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NFL.com: Kirk Cousins tops biggest contracts (Special rule---you can refer to the Redskins in this thread---M.E.T.)

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On 3/16/2018 at 2:06 PM, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

:ols::rofl89::rofl89::rofl89::ols:

 

The article I just read said the Jets offered 30M per year, all guaranteed.  2M PY above what the Vikings offered up front.  Once Kirk's agent advised the interested teams that his first visit would be to Minnesota, the Jets came back and offered several more million per year and it fell on deaf ears.

 

But yeah, he's just a greed monger out to damage the league.  The depths of despair some of you loony toons will dive into saddens me.  If you don't think every player in the league minus DHall (is he even still a player?) is indebted to Cousins and his agent for how they played this out, you're out of your damn mind.  The only folks that think this "damages the league" are the fat cat owners that have been getting nothing but richer being ruthless in their approach to the players forever.  

 

 

 

Of course it's all about the money and the right situation too.  Was it 100% greed driven?  No, otherwise he would have taken the Jets offer.  He has the richest contract offer in NFL history with the Vikings, and in comes a late offer from the Jets.  Why would he want to play for the Jets?  The Vikings give him the best chance to win a Super Bowl over the duration of his contract.  

 

It's easier to pass up $2 million/yr more when you are already being paid the richest contract in the league that came from a better team, with a better chance of winning a Super Bowl.  My initial thoughts on this (which I posted in the Kirk thread that's now locked) was that there would be a claim that it's not all about the money because I predicted the Jets probably would offer 30 mil/yr over 3 and he would still sign with the Vikes.  

 

If Kirk was honest about loving the DC area, the fans, team, etc. and wanting to finish his career here, then he would have negotiated a LTD or tried to.  Instead he blew smoke up everyone's asses and refused to entertain any offers from the team unless the franchise tag was applied again.  He didn't want to be here and his actions showed that and in addition, he kept using the tag price as base negotiations with the team.  That's a big screw you to the team, especially when he doesn't use that figure with other teams (because it doesn't apply to them as they can't tag him).  

 

He chose to maximize his earnings while here, as he should.  But he also flat out lied about wanting to be here.  And he accepted an offer that made him the highest paid player in NFL history, regardless if he turned down an offer worth a little more by another team.  It's hard to say, but what if the Vikes only offered him 24 mil/yr over 3, fully guaranteed and didn't allow no trade and no transition tag clauses and the Jets make the same offer (or one that is higher, say 26-28 mil/yr)?  I'm betting he takes the Jets offer in that scenario.  Of course we will never know since it never happened.  

 

Now, damaging to the league?  Not at all.  Just a different approach by Kirk/agent, that worked and got him paid.  One that future players might try to pursue (if tagged), or maybe they won't, but Kirk's path has opened the door for other players.  But in order for that to work in their favor, a team would have to tag a player two years in a row.  Not that many players get tagged each year anyhow (as of late) and they typically are not the QB position.  

 

And if teams are willing to fully guarantee contracts over short terms like the Vikes did for Kirk, so be it.  It's their cap space and deal to work with.  Don't see how it will ruin the league.  It will just change the way contract negotiations work moving forward.  And nobody is forcing teams to offer contracts like that.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

But he also flat out lied about wanting to be here. 

Perhaps I missed it, but I never felt like anything he said about wanting to be here was over the top or conclusive.  It wasn't flat out anything.  I'm sure there are things he did like about being here while at the same time he's not going to talk about what he doesn't like about being here.  I'm not sure what you guys wanted from him.  To just flat out throw a temper tantrum and tell the world he thinks Bruce is garbage and wants nothing to do with any organization he leads?

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1 hour ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Vikings @ eagles to start the 2018 season! 

 

That should be interesting. :)

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4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Perhaps I missed it, but I never felt like anything he said about wanting to be here was over the top or conclusive.  It wasn't flat out anything.  I'm sure there are things he did like about being here while at the same time he's not going to talk about what he doesn't like about being here.  I'm not sure what you guys wanted from him.  To just flat out throw a temper tantrum and tell the world he thinks Bruce is garbage and wants nothing to do with any organization he leads?

 

I really could care less if he didn't want to be in DC.  I roll with and support who is on the team.  But I want the players to just be straight up honest and not blow smoke up peoples asses by saying the right things, or fluffing it up.  And while he was not over the top, he repeatedly stated that he wanted to be here and it wasn't about the money, etc.

 

But his actions (refusing to even talk LTD unless the tag was applied, filing a grievance against the team if tagged after the ASmith trade was negotiated, etc.) all point to it being about the money (for the most part - which there is nothing wrong with that), not wanting to be in DC anymore and not wanting to help out the team (again, don't blame him for that either).  

