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NFL.com: Kirk Cousins tops biggest contracts (Special rule---you can refer to the Redskins in this thread---M.E.T.)

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You got two different pivot points as for trading Kirk.  One mattered.  One arguably did not and is irrelevant in the discussion. 

 

1. 2017.  That's when supposedly Scot said according to one report they should trade him according to one story.  But even if that wasn't true that was the time to do it.  You do it before the salary got crazy and when you actually have leverage.

 

https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/03/10/report-ex-washington-gm-fired-for-wanting-to-trade-kirk-cousins/

“The real issue is that McCloughan clashed over football decisions with team president Bruce Allen and coach Jay Gruden,” reported Cole, a longtime NFL insider. “McCloughan had planned to trade Kirk Cousins this offseason, pursue a veteran and draft another quarterback. However, Allen and Gruden wanted none of that plan.” 

 

2. 2018.  It's too late to trade Kirk especially post the trade for Alex.  The money is high, leverage is totally gone.  

 

When people said they should have traded Kirk no one is referring as 2018 as the pivot point for it.  Yeah they might have had a shot at it pre Alex Smith trade, and I would have at least made an attempt then, but even that was iffy because the leverage was gone and teams knew that they just had to wait the Redskins out for a few weeks.  Once the Alex trade was done it was impossible because any tiny bit of leverage they had was gone let alone there was mention that the players association might sue them for violating the spirit of the tag.

 

The Eagles the same team that fleeced us for McNabb.  Same coach later got us for Alex.  Same team that got high picks for Bradford and Kolb and Feeley have now seen the light and would rather have a 3rd comp pick for their QB?    That's silly.  I followed the story last year with Foles.  They could have likely traded him last year.  But coming off a SB year they didn't want to go into the season without someone who can takeover from an injury prone Wentz.

 

If people want to pat Bruce on the back, the only way to use the Eagles as way to do it IMO is this way.  The Eagles could have decided not to worry about the 2018 season and just ride it without potentially a bonafide starting QB if Wentz wasn't right.  They didn't want to do that. And didn't want a potential major step down coming off of a SB.    According to Finlay who covered this story closely at the time he said the reason he heard why Bruce didn't want to trade Kirk in 2017 was because everything with the FO is about winning that given season and they thought they'd have a better chance to do that with Kirk and they'd worry about what's next later.   So if the idea is winning is now -- yeah Redskins operated purely in that context similar to the Eagles. 

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/eagles/why-eagles-didnt-trade-nick-foles

This is why the Eagles didn't trade Nick Foles

This is why the Eagles didn’t trade Nick Foles. 

This exact scenario. 

Because a few months ago, it had to look enticing. Foles was coming off winning the Super Bowl MVP and his value was at an all-time high. Not to mention, if all went to plan, he was going to start the season on the bench. 

But the Eagles didn’t trade Foles. Instead, they actually gave him a raise. 

And although Howie Roseman on Saturday wouldn’t admit Carson Wentz’s status had anything to do with not trading Foles, that seems hard to believe. Roseman said it was more about putting a ton of stock into the QB position, which is probably partly true too. But the Eagles simply couldn’t afford to go into the 2018 season without Wentz or Foles. 

But they didn’t trade Foles, so they won’t have to. 

Foles is going to start Week 1 as Wentz continues to rehab from a torn ACL and LCL, according to NFL Network’s Ian Rapoport. And because Roseman avoided the temptation to flip Foles, the Eagles are uniquely positioned — perhaps more than any other team in the league — to get by without an MVP candidate for the first week or two. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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8 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

You’ve gotta be kidding with this pile of doo-doo.  The same Eagles who fleeced the Redskins for McNugget? that got value for Sam Bradford? that were solid forever, burnt to flames, and won a SB shortly thereafter? the same Eagles that also have Carson Wentz?

 

We could only wish that our situation was even remotely anything like theirs.  If the Skins had a Carson Wentz type QB, nobody would care about Cousins or what they got for him.  When you haven’t had anything remotely resembling a competent starter for decades, and when you do you pay him 44M over 2 seasons to take a looksie and get nothing in return, and then double down on it by overpaying for his replacement, yeah -it’s safe to say you’re incompetent.

 

He mad!

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@Skinsinparadise

 

Foles had a cheap salary last year, so yes his value was higher then. No debate from me. The player’s contract at time of trade is one of the central pieces to any deal getting done and Foles had a cheap year left on his deal. An opportunity for a team to take a flier for cheap or extend his deal and leverage Fole’s remaining year to create a more affordable overall contract. 

