then he could well take a step forward but I can see them having to go the Bears and getting smashed.

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19 minutes ago, thebeermonkey said:

I think he's one of those QBs who spend too much time overthinking what makes a great QB - it's generally instinct and you either have that or you don't. All the self help books in the world won't help that. It's really about maximising what you do to the best of your ability - not reading everything about Tom Brady and assuming that you'll end up like that.

 

I've said it before - he's skewered the QB market just now - there are a small number of elite quarterbacks - Brady, Brees, Rodgers for me who are light years ahead of most of their competitors. They are just off the scale good. That's the barometer - then there's a general group of really good/often great - Ryan, Roethlesberger etc.

 

Cousins is in that group except I do think in the big games he would revert back the way and become error prone - I don't think he believes he is capable of winning a superbowl. I still maintain he's not worth that level of money. I think if he gets over the hump of a playoff win then he could well take a step forward but I can see them having to go the Bears and getting smashed.

You got a few tiers IMO.

 

Tier 1 - Brady Rodgers Brees

 

These are guys that make everyone around them better. They are consistent game in game out, season over season, play their biggest in biggest moments. Even these guys can't do it all themselves, see Brees 3 straight 7-9 seasons, Rodgers only has 1 SB. But they are at least worthy of big time money because they can mask deficiencies.

 

Tier 2- Wilson/Roethlisberger/Ryan/Rivers/Luck

 

Proven commodities, really good QBs. Consistency is key here, they play big in big moments as well. Just a step below the top guys.

 

Tier 3 - Watson/Wentz/Goff/Mahomes- The youngins with big time talent. Haven't done it long enough yet to be considered in the top 2 tiers, but will most certainly be there down the line. Worth big time contracts when their time is up.

 

Anything below these guys and I think you stay out of the market all together. Veteran stop gap or QB on a rookie deal surrounding him with the best talent possible is probably your best bet to get toward contender status. It's just not worth it, IMO. But yeah, the market is whack. Bradford got 20M (20 Million!!!) dollars this year because that's what the market dictated an OK Qb should get. That's ridiculous, and he's already off the team. Just stay away IMO.

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3 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

You kind of answered your own  question. It is not a matter of hating Kirk. It is a matter of making him the highest paid player in NFL history after the primetime games he choked away here. Bad int's and fumbles at awful points in games. Then he throws for 150 yards and 2 TD's in the 4th quarter to make his numbers look amazing. As far as the signing with another team goes I am sure that pissed off a chunk of the fanbase who think he is nothing but a money grubber. Me? I dont care about that. As you said the teams have no loyalty to the players so he should get all he can. 

 

Oh I totally get all of this. But you have to realize highest paid never meant best player, it means most recently signed. In a few years that contract will be down the list of biggest contract.

 

As for fans being pissed that a player tried to maximize his earnings that's just ignorance. There is nothing wrong what so ever with maximizing your earnings and they do it too when they get a job offer.  Even if they were pissed to call Kirk a bad guy doesn't seem very fair to me. 

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2 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

I remember reading an article about Kirk Cousins in the 2015 off season. Or maybe it was 2016 off season after his first full year as a starter, I forget. But the article was about his process in the off-season, reaching out to different QB's who have had great success, etc. All good things. But i believe part of the same article talked about training his brain to find that "sweet spot." At the time I found it fascinating, but never really gave a lot of thought to what it meant playing the position. Part of me thinks the truly great QB's don't have to train their minds that, they already operate there. It's what makes them great. I'm sure there are techniques to help better train your brain, I don't doubt that even if I don't understand the science behind it. But I would venture to guess the ones who play their best in peak moments and don't falter under pressure innately have the ability to not get too high or too low. Cousins seems so robotic, so processed, so focused on perfection. And when things are working, man things are working and it's a thing of beauty. But when things go off-script, or any big game where the pressure is mounting, he folds. He just does. And it doesn't mean he can't lead his team back from behind or play well in some tough spots. He's done that. But the truly great QB's mak big time plays in big time moments. And Cousins makes far too many WTF plays in those moments to ever justify the money he and his agent wanted by getting to the open market. Good on them, but I don't see elite QB with Kirk. And that's what he's being paid as. 

 

HCZ, I completely agree.  I remember that article, too and I thought it was really intriguing.  But, as Kirk himself reminded us several times last season, he's a "process-oriented" quarterback - if the play doesn't go exactly as it's drawn up, he's no good at improvising.

