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NFL.com: Kirk Cousins tops biggest contracts (Special rule---you can refer to the Redskins in this thread---M.E.T.)

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5 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

We can't really agree to disagree on something I never expressed an opinion on lol...

 

But if you feel the Vikings and Redskins were in pretty much the same situation and circumstances in terms of their rosters and resources when Gruden and Zimmer were hired as head coach, then that we can agree to disagree on.

 

Yep, tough for me to think the team with actually more cap room to play with from the get go in 2014 was the one at a disadvantage because of a cap penalty two years previously -- with that same team run by a GM who doesn't seem to do that hot with FA cash anyway, lol....

 

But agree lets agree to disargee. 

 

 

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18 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yep, tough for me to think the team with actually more cap room to play with from the get go in 2014 was the one at a disadvantage because of a cap penalty two years previously -- with that same team run by a GM who doesn't seem to do that hot with FA cash anyway, lol....

 

But agree lets agree to disargee. 

 

 

That's just not at all what @Califan007 is even saying... come on now.

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15 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

That's just not at all what @Califan007 is even saying... come on now.

 

Thanks for weighing in.  :)  Our FO debators on both sides find each other whatever thread we are on eventually.   I understand what he's saying.  He disagrees that I should be comparing the Vikings and Redskins FO from the context of where the teams were roster wise and where they ended up now because of the cap penalty in 2012.  I disagreed.  I explained why including using actual cap figures that addressed his point apples to apples.  That's it.   But I don't think we should derail the thread into a FO one.  So if you want to debate it further -- if you don't mind throw it on the FO thread and I'll respond.

 

Bringing this back to Kirk.  My feeling on him is simple.  If his season in anyway has any bearing on Bruce's future in the FO -- I hope he has a Dan Marino 1984 like season for the ages.  If it has no bearing, I don't really care.   If the Redskins-Vikings are on a collusion course then I'd root against him -- but I don't have much faith at the moment that such a collusion course is coming. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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On 8/12/2018 at 4:02 PM, JSSkinz said:

3 solid but not flashy throws that anyone can make and then 1 dime to Diggs, Diggs made a great play.

 

Most NFL throws are throws that any NFL QB can make.  The hard part is reading the field and making the decision.

 

Edited by Tsailand
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2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Bringing this back to Kirk.  My feeling on him is simple.  If his season in anyway has any bearing on Bruce's future in the FO -- I hope he has a Dan Marino 1984 like season for the ages.  If it has no bearing, I don't really care.   If the Redskins-Vikings are on a collusion course then I'd root against him -- but I don't have much faith at the moment that such a collusion course is coming. 

It should absolutely have bearing on Bruce's future. Bruce has steered this ship so if Kirk goes Dan Marino 1984 and the Vikes win the Lombardi Bruce can pack his damn bags. If he remains a top 10-12 QB who marches the team between the 20's but still makes the occasional back breaking mistake in critical moments that prevents the Vikings from getting to where they need to be, and in future years impacts who they can retain around him, while Alex lifts us to legitimate playoff contender at a smaller percentage of the cap then I have to think Bruce saves some face there and deserves a little credit. In other words, the story isn't quite written on that one yet.

 

My gut tells me Kirk is a bit of a stat padder, someone who thrives on first and second down with his pre-snap recognition. But there's something off about him on third down. There's something off about him in the red zone. He's not great at off-schedule and certainly doesn't seem to play his biggest in "win and in" type scenarios. All of those things indicate to me someone who loses a bit of confidence in critical situations and key moments. Like he's too processed and too concentrated on perfection that he can't really let loose and play ball when ish starts hitting the fan. He's like the anti Russell Wilson or anti Big-Ben in his early days. Those guys could be having not their best days, but when the last 5-6 minutes roll around the lights go on and everything is put in the rear view and they win the game. None of that's to say Kirk could never lead his team down the field and win games b/c he's shown that he can at times. But ask yourself if you felt truly confident Kirk would deliver in the biggest of moments. I didn't. What I'm describing is somewhat intangible and difficult to communicate. But hopefully you get my point. 

 

All of that is probably why I am far more lenient on Bruce for the way he handled the contract situation.:) Because I don't see special in Cousins. I see Hasselbeck or Schaub - good, competent QBs that can absolutely win with the right cast. But they aren't worth what the QB market now dictates you pay them. But yeah, if I'm wrong, meaning Bruce was wrong, he better be nowhere this team's personnel department. But that story has yet to write itself.