 

The game is changing in way of player contracts, trades, and QB value. The Skins got smacked in face with it first and didn’t respond to the markets overpricing of average to above QBs at the time. I say at the time, because I believe the bubble has popped and a guy like Foles will not get a $25mil per year deal. The NFL is reversing the trend, IMHO. 

 

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4 minutes ago, wit33 said:

@Skinsinparadise

 

Foles had a cheap salary last year, so yes his value was higher then. No debate from me. The player’s contract at time of trade is one of the central pieces to any deal getting done and Foles had a cheap year left on his deal. An opportunity for a team to take a flier for cheap or extend his deal and leverage Fole’s remaining year to create a more affordable overall contract. 

 

 

 

Your theory if I follow it is you can hit a point of no return on a contract where trade value is prohibitive.  If i am following you right, I actually agree with that point.  In Kirk's situation IMO that point was the beginning of 2018.  Ditto with Foles this year.  Leverage gone, contract price up at its peak and the kicker is all these teams have to do is wait it out for a few weeks and the dude is a FA so why bother with a trade.  The Eagles in a way were screwed even more because there aren't as many buyers arguably in this market and there is also potentially more viable options in FA. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Your theory if I follow it is you can hit a point of no return on a contract where trade value is prohibitive.  If i am following you right, I actually agree with that point.  In Kirk's situation IMO that point was the beginning of 2018.  Ditto with Foles this year.  Leverage gone, contract price up at its peak and the kicker is all these teams have to do is wait it out for a few weeks and the dude is a FA so why bother with a trade.  The Eagles in a way were screwed even more because there aren't as many buyers arguably in this market and there is also potentially more viable options in FA. 

 

Its been my belief the Skins lacked leverage throughout the Kirk situation, due to him exploding for final 8 games during his last year on rookie deal. if a debate is wanted on Skins signing him to franchise tag per year salary (20mil a season) post 2015 season that’s fine.

 

The FO decided his value didn’t warrant that, just because it goes against tradition doesn’t bother me. It appears Skins situation will not be as unique and crazy as time goes (Bell and Foles). As I’ve shared before, the NFL players are doing their best to shift how things are done, precisely as players have done in the NBA over last 10 years. 

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18 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Its been my belief the Skins lacked leverage throughout the Kirk situation, due to him exploding for final 8 games during his last year on rookie deal. if a debate is wanted on Skins signing him to franchise tag per year salary (20mil a season) post 2015 season that’s fine.

 

The FO decided his value didn’t warrant that, just because it goes against tradition doesn’t bother me. It appears Skins situation will not be as unique and crazy as time goes (Bell and Foles). As I’ve shared before, the NFL players are doing their best to shift how things are done, precisely as players have done in the NBA over last 10 years. 

 

Agree with the thesis of your point but not the specifics of Kirk.  Heard plenty at the time that SF were willing to give up a first plus for Kirk in 2017 (one reporter wasn't sure and thought they'd chance waiting Kirk out) but Dan and Bruce didn't want to deal with Kyle.  I recall the stories then about Scot wanting to deal him then too, and it wasn't for a ham sandwich.  But no way to know since they decided not to trade him.  So its speculation on your end and mine. 

 

ironically just now

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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@Skinsinparadise

 

The Gruden comment lol. Hope that gets to Jay, I’m sure he’ll have a nice retort for his older brother. 

 

The elites are on a whole other playing field and that’s what Mack is. Rules and logic be damned for those kind of guys. 

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18 minutes ago, wit33 said:

@Skinsinparadise

 

The Gruden comment lol. Hope that gets to Jay, I’m sure he’ll have a nice retort for his older brother. 

 

The elites are on a whole other playing field and that’s what Mack is. Rules and logic be damned for those kind of guys. 

 

I get your point, disagree with most but not all of your angle on Kirk but lets agree to disagree.  As I said on this thread before the season, I had one interest related to Kirk and that is does anything related to him damage Bruce's rep and if so am rooting for it.  It happened to Bruce with or without Kirk so I don't care what crime so to speak sends Bruce packing.  According to the beat guys Bruce is under the gun with a win or else season.  you got 13,000 plus fans signed a petition wanting Bruce gone.  He's more maligned as Sheehan likes to say than even Cerrato was. 

 

So Bruce on the ropes.  That's likely cooking.  So for me Kirk is now a boring topic.   If Kirk bounces back with a big year or not in 2019 it doesn't look like it will influence Bruce's job status -- he has plenty of other problems.  That's the only angle i care about.  If people care about other aspects of this -- that's cool to each their own. 😀  With Jay-Doug talking today, all the news about Kyler, QB talk, etc.   To me the Kirk stuff is yawn.   Kirk is the past.  We got to find a NEW QB that to me is very interesting. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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The news about the Eagles not able to get any value above a 3rd isn’t a dig at Kirk, more about the perceived value Skins weren’t taking advantage of in a trade (something more than a 3rd rounder) involving Kirk. That logic by the masses is being proven to be incorrect. 