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Again nobody said he was elite.  Highest paid never meant the best, just means most recently signed.  In a few years he will be down the list where he belongs. He got that contract because teams are aware that players like that are very difficult to find and without a QB at least this good you have virtually no chance as we are about to find out.

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Funny how now that our experiment failed, this thread is humming with posts. 🤣

 

It’s kind of funny hearing about his contract ruining the market.  Wonder who all the NFL execs are blaming for that?  Kirk or his former team?

 

I’m still waiting for someone to find me some examples of Kirk pooping the bed in big moments where he had any semblance of anything else going on otherwise.  How often do ANY QB’s have big games that carry their whole team against good defenses?  Just look around at the ones we all love so much, how often is even Aaron Rodgers carrying his team to the promise land these days?

 

I know Kirk not carrying his team like a HOFer is literally the last shred of anything many of these folks have to hold onto, but sheesh.

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2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Funny how now that our experiment failed, this thread is humming with posts. 🤣

 

It’s kind of funny hearing about his contract ruining the market.  Wonder who all the NFL execs are blaming for that?  Kirk or his former team?

 

I’m still waiting for someone to find me some examples of Kirk pooping the bed in big moments where he had any semblance of anything else going on otherwise.  How often do ANY QB’s have big games that carry their whole team against good defenses?  Just look around at the ones we all love so much, how often is even Aaron Rodgers carrying his team to the promise land these days?

 

I know Kirk not carrying his team like a HOFer is literally the last shred of anything many of these folks have to hold onto, but sheesh.

 

Go back and read your posts after 2016 finale. It’s a really good example and launching point and should refresh your memory. Remember the year where he had a top 5 receiving corps?

 

And it’s humming with posts cause he sucked balls the other night in a big game. So naturally people like myself who have said over and over and over and over again he wasn’t worth what he wanted, are going to point out a glaring example of why he wasn’t. Just cause you look dumb for claiming we didn’t lock him up at elite qb money doesn’t mean you have to get all huffy puffy that people are pointing out the obvious, he just wasn’t worth it. The Vikings are figuring that out.

 

And it has zilch to do with the alternative we pursued which we cannot talk about.

Edited by HardcoreZorn
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45 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

In a few years he will be down the list where he belongs.

 

45 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

He got that contract because teams are aware that players like that are very difficult to find and without a QB at least this good you have virtually no chance as we are about to find out.

 

These two sentences are contradictory. He signed a 3 years fully guaranteed deal with no player or team options from what I understand. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

That means that NEXT SEASON the Vikings are going to have to start talking about making him the highest paid player in history AGAIN or risk having him in a 1 year deal with no back up as good as he is. Meaning pay him again or franchise tag him or have no QB. And since he is exactly the same QB he was here, the Vikes are gonna be in the same damn position we were unless they get the D and Run game together enough to support him. 

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23 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

Go back and read your posts after 2016 finale. It’s a really good example and launching point and should refresh your memory. Remember the year where he had a top 5 receiving corps?

 

And it’s humming with posts cause he sucked balls the other night in a big game. So naturally people like myself who have said over and over and over and over again he wasn’t worth what he wanted, are going to point out a glaring example of why he wasn’t. Just cause you look dumb for claiming we didn’t lock him up at elite qb money doesn’t mean you have to get all huffy puffy that people are pointing out the obvious, he just wasn’t worth it. The Vikings are figuring that out.

 

And it has zilch to do with the alternative we pursued which we cannot talk about.

Dude, we’ve been over this already.  Did I not just say several times that dude isn’t perfect, folds when he presses and may never get over that?  Did I not just say that I didn’t want to pay him 28M per year either?

 

Whose fault is it that he got the money he did? Yeah, I’ll wait.

 

Since you have been historically stuck on the Giants game to end 2016.  Revisit that game.  Leading rusher: Rob Kelley 12 carries for 33 yards.  38 total rushing yards as a team.  15 total rushes to 35 passes.  In a 19-10 ball game. Defense got no turnovers.  Reed turned it over once, Kirk twice.  He absolutely sucked and pissed me off badly.  But I certainly wasn’t applauding everyone else around him that day.  

 

BTW, I’m not the only one that has noticed you steer clear of this thread when the going’s good just like you do when the going is bad in The Stadium.  Atleast some of these folks that also hate Kirk are consistent and take their lumps.  