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On 8/13/2018 at 7:18 PM, HardcoreZorn said:

It should absolutely have bearing on Bruce's future. Bruce has steered this ship so if Kirk goes Dan Marino 1984 and the Vikes win the Lombardi Bruce can pack his damn bags. If he remains a top 10-12 QB who marches the team between the 20's but still makes the occasional back breaking mistake in critical moments that prevents the Vikings from getting to where they need to be, and in future years impacts who they can retain around him, while Alex lifts us to legitimate playoff contender at a smaller percentage of the cap then I have to think Bruce saves some face there and deserves a little credit. In other words, the story isn't quite written on that one yet.

 

My gut tells me Kirk is a bit of a stat padder, someone who thrives on first and second down with his pre-snap recognition. But there's something off about him on third down. There's something off about him in the red zone. He's not great at off-schedule and certainly doesn't seem to play his biggest in "win and in" type scenarios. All of those things indicate to me someone who loses a bit of confidence in critical situations and key moments. Like he's too processed and too concentrated on perfection that he can't really let loose and play ball when ish starts hitting the fan. He's like the anti Russell Wilson or anti Big-Ben in his early days. Those guys could be having not their best days, but when the last 5-6 minutes roll around the lights go on and everything is put in the rear view and they win the game. None of that's to say Kirk could never lead his team down the field and win games b/c he's shown that he can at times. But ask yourself if you felt truly confident Kirk would deliver in the biggest of moments. I didn't. What I'm describing is somewhat intangible and difficult to communicate. But hopefully you get my point. 

 

All of that is probably why I am far more lenient on Bruce for the way he handled the contract situation.:) Because I don't see special in Cousins. I see Hasselbeck or Schaub - good, competent QBs that can absolutely win with the right cast. But they aren't worth what the QB market now dictates you pay them. But yeah, if I'm wrong, meaning Bruce was wrong, he better be nowhere this team's personnel department. But that story has yet to write itself.

 

You have very forcefully staked out a position, Kirk's mediocre and limited and Alex is what transformational?  You are right the story is yet to write itself, as for your quarterback evaluations I haven't seen Alex play enough to have an opinion, I just hope you are right about him.

 

I have seen a lot of Kirk and so has the rest of the fanbase.  Some here have always been dismissive of him.  In part, because Kirk outshone the anointed one they emotionally invested in so instead of being relieved and pleased that Kirk was talented when Griffin busted they resented Kirk.  I never understood it, I thought Cousins had the goods the first time out in Cleveland. Kirk was smart enough to run the whole offense, not the remedial playbook Griffin used. 

 

Kirk and his receivers had to carry the Redskins the last three years but that will not be the case in Minnesota because the Vikings have a running game and one of the best defenses in the NFL.  If they stay healthy they could win it all. I think Kirk and company may rip the League a new one this year.  I hope they do and you and the rest of Kirk's detractors here will be honorable enough to turn in your QB evaluator cards. 

Edited by Veryoldschool
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16 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Bringing this back to Kirk.  My feeling on him is simple.  If his season in anyway has any bearing on Bruce's future in the FO -- I hope he has a Dan Marino 1984 like season for the ages.  If it has no bearing, I don't really care.   If the Redskins-Vikings are on a collusion course then I'd root against him -- but I don't have much faith at the moment that such a collusion course is coming. 

That's where I am.  As I expect very little from us this year, (even less with Guice gone)  I dropped Sunday Ticket. If I knew it would end BA's tenure here I'd suffer a 2-14 season ( two 74-3 Puke blowouts) and a Viking SB/ Kirk MVP victory with all Viking fans in the country flooding Dan and Bruce with thank you cards.  After that is accomplished we win the next 16 SBs.

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14 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

You have very forcefully staked out a position, Kirks mediocre and limited and Alex is what transformational? 

 

To be fair he said "if" to start off the sentence. He didn't mention Alex's abilities or his thoughts on him at all, certainly didn't say transformational or imply that. At least that's how I took it. 

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2 hours ago, Busch1724 said:

 

To be fair he said "if" to start off the sentence. He didn't mention Alex's abilities or his thoughts on him at all, certainly didn't say transformational or imply that. At least that's how I took it. 

Nobody is saying that Alex is going to be a transformational or elite QB.  But they do say how much better he is before the snap, in the huddle, as a leader, on the run, and is very accurate hitting receivers in stride.  Among other things.

 

If he's really all those things, why isn't he considered elite or transformational?  Because the same group of people buying into all that will say that Kirk is a good QB not worth the money he wanted.  If Kirk is good, but Alex is smarter, a better leader, lethal with his legs and drops dimes with his arm that Kirk can't - what exactly is Alex Smith?