 

Does the Foles news not parallel that of Skins and Kirk? The Skins situation provided history for Eagles to explore and eventually it led to same result. 

 

Okay, I’m done. 

 

@Skinsinparadise

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3 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

He mad!

No, just pointing out that your comparison is apples to oranges.  We wish we had the Eagles problems.

Edited by BatteredFanSyndrome

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42 minutes ago, wit33 said:

The news about the Eagles not able to get any value above a 3rd isn’t a dig at Kirk, more about the perceived value Skins weren’t taking advantage of in a trade (something more than a 3rd rounder) involving Kirk. That logic by the masses is being proven to be incorrect. 

 

 

100% disagree, no logic was disapproved on anything not even a whit IMO.  Apples to oranges situation with Foles.  The Eagles didn't have a 2017 situation with Foles similar to Kirk.  You are acting like its all about January 2018 because that's the only analogous part of the Foles-Kirk situation -- you are steps down the road in that how negotiation debacle wherever everyone agrees with your point including me -- no one thought trading Kirk in early 2018 would be easy.   It's all about 2017 that's the pivot point.  You say Mack is apples to oranges so it doesn't apply.  Fine.  So it your Foles-Kirk situation.   But you can have the last word on this.  To me its a boring topic.  We are in the the throes of dealing with actually solving the current mess at QB -- its almost depressing to me to wallow in what I and most fans see as their mistakes in 2017 as to that position. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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28 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

No, just pointing out that your comparison is apples to oranges.  We wish we had the Eagles problems.

 

Guy who immediately tried to steer the discussion to Donovan McNabb/John Beck talking points, now goes to the apples and oranges route.

 

And the Eagles do have a problem...they’re all in on damaged goods at qb.  It’s entirely possible, if not likely, that the Skins will be in a better spot at qb by training camp 2020.

 

Edit: I’m also amused @Skinsinparadise dropping 1500 words in an hour then doing a quick pivot to claiming he finds the topic “boring”.  Good stuff!

Edited by TryTheBeal!
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7 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

Guy who immediately tried to steer the discussion to Donovan McNabb/John Beck talking points, now goes to the apples and oranges route.

 

And the Eagles do have a problem...they’re all in on damaged goods at qb.  It’s entirely possible, if not likely, that the Skins will be in a better spot at qb by training camp 2020.

 

Edit: I’m also amused @Skinsinparadise dropping 1500 words in an hour then doing a quick pivot to claiming he finds the topic “boring”.  Good stuff!

 

I haven't posted on this site for eons until recently.  So I figured I'd weigh in since the season ended on said topic.   I am not a regular on this thread like you.   I didn't even mention John Beck so you are going on a wild ride.  I know how impassioned you are about Kirk and Bruce.   Enjoy.   Yep Eagles are the ones screwed at QB and we might be the ones sitting pretty. 😯  Why not?   To each their own.  😉

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I haven't posted on this site for eons until recently.  So I figured I'd weigh in since the season ended on said topic.   I am not a regular on this thread like you.   I didn't even mention John Beck so you are going on a wild ride.  I know how impassioned you are about Kirk and Bruce.   Enjoy.   Yep Eagles are the ones screwed at QB and we might be the ones sitting pretty. 😯  Why not?   To each their own.  😉

 

Passive-aggressive surrender with pearl-clutching, victim card, gaslighting bonus...Flawless Victory!

 

To each their own!😂

Edited by TryTheBeal!

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6 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

Passive-aggressive surrender with pearl-clutching, victim card, gaslighting bonus...Flawless Victory!

 

To each their own!😂

 

Yep, no comeback to the the Redskins are likely in better shape than the Eagles with QB and will take a victory lap for this.  Brilliant insight.  Good football discussion.  Thank you.  😁

2 minutes ago, Llevron said:

This is still my favorite topic I dont care what yall say. 

 

 

 

They are in the midst of full bore search for their next QB and what happens or doesn't happen with Kirk is more interesting?   I am watching Jay's interview right now via my phone talking about this. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

They are in the midst of full bore search for their next QB and what happens or doesn't happen with Kirk is more interesting?  

 

Do you need me to explain it in crayon? 

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2 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Do you need me to explain it in crayon? 