 

Edited by BatteredFanSyndrome

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7 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

 

These two sentences are contradictory. He signed a 3 years fully guaranteed deal with no player or team options from what I understand. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

That means that NEXT SEASON the Vikings are going to have to start talking about making him the highest paid player in history AGAIN or risk having him in a 1 year deal with no back up as good as he is. Meaning pay him again or franchise tag him or have no QB. And since he is exactly the same QB he was here, the Vikes are gonna be in the same damn position we were unless they get the D and Run game together enough to support him. 

 

He signed a 3 year deal that at the time made him the highest player in the league, that lasted less than a year until Rodgers' deal surpassed it.  As Kirk and his agent have now set the bar for deals the next guy to come up will have similar language and probably for more total dollars, depending on the player. 

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The Redskins definitely created this monster lol. But I argue there is a fair amount of greed and stat padding that helped alot too. 

 

The 4th quarter the other night is the easiest and most recent example. He does that 5 times a season and its...what? 10 TDs and 750 yards? 

 

And I think 5 times is modest. I felt like i saw it every other week when I look back. 

3 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

He signed a 3 year deal that at the time made him the highest player in the league, that lasted less than a year until Rodgers' deal surpassed it.  As Kirk and his agent have now set the bar for deals the next guy to come up will have similar language and probably for more total dollars, depending on the player. 

 

You are ignoring the fact that they will have to start contract talks again next year or be in the same position we are in. 

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5 minutes ago, Llevron said:

And I think 5 times is modest. I felt like i saw it every other week when I look back. 

That’s probably the biggest issue for a lot of you guys and it’s how you “feel” about it vs. what really happens.  It’s much more emotional when it’s your team or you have something invested.  

 

Odd to me that NFL GM’s and scouts that watch endless tape would want to make the king of garbage time the highest paid QB in the league, even if it was short lived.

Edited by BatteredFanSyndrome

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5 minutes ago, Llevron said:

The Redskins definitely created this monster lol. But I argue there is a fair amount of greed and stat padding that helped alot too. 

 

The 4th quarter the other night is the easiest and most recent example. He does that 5 times a season and its...what? 10 TDs and 750 yards? 

 

And I think 5 times is modest. I felt like i saw it every other week when I look back. 

 

You are ignoring the fact that they will have to start contract talks again next year or be in the same position we are in. 

 

Well that was the deal that was signed, if he is "not worth it" he won't get the same money right?  His value was set by the market, you are worth what someone is willing to pay you. And that is because as I keep saying teams understand when you have a good QB you don't F around because without one they you are screwed. That is all factored in when determining a QB's value.

Edited by Darrell Green Fan

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4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Dude, we’ve been over this already.  Did I not just say several times that dude isn’t perfect, folds when he presses and may never get over that?  Did I not just say that I didn’t want to pay him 28M per year either?

 

Whose fault is it that he got the money he did? Yeah, I’ll wait.

 

I’m not the only one that has noticed you steer clear of this thread when the going’s good just like you do when the going is bad in The Stadium.  Atleast some of these folks that also hate Kirk are consistent and take their lumps.  

 

I love how you have a little posse that you converse with and notice things with, it's cute.

 

I've made a grand total of 3 posts in here before this one about Kirk after his embarrassing prime time outing on Sunday. Most weeks i'd probably lump it in the stadium QB thread, that's not allowed anymore. I also haven't avoided the stadium at all this week and made posts in multiple threads. I's less than 48 hours after the game. Most weeks win or lose I like to decompress and read the board before firing off posts left and right. Helps take the emotion out of my replies.

 

Whose fault? Not getting into that. We know eachother's stance and don't think that the thread permits for that to be discussed.

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1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

That’s probably the biggest issue for a lot of you guys and it’s how you “feel” about it vs. what really happens.  It’s much more emotional when it’s your team or you have something invested.  

 

I mean we can actually go back and track the **** if you really wanna quantify it. If you want it give me a few days and I'll give it to you. 

 

I'm willing to be it's a sizable amount if "garbage" stats. 

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5 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I mean we can actually go back and track the **** if you really wanna quantify it. If you want it give me a few days and I'll give it to you. 

 

I'm willing to be it's a sizable amount if "garbage" stats. 

 

There is probably a stat already out there for that somewhere.  

 

No doubt he has some garbage time stats.  I’d actually be interested to see how that shakes out because I’ve watched many QBs, very good ones, rack up garbage stats.  I’ve watched bad ones fail to even rack up garbage stats vs. soft zones.  