 

If he wanted to be here, then he would have told Bruce, I'm looking for a 3 year deal, worth $X million/yr, fully guaranteed with a no tag/trade clause and let the team have a chance to either accept his terms or counter offer.  The absolute worst thing that happens is they say "No".  Instead, he refuses to even talk about a LTD unless tagged, which we know darn good and well that if tagged a 3rd time, he would use the tag price as his starting negotiations for a LTD even though that would be a ridiculous price of 34.5 mil/yr.  He did that the past two tags, he wanted $24 million/yr as the base negotiation last year.  

 

I don't fault him for leaving, not at all, the FO had a chance to pay him $20/mil per year three years ago and decided he wasn't worth it and failed the team and us fans.  I just don't like hearing all the fluff talk when we know it wasn't true.  He doesn't have to pitch a tantrum or throw anyone under the bus.  But it wouldn't hurt to be honest and keep it simple (and be open to contract negotiations prior to being tagged).  Something like, "I love the area, fans, team, etc.  I hope to be here in the future, but that will depend on what offer  the team makes.  And I may have the opportunity to test the market, which interests me.  So it really depends on how much is offered, which team(s) are offering, the city, coaching staff and players.  Is it a contender, is a team on the rise, etc.  So whether that is in DC or another football city, we will find out soon."

 

  

 

 

 

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Do some of you people actually think that players and their agents, accountants, etc. are so stupid that they don't factor in cost of living, tax rates, etc?  You can't just look at absolute contract numbers and dismiss the "greed" claim.

 

https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-living-calculator.aspx

 

I just did a quick calculation in the above calculator.  Granted, at millions of dollars, I'm sure there are some distorting variables, so I kept it at 100K.

 

Well, to maintain 100K lifestyle in NY area when moving to Minneapolis, one needs only $47,500.

 

Home prices go from 1.5 million in NY to 350K for comps in Minnesota. 

 

While Minnesota's tax bracket for people like Kirk is higher than NY state's, throw in NYC income tax. Now I don't know the rules for the Jets, do they only count as New Jersey?

 

Well, NJ's top tax rate is pretty high and I'd bet property taxes aren't small either.

 

There's a reason Rush Limbaugh moved to Florida while still doing his show.  And why people like to avoid signing in Canada if they cant in the NBA.

 

To so breezily dismiss any possibility that Kirk is greedy because of absolute figures on a contract is stupid.  Im also not saying he's some team-killing greedy maniac, just immediately noted that people put stock in the extra two million as 'proof' of something when it's not at all.

 

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Hardly a surprise. Been saying forever that Kirk thought Bruce and Danny were bad people doing a bad job. Biggest factor in him wanting out.

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On 3/17/2018 at 10:57 PM, Califan007 said:

 

I'm not talking only about records, though. We ALL know as Skins fans that Cousins tend to start off the season slow, misses open receivers, leaves points on the field, throws head-scratching INTs. He has a TD percentage of 2.3% during the first two games of the season during his time as starter and has thrown 5 TDs in 6 games. That is abysmal. Doesn't matter if the Skins won or lost the game...that's pathetic. He only averaged 7 ypa in those combined games as well...mediocre. Those are not the types of performances that will get anyone the highest contract in NFL history.

2

 

This was really my main gripe and concern with KC. He did start slow, every year. Frustrating, but somehow he was able to flip a switch and get things going.

 

Maybe Zimmer, knowing this tendency, will be able to knock that rust off faster. KC will do well in Minny. There will be a lot of really good games to watch and see how he pans out. Looks like ES peeps will be watching a lot of Vikings games this year!

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17 hours ago, Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin said:

Do some of you people actually think that players and their agents, accountants, etc. are so stupid that they don't factor in cost of living, tax rates, etc?  You can't just look at absolute contract numbers and dismiss the "greed" claim.

 

https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-living-calculator.aspx

 

I just did a quick calculation in the above calculator.  Granted, at millions of dollars, I'm sure there are some distorting variables, so I kept it at 100K.

 

Well, to maintain 100K lifestyle in NY area when moving to Minneapolis, one needs only $47,500.

 

Home prices go from 1.5 million in NY to 350K for comps in Minnesota. 

 

While Minnesota's tax bracket for people like Kirk is higher than NY state's, throw in NYC income tax. Now I don't know the rules for the Jets, do they only count as New Jersey?

 

Well, NJ's top tax rate is pretty high and I'd bet property taxes aren't small either.

 

There's a reason Rush Limbaugh moved to Florida while still doing his show.  And why people like to avoid signing in Canada if they cant in the NBA.

 

To so breezily dismiss any possibility that Kirk is greedy because of absolute figures on a contract is stupid.  Im also not saying he's some team-killing greedy maniac, just immediately noted that people put stock in the extra two million as 'proof' of something when it's not at all.

 

 

Of course that is all factored in along with the amount offered, team/organization making the offer, the status of the team (contenders or rebuilding, etc.), the players/talent on the team, how much of a window to win a Super Bowl with the current roster, the actual city itself, weather, etc.  

 

That was my point to those claiming it wasn't about the money because he turned down the Jets offer which was 2 mill/yr higher.  The money is absolutely a factor along with a ton of other things.  I wouldn't call Kirk greedy by any means either.  The man was going to get paid the highest contract ever, regardless of turning down one that was a tad higher.  And it is a lot cheaper to live in MN versus the NY/NJ area he would live in.  

 

I'm sure him being a father now and raising his kid was a big factor too.  I'd rather raise a family in MN than in NYC/NJ area.  Kirk brewed the perfect storm and created the perfect situation for him and his family.  It's actually brilliant, the man will have made $128 million over 5 years, all fully guaranteed.  Even if he plays poorly and hits FA in 2021 and gets journeyman QB contracts and bounces teams, he is still set for life.  

 

Again, my only beef was the repeated fluff interviews about wanting to be in DC.  And then not even working with the team on trying a LTD or just telling them we want this and nothing less and giving the team a chance to say no or yes.  And when I say beef, it doesn't bother me that much, I just get slightly agitated when you know someone is saying the right things to appear like a choir boy when he didn't have to and could have just been honest about him wanting to test free agency and see what offers he gets.  

 

Now we see what his father said, basically calling the Redskins organization a bunch of clown shoes.  Not that he is wrong, but it further shows he never had any intentions of wanting to stay here, which most of us knew when he got the 2nd tag last year.  

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DTMB,

 

I'm not even calling Kirk anything, just stating that looking purely at numbers doesn't tell you much about motivation.

 

I agree with Kirk's dad that Minnesota seems well run, they win even when the QB is mediocre (Bridgewater) and I think it's an overall good fit for him.  I also believe that Kirk really did look at the prices paid by Bruce for not committing earlier and says, "I'll never win here."

 

Sad thing is, I think Dan thought he was doing the right thing.  I thought he was doing the right thing.  But something with the McCloughan stuff has brought out a really ugly side of Allen.  It's time to move on.

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8 hours ago, rick7423 said:

 

This was really my main gripe and concern with KC. He did start slow, every year. Frustrating, but somehow he was able to flip a switch and get things going.

 

Maybe Zimmer, knowing this tendency, will be able to knock that rust off faster. KC will do well in Minny. There will be a lot of really good games to watch and see how he pans out. Looks like ES peeps will be watching a lot of Vikings games this year!

 

If they get Cook, um, cookin' lol...that will help a ton, I believe. Cousins will always have his mid-season stretch of games where he's looking All-Pro in a lot of them. If he can lean on their running game and defense until then, they're golden.

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I would just make cousins take more reps in preseason to get him ready for the beginning of the year. 

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On 3/17/2018 at 10:57 PM, Califan007 said:

I'm not talking only about records, though. We ALL know as Skins fans that Cousins tend to start off the season slow, misses open receivers, leaves points on the field, throws head-scratching INTs. He has a TD percentage of 2.3% during the first two games of the season during his time as starter and has thrown 5 TDs in 6 games. That is abysmal. Doesn't matter if the Skins won or lost the game...that's pathetic. He only averaged 7 ypa in those combined games as well...mediocre. Those are not the types of performances that will get anyone the highest contract in NFL history.

I'm actually kindof interested to see if this turns around this year with Alex Smith.  I actually have placed the blame on the slow starts on Gruden more so than Kirk.  (I know, I have a reputation around these parts of crushing Gruden).  If Alex comes out and the team looks sharp, and the VIkings get off to a sluggish start offensively, I will be happy to remove that negative mark from Gruden and pin it squarely on Kirk.  

 

I just didn't think Gruden did enough in the off-season to get the team ready to play game 1.  Which included getting Kirk ready.

 

We'll see.  

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Even if Kirk was greedy, so what? What's wrong with trying to get as much as you can while you can? We would ALL do the exact same thing in that situation. We all want to earn as much as we can. Would you rather the owners pocket the money?

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On 3/19/2018 at 3:39 PM, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

I really could care less if he didn't want to be in DC.  I roll with and support who is on the team.  But I want the players to just be straight up honest and not blow smoke up peoples asses by saying the right things, or fluffing it up.  And while he was not over the top, he repeatedly stated that he wanted to be here and it wasn't about the money, etc.

I'm the same way. And while I respect his desire to not be in DC, and quite honestly, even understand and agree with it a bit (Bruce is a moron, Jay is average, McVay was the best of the bunch, he's gone, etc.), it doesn't really matter. I root for the Redskins, and I don't root for people who don't want to be here. 

 

So, I hope he enjoys playing against Rogers and Stafford 4 times a year, and I hope the Vikings have their clocks cleaned and miss the playoffs, and he is run out of Minnesota on a rail to be a backup forever.  That's very unlikely, because he's a good QB.  But a guy can hope.  

 

On 3/19/2018 at 3:39 PM, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

If he wanted to be here, then he would have told Bruce, I'm looking for a 3 year deal, worth $X million/yr, fully guaranteed with a no tag/trade clause and let the team have a chance to either accept his terms or counter offer.  The absolute worst thing that happens is they say "No".  Instead, he refuses to even talk about a LTD unless tagged, which we know darn good and well that if tagged a 3rd time, he would use the tag price as his starting negotiations for a LTD even though that would be a ridiculous price of 34.5 mil/yr.  He did that the past two tags, he wanted $24 million/yr as the base negotiation last year.  

This is the thing that dope Sheehan just can't grasp when he says the Redskins never made an offer that was worth countering.  They did.  Because if you want to get a deal done, EVERY offer is worth countering.  They made the offer Bruce talked about (which was stupid), and Kirk could have absolutely come back with "I want $28 million/year, fully guaranteed.  at least 2 years, can be up to 4. We're about 100% off right now."

 

Then Bruce says, "Nah, dude.  We can't do that." And the ball is in the Redskins court to counter.  

 

But by not even countering, you are saying, "I do not want to get a deal done."  

 

It's that simple.

 

Now Bruce and company should have forced Kirk's hand last year before the draft, and if he wasn't going to counter, they should have traded him for whatever they could have gotten, whether he liked it or not.  Remember the Packers traded Favre to the Jets, and he wasn't exactly thrilled with that.  Forced his way out then signed with Minny.  

 

Somebody would have taken a 1 year flier on Cousins for $24 million.  Maybe not for a 1st, but at least a second, like the Pats got for Jimmy G.

 

On 3/19/2018 at 3:39 PM, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

I don't fault him for leaving, not at all, the FO had a chance to pay him $20/mil per year three years ago and decided he wasn't worth it and failed the team and us fans.  I just don't like hearing all the fluff talk when we know it wasn't true.  He doesn't have to pitch a tantrum or throw anyone under the bus.  But it wouldn't hurt to be honest and keep it simple (and be open to contract negotiations prior to being tagged).  Something like, "I love the area, fans, team, etc.  I hope to be here in the future, but that will depend on what offer  the team makes.  And I may have the opportunity to test the market, which interests me.  So it really depends on how much is offered, which team(s) are offering, the city, coaching staff and players.  Is it a contender, is a team on the rise, etc.  So whether that is in DC or another football city, we will find out soon."

He was disingenuous, and he's been a rotten tomato in his pressers since he left.

 

Honestly, I hope he throws check-downs and red-zone INTs at an alarming rate this year, and gets booed off the field a few times.  

 

I was also a guy who wanted the 'Skins to sign him long term, and proposed before the season ended that they offer him the Stafford/Carr deal the day after the season ended and put the ball in his court.  So, it's not like I didn't like the guy.

 

But now, I wish him failure and itchy balls.  

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On 3/21/2018 at 11:01 AM, Voice_of_Reason said:

This is the thing that dope Sheehan just can't grasp when he says the Redskins never made an offer that was worth countering.  They did.  Because if you want to get a deal done, EVERY offer is worth countering.  They made the offer Bruce talked about (which was stupid), and Kirk could have absolutely come back with "I want $28 million/year, fully guaranteed.  at least 2 years, can be up to 4. We're about 100% off right now."

 

Then Bruce says, "Nah, dude.  We can't do that." And the ball is in the Redskins court to counter.  

 

But by not even countering, you are saying, "I do not want to get a deal done."  

 

It's that simple.

Except that it was reported, and Kirk's agent even said at the time, that they had already told the FO what they were looking for.  The FO's offer didn't come close to what they had told them.  It was so far off that Kirk's agent said there was no need to respond because the FO, to them, wasn't serious about working on a LTD at that point.  I believe it was @Skinsinparadisethat posted the links to the articles and interview last Spring/Summer.

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31 minutes ago, Taylor 36 said:

Except that it was reported, and Kirk's agent even said at the time, that they had already told the FO what they were looking for.  The FO's offer didn't come close to what they had told them.  It was so far off that Kirk's agent said there was no need to respond because the FO, to them, wasn't serious about working on a LTD at that point.  I believe it was @Skinsinparadisethat posted the links to the articles and interview last Spring/Summer.

Right, Kirk’s side out it out there what they wanted.  The Skins offered.  