 

OK sarcasm = anger.  I am not trying to give you a hard time or want to trade insults.  I just find the QB quest really interesting.  Kirk not so much.   But that's me. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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It's amazing how the narratives have changed in the past 3 years.

 

Up until the Vikings missed the post-season, the narrative is "Kirk Cousins is the best thing ever (tm) and if you disagree you're a Bruce Allen fan." No discussion, no debate, you're only choice is to kiss Kirk's ring (oh wait, he doesn't have one lol) or be an outcast.

 

Now that it's over, the narrative is "I just hoped that Kirk would do well." That's funny. For the entirety of last season, every "I hope Kirk does well" was layered in 5 paragraphs of "Kirk is flawless, did you see him trounce the 49ers?" Kirk being successful was declared as fact, and anyone who denied that fact was insane and/or evil. Now they come crawling back with "I never said I believed it, I just hoped for it". Yeah, no, people who beat his drum for 3 years, that was more than just hoping lol

Edited by NickyJ
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5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK sarcasm = anger.  I am not trying to give you a hard time or want to trade insults.  I just find the QB quest really interesting.  Kirk not so much.   But that's me. 

 

First of all, im just trying to help you. Crayons are awesome, fun and easy to understand. Whats your problem with crayons?  

Second sarcasm does not = anger. On the contrary, it is a form of expression that actually signifies intelligence and fosters creativity. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-surprising-benefits-of-sarcasm/

I mean, when was the last time you used and equal sign in a post on a football website. We aint doing quadratic expressions in this joint. Yea. You're welcome. 

 

But if I dont need crayon, then ill keep it brief. I was excited when we were looking at Sexy Rexy/that Mormon dude. I was excited when we got Mcnible. I was excited when we got Griffin. I was excited when Kurt made everyone "like that". Hell I was excited when ol' peg leg started 6-1 or whatever it was. But I learn from my mistakes and I dont get excited about too much of anything Redskins related because I know we will find a way to **** this up too. And if im wrong then ill be excited lol. 

 

Finally, Kirk Cousins in his situation is the perfect example of my argument that paying a mediocre QB just because you cant find anyone better is worse than looking for a new young guy every year. That has been my argument for years now. And now I get the chance to see it play out. I am very much looking forward to the outcome. Much more than I am looking forward to watching the Skins disappoint me again. 

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59 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

Guy who immediately tried to steer the discussion to Donovan McNabb/John Beck talking points, now goes to the apples and oranges route.

 

And the Eagles do have a problem...they’re all in on damaged goods at qb.  It’s entirely possible, if not likely, that the Skins will be in a better spot at qb by training camp 2020.

I’ll give you this, I’m still curious if you actually believe in the things you post here or just trolling for jollies.

 

The entire point is that the Redskins and in particular, the regime for the past decade, has notoriously fumbled the QB position and paid a mint to do so.  Having 2 QB’s teams want is a good problem that this team wishes they had an opportunity to mess up.  It’s foolish to suggest that the Eagles current situation is anything remotely like the Redskins.  But that’s kind of your schtick.

Edited by BatteredFanSyndrome
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13 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

It's amazing how the narratives have changed in the past 3 years.

 

Up until the Vikings missed the post-season, the narrative is "Kirk Cousins is the best thing ever (tm) and if you disagree you're a Bruce Allen fan." No discussion, no debate, you're only choice is to kiss Kirk's ring (oh wait, he doesn't have one lol) or be an outcast.

 

Now that it's over, the narrative is "I just hoped that Kirk would do well." That's funny. For the entirety of last season, every "I hope Kirk does well" was layered in 5 paragraphs of "Kirk is flawless, did you see him trounce the 49ers?" Kirk being successful was declared as fact, and anyone who denied that fact was insane and/or evil. Now they come crawling back with "I never said I believed it, I just hoped for it". Yeah, no, people who beat his drum for 3 years, that was more than just hoping lol

Not sure if you are just being hyperbolic to hype yourself up or actually believe that.  Much of the insane talk actually relates to the weirdos constantly digging at Kirk’s character, not his play.  I didn’t see anyone hiding from the fact that Kirk’s play was ass at the end of the season.  

 

It’s been a while now, so I can’t recall if we gave the RG3 Stans as much grief or appeared to relish in his downfall to the extent you guys do about Kirk.  

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25 minutes ago, Llevron said:

I was excited when we were looking at Sexy Rexy/that Mormon dude. I was excited when we got Mcnible. I was excited when we got Griffin. I was excited when Kurt made everyone "like that". Hell I was excited when ol' peg leg started 6-1 or whatever it was. But I learn from my mistakes and I dont get excited about too much of anything Redskins related because I know we will find a way to **** this up too. And if im wrong then ill be excited lol. 

 

OK got it.  Tough to get excited about what's next because you don't think the next thing works out.    I get the feeling but heck they could get lucky?   The Browns messed up the QB position for years but it looks like they finally got it right.   You never know.   😀

 

25 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Finally, Kirk Cousins in his situation is the perfect example of my argument that paying a mediocre QB just because you cant find anyone better is worse than looking for a new young guy every year. That has been my argument for years now. And now I get the chance to see it play out. I am very much looking forward to the outcome. Much more than I am looking forward to watching the Skins disappoint me again. 

 

Like you I've gotten excited about most of the new Qbs that were brought in.  Among that group, I didn't think Kirk was mediocre.    I thought he was good to very good.  But not special.  Not elite.  I think Scot summed him up well in his interviews.  I was in favor of signing him in 2016 and 2017 but not at 28 million in 2018.  Still feel the same about him now.  His career isn't over.  He had a down year.  Maybe he bounces back and maybe he doesn't.   I guess we all have our unique angles on this.  My angle once he was gone was can he be used as a tool to help dislodge Bruce.

 

I've noticed there is some overlap with pro Bruce and anti Kirk sentiment with some.  And there are some people who don't like Kirk and also don't like Bruce.  I am ok with the later group typically.  Heck one of the best rapports I have with someone on another thread is with someone who is big time anti-Kirk.  So I don't take this stuff personally.   As for the pro-Bruce crowd and I recall you aren't among them --  I don't think the dude is the right guy to lead this team and I don't care what player or what situation brings that home with the owner.  I felt that way before Kirk's contract wasn't even a topic and hit it hard on some threads years back.  That's my button.  As for the player -- whether its Kirk, Campbell, RG3, etc I tend to lose some interest over time once they leave.  So why am I posting in the last few days -- its simply because I haven't weighed in after the season.  Doing it now.  I probably won't weigh in for a long time after this.  But I get your angle on this.  thanks

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK got it.  Tough to get excited about what's next because you don't think the next thing works out.    I get the feeling but heck they could get lucky?   The Browns messed up the QB position for years but it looks like they finally got it right.   You never know.   😀


I mean If you want me to be honest. Having Griffin AND Kirk on the same squad when we did was really hard to mess up. But Shanny let his ego get in the way and we changed the defense. **** like that is what kills the skins. I'm confident the browns will find a way to do the same thing. Think if the defense Jason Played with, with Griffin running the ball and scoring 30 every other game. We coulda won it his rookie year. Same with Kirk. He was perfect in the Shannies offense. But they ****ed the defense. Thats Redskins **** man. We wont stop until it changed from the top. 

 

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Like you I've gotten excited about most of the new Qbs that were brought in.  Among that group, I didn't think Kirk was mediocre.    I thought he was good to very good.  But not special.  Not elite.  I think Scot summed him up well in his interviews.  I was in favor of signing him in 2016 and 2017 but not at 28 million in 2018.  Still feel the same about him now.  His career isn't over.  He had a down year.  Maybe he bounces back and maybe he doesn't.   I guess we all have our unique angles on this.  My angle once he was gone was can he be used as a tool to help dislodge Bruce.

 

His record is the definition of mediocre. We have litigated this before lol. The thing about him is he puts up great stats. Most of the time. But he only wins half of the time. He stuffs that stat sheet like no one else. Last year he didn't have a down year really in any statistical category if I remember correctly. He had the same year he always had, basically. 

 

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I've noticed there is some overlap with pro Bruce and anti Kirk sentiment with some.  And there are some people who don't like Kirk and also don't like Bruce.  I am ok with the later group typically.  Heck one of the best rapports I have with someone on another thread is with someone who is big time anti-Kirk.  So I don't take this stuff personally.   As for the pro-Bruce crowd and I recall you aren't among them --  I don't think the dude is the right guy to lead this team and I don't care what player or what situation brings that home with the owner.  I felt that way before Kirk's contract wasn't even a topic and hit it hard on some threads years back.  That's my button.  As for the player -- whether its Kirk, Campbell, RG3, etc I tend to lose some interest over time once they leave. 

 

I dont see Kirk and Bruce related at all honestly. Whats funny about that now that I think about it is that I stopped liking Bruce because he showed how ****ing childish he was with the Kirk thing. Hes a horrible leader. The fact that he kept calling his starting QB by the wrong name is just so dumb its hard to fathom a grown man being that way. 

 

We dont have to agree on stuff. And my sarcasm isnt meant for you to take personally. Im just a dick at heart. 

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