 

But again, I guess GMs and scouts are blithering idiots to not see that he was merely the king of garbage time.

 

edit: Just found this-

 

https://www.rockingchairsports.com/single-post/garbagetimeking

 

T-25 for 2017.

Edited by BatteredFanSyndrome

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2 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

Well that was the deal that was signed, if he is "not worth it" he won't get the same money right?  His value was set by the market, you are worth what someone is willing to pay you. And that is because as I keep saying teams understand when you have a good QB you don't F around because without one they are screwed. 

 

You laid out the argument about why teams would be so desperate to sign the dude and risk being wrong on him. And now you wanna pretend you dont understand how be could get more than he is worth from someone? 

 

Past that. They get exactly this season and half of next to evaluate him. This season the excuse will be no running game. No defense. New to the system. Next season it will be something else. It always is. And by then you have to talk to him about his next contract. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

You laid out the argument about why teams would be so desperate to sign the dude and risk being wrong on him. And now you wanna pretend you dont understand how be could get more than he is worth from someone? 

 

Past that. They get exactly this season and half of next to evaluate him. This season the excuse will be no running game. No defense. New to the system. Next season it will be something else. It always is. And by then you have to talk to him about his next contract. 

 

 

 

I would not call signing a good not great QB an act of desperation. It's as if you do not even remember what it's like to root for a team quarterbacked by the guys we've had in the past without mentioning names.

Edited by Darrell Green Fan

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1 minute ago, Llevron said:

This season the excuse will be no running game. No defense. New to the system. Next season it will be something else. It always is.

 

Since you want to go find stats, I’m still waiting for any of you to find me examples where the running game and defense was good and he was bad.  Waiting...

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3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

No doubt he has some garbage time stats.  I’d actually be interested to see how that shakes out because I’ve watched many QBs, very good ones, rack up garbage stats.  I’ve watched bad ones fail to even rack up garbage stats vs. soft zones.  

 

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/123701/how-is-total-qbr-calculated-we-explain-our-quarterback-rating

...So how does QBR actually work?

...For each play, QBR begins by asking: How successful was the play for the team, given its context?

Before moving on to the next play, QBR asks one more question: Did this play come in garbage time?

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr

NFL Total QBR - 2018 Season Leaders

 

2018 Regular Season NFL Leaders

RK PLAYER PTS ADDED PASS RUN PENALTY TOTAL EPA QB PLAYS RAW QBR TOTAL QBR
1 Drew Brees, NO 57.0 68.6 4.4 1.9 80.5 380 89.3 87.7
2 Patrick Mahomes, KC 57.4 69.0 10.0 1.8 88.2 491 83.9 82.7
3 Mitchell Trubisky, CHI 32.3 27.7 20.5 2.9 60.2 420 74.8 76.3
4 Jared Goff, LAR 37.8 55.2 2.6 4.5 72.1 459 76.3 75.6
5 Andrew Luck, IND 30.5 51.6 2.5 3.1 61.8 459 71.9 72.9
6 Matt Ryan, ATL 33.5 46.3 3.6 4.5 67.5 462 73.6 71.0
7 Philip Rivers, LAC 25.9 44.1 -0.4 0.1 49.2 365 73.2 70.9
8 Ben Roethlisberger, PIT 29.9 48.3 8.8 2.5 65.0 475 70.9 69.3
9 Tom Brady, NE 15.6 32.4 3.6 2.6 45.7 416 62.9 65.7
10 Ryan Fitzpatrick, TB 13.0 23.6 3.3 1.0 33.0 310 64.4 65.6
RK PLAYER PTS ADDED PASS RUN PENALTY TOTAL EPA QB PLAYS RAW QBR TOTAL QBR
11 Kirk Cousins, MIN 19.6 43.7 -3.6 1.3 51.8 482 64.0 64.8
12 Cam Newton, CAR 19.2 36.6 7.2 -1.0 50.9 444 64.9 62.6
13 Carson Wentz, PHI 15.2 23.6 4.8 2.8 42.6 370 64.2 62.5
14 Andy Dalton, CIN 17.1 33.5 1.7 3.5 48.4 413 64.2 62.4
15 Jameis Winston, TB 9.7 12.0 5.0 1.7 23.2 211 65.7 60.5
16 Russell Wilson, SEA 10.1 19.8 4.4 -0.2 37.8 365 59.7 58.8
17 Marcus Mariota, TEN 5.3 10.9 5.6 2.9 30.7 309 56.1 58.5
18 Joe Flacco, BAL 11.0 30.1 2.9 4.6 43.4 441 58.7 57.7
19 Aaron Rodgers, GB 6.5 17.4 8.3 0.4 41.2 466 54.9 57.5
20 Deshaun Watson, HOU 7.5 19.0 4.7 3.2 41.5 420 56.3 56.4
RK PLAYER PTS ADDED PASS RUN PENALTY TOTAL EPA QB PLAYS RAW QBR TOTAL QBR
21 Matthew Stafford, DET 0.4 13.9 3.3 2.6 31.1 436 50.3 53.5
22 Blake Bortles, JAX -0.2 12.6 10.8 -1.3 30.8 428 49.8 50.7
23 Dak Prescott, DAL -0.6 8.0 10.5 0.9 32.8 417 49.5 50.2
24 Alex Smith, WSH 4.6 17.8 5.5 2.9 35.0 422 53.8 48.9
25 Eli Manning, NYG -0.7 14.3 1.2 1.9 32.3 436 49.4 47.5
26 Baker Mayfield, CLE -1.6 11.8 1.5 1.7 25.7 347 48.4 46.8
27 Derek Carr, OAK -3.8 13.0 2.2 0.5 29.9 426 46.8 46.0
28 Case Keenum, DEN -7.2 12.3 1.4 2.3 27.5 428 44.1 44.6
29 C.J. Beathard, SF -6.5 1.3 1.5 0.2 11.7 218 39.7 43.5
30 Brock Osweiler, MIA -9.4 4.5 -3.0 0.2 8.3 210 34.7 38.4
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1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