Edited by BatteredFanSyndrome
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18 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

It should absolutely have bearing on Bruce's future. Bruce has steered this ship so if Kirk goes Dan Marino 1984 and the Vikes win the Lombardi Bruce can pack his damn bags. If he remains a top 10-12 QB who marches the team between the 20's but still makes the occasional back breaking mistake in critical moments that prevents the Vikings from getting to where they need to be, and in future years impacts who they can retain around him, while Alex lifts us to legitimate playoff contender at a smaller percentage of the cap then I have to think Bruce saves some face there and deserves a little credit. In other words, the story isn't quite written on that one yet.

 

Agree.  But my point on Bruce seems to center on some people close to the FO have the vibe that Bruce likely retires or is reassigned once the stadium deal is complete.  And the powers that be around the FO and Dan are very aware that Bruce has become a polarizing figure with much of the fan base.  So good Kirk or bad Kirk might not ultimately be a variable as to his future because other things may be in play.

 

18 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

My gut tells me Kirk is a bit of a stat padder, someone who thrives on first and second down with his pre-snap recognition. But there's something off about him on third down. There's something off about him in the red zone. He's not great at off-schedule and certainly doesn't seem to play his biggest in "win and in" type scenarios. All of those things indicate to me someone who loses a bit of confidence in critical situations and key moments. Like he's too processed and too concentrated on perfection that he can't really let loose and play ball when ish starts hitting the fan. He's like the anti Russell Wilson or anti Big-Ben in his early days. Those guys could be having not their best days, but when the last 5-6 minutes roll around the lights go on and everything is put in the rear view and they win the game. None of that's to say Kirk could never lead his team down the field and win games b/c he's shown that he can at times. But ask yourself if you felt truly confident Kirk would deliver in the biggest of moments. I didn't. What I'm describing is somewhat intangible and difficult to communicate. But hopefully you get my point. 

 

My gut is Kirk is going to kick some serious butt in Minny.  I think he was undervalued here.   It's interesting how much more "clutch" Kirk seems to be AKA 2015 version when Jordan Reed for example was in the lineup.  He had decent success without a defense and a running game for the last 3 seasons.  

 

He has all he needs in Minny -- I suspect we will be on this thread somewhere around week 8 when they are running segments about how Kirk has taken his game to the next level and has easily cemented himself as a top 10 QB -- and some here (not saying you) and more so on twitter will give him no credit for it as if any QB is a stud with a good supporting cast. 

 

Alex is hammered for a lot of the same things from the KC fans that some Redskins fans hammer Kirk for which is the dude isn't a money QB, not a guy that plays well in the clutch, not a good red zone guy, etc.  But a lot of people like to ignore that and just focus on Kirk and Alex's personality.  Alex is such a chilled dude -- of course he's Mr. Clutch because isn't he everything that Kirk isn't?    And this isn't to pick on Alex -- my point is I think there is a lot of emotion invested with Kirk where I don't think some can be objective about it.  I forgot which national guy said it but they had a good point which is Alex needed to move on to be more appreciated for what he brings and ditto Kirk.  So the change is good for both of them.

 

I like Alex but 90% of my feeling about why I didn't love the trade is Alex's age and how that factors with this specific roster.  So I am guessing when we look back at Kirk versus Alex years later -- Bruce won't be vindicated.  But I suspect he will move on well before that -- unless that's wishful thinking on my end. 

 

18 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

All of that is probably why I am far more lenient on Bruce for the way he handled the contract situation.:) Because I don't see special in Cousins. I see Hasselbeck or Schaub - good, competent QBs that can absolutely win with the right cast. But they aren't worth what the QB market now dictates you pay them. But yeah, if I'm wrong, meaning Bruce was wrong, he better be nowhere this team's personnel department. But that story has yet to write itself.

 

I recall you are very lenient on Bruce because from what I recall you frame things as primarily being a straightforward business transaction -- a game of chicken where Bruce didn't blink.  If I saw the negotiation the same way, I'd be lenient on him too.  But that's not the picture that was painted when I listened to people that were supposedly close to the action. 

 

But bringing it back to Alex.  If you are going to the well for the third time to a 34 year old QB and hope that they have a lot left -- it better work this time and the team better make the playoffs otherwise what's the point?    Kirk isn't young anymore himself but I see that 30-34 year old window as the prime perriod for QB excellence not 34-38 with some rare exceptions.  Will see.

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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48 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Nobody is saying that Alex is going to be a transformational or elite QB.  But they do say how much better he is before the snap, in the huddle, as a leader, on the run, and is very accurate hitting receivers in stride.  Among other things.

 

If he's really all those things, why isn't he considered elite or transformational?  Because the same group of people buying into all that will say that Kirk is a good QB not worth the money he wanted.  If Kirk is good, but Alex is smarter, a better leader, lethal with his legs and drops dimes with his arm that Kirk can't - what exactly is Alex Smith?