But again, I guess GMs and scouts are blithering idiots to not see that he was merely the king of garbage time.

 

This is not my argument. Though some of them certainly are. We know this as fact, right? We both think ours is. I'm sure no one thinks it's just us. 

 

But the argument can be made that the Vikings saw his production, saw their current teams production and thought all they needed was a QB. No matter the cost, his production - empty or not - added to theirs would be tuff to beat. But then they fell off and he couldnt hold them up. 

 

My argument is that a man paid as the best should be able to do that. 

 

Honestly I'm not arguing Kirk so much as I am how to build a football team. And I think the Vikings did the right thing in getting him. And I think we did the right thing in letting him go. I know that's difficult to understand but try. 

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2 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Honestly I'm not arguing Kirk so much as I am how to build a football team. And I think the Vikings did the right thing in getting him. And I think we did the right thing in letting him go. I know that's difficult to understand but try.

I can’t really respond to this without breaking Jumbos rule.  I’ll just say C’mon man, I know you are smarter than that.  Sometimes you have to take a look around at who likes what you’re saying and ask yourself, am I off my rocker?  I’ve been there before, I know.

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The Pressure is building like I foretold. I firmly believe Kirk bit off more than he could chew. At least he's getting paid (by someone other than the Skins)

Now the next 6 games is going to be pressure like he's NEVER felt before. I'm curious as to how he reacts.

 

Not knocking Cousins to go for the $$ and getting paid. Just wondering if it will be worth it to him in the long run. If the Vikes get to the SB, then yes and Cousins will have been through a seasoning process that will help him in the future. If they don't, Zimmer and the whole crew will feel the heat. Especially come Cap time 2019.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000990678/article/offensive-player-rankings-week-12-tom-brady-falls-out-of-top-15

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1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I would not call signing a good not great QB an act of desperation. It's as if you do not even remember what it's like to root for a team quarterbacked by the guys we've had in the past without mentioning names.

 

You are not following my argument either because I'm not explaining it well or you dont want to understand it. I'm not gonna sit here and explain it over and over. 

 

I think the vikings made a good move. Cause they were conceivably one QB away. 

 

I think the Redskins made a good move. Cause they are not one QB away. 

 

It would be desperation, imo, to sign a good nor great QB for the majority of your cap of you are not one good QB away from competing. I cant make it more clear than that. Do you follow that logic?

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1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I can’t really respond to this without breaking Jumbos rule.  I’ll just say C’mon man, I know you are smarter than that.  Sometimes you have to take a look around at who likes what you’re saying and ask yourself, am I off my rocker?  I’ve been there before, I know.

 

Seriously? That's how you validate your opinion? By the amount of people that like your posts? 

 

I have nothing else to add here. Enjoy lol

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