He is a Redskin Homer's rebound girlfriend. So much better than the old one. You know, until reality sets in a month or two later.

Edited by Fat Stupid Loser
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6 hours ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

He is a Redskin Homer's rebound girlfriend. So much better than the old one. You know, until reality sets in a month or two later.

 

 Alex Smith deserves a lot better than this any guy does but as of right now that is the sad truth.  Hopefully, Alex and company have a great year and by that, I mean they are competitive every week and are still in contention for a playoff spot in December, that is as grand as I can hope now.

Edited by Veryoldschool
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31 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

 Alex Smith deserves a lot better than this any guy does but as of right that is the sad truth. 

This is exactly where I'm at.  I have no ill will towards Alex Smith at all.  Sometimes it gets painted that way though because I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid. 

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1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

 Alex Smith deserves a lot better than this any guy does but as of right that is the sad truth.  Hopefully, Alex and company have a great year and by that, I mean they are competitive every week and are still in contention for a playoff spot in December, that is as grand as I can hope now.

I agree, he does. My comment was not a shot at Alex at all. It was a comment on all the love and he is such an upgrade stuff.  Sadly, as Skin's fans, all many of us have is pre-season hope. And its often over the top. So Alex is the new love. Way better than the last love.

31 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

The Vikes are taking some injuries to their O line, gotta watch that.

Yeah, their O-line is not good. The only real weakness on their team, but it is not a good O-line with all their starters playing. Forget about injuries.

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On 8/12/2018 at 9:57 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yep, tough for me to think the team with actually more cap room to play with from the get go in 2014 was the one at a disadvantage because of a cap penalty two years previously -- with that same team run by a GM who doesn't seem to do that hot with FA cash anyway, lol....

 

But agree lets agree to disargee. 

 

 

 

You’re smarter than this at footsball...

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2 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

The Vikes are taking some injuries to their O line, gotta watch that.

 

3 of their starters were out during Cousins 1 series against Denver.  They opened up holes for Murray and seemed to protect Cousins well enough.  Murray got loose for 2 20 yard runs, the Skins should have the Viking OL!

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1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

3 of their starters were out during Cousins 1 series against Denver.  They opened up holes for Murray and seemed to protect Cousins well enough.  Murray got loose for 2 20 yard runs, the Skins should have the Viking OL!

 

Yep, and did you see Colt McCoy?...Why did we trade for Alex Smith, McCoy looked just as good. The Rams look like they’re gonna suck this year as well. 

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16 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

Yep, and did you see Colt McCoy?...Why did we trade for Alex Smith, McCoy looked just as good. The Rams look like they’re gonna suck this year as well. 

 

Yeah, Colt played well.  I haven't seen Alex Smith play enough to have an opinion.  Only a 3 or 4 games split between the 49ers and KC, but I hope he's good.

Edited by Veryoldschool

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Preseason pass rush is a joke. When the real games start, Kirk is going to need his quick release and then some.

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23 hours ago, Califan007 said:

The Rams look like they’re gonna suck this year as well. 

 

Bro, the Rams are stacked. Was this sarcasm?  

 

On 8/15/2018 at 3:02 AM, Fat Stupid Loser said:

Yeah, their O-line is not good. The only real weakness on their team, but it is not a good O-line with all their starters playing. Forget about injuries.

 

I don't know anything about their OL, but if you're right, Cousin's will get hurt. 

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1 hour ago, TheShredder said:

I don't know anything about their OL, but if you're right, Cousin's will get hurt. 

 

 

Kirk managed to play behind guys fresh from the bus station last fall and without a running game.  He's gone sweetheart, time to let him go.

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2 hours ago, TheShredder said:

 

 

 

 

I don't know anything about their OL, but if you're right, Cousin's will get hurt. 

I check out a Vikings board now and then to see what they are saying about our ex. They are in a bit of a panic over the o-line injuries. Very upset they didn't address the line in the draft and FA. "Spent a lot on a real QB but can't protect him". "Kirk thinks his O-line was bad last year, wait til he sees ours".  Stuff like that. 

I mean, they are starting Tom Compton for crying out loud.

Edited by Fat Stupid Loser
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1 hour ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

I mean, they are starting Tom Compton for crying out loud.

Now there's a name I haven't heard in many moons. Funny how Morgan Moses put the RT position to rest 3 years ago. Feels like Tyler Polumbus and Tom Compton were ages ago.

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8 hours ago, NickyJ said:

Now there's a name I haven't heard in many moons. Funny how Morgan Moses put the RT position to rest 3 years ago. Feels like Tyler Polumbus and Tom Compton were ages ago.

Actually, the memories of Tyler Polumbus are still fresh in my mind.  And by memories, I mean nightmares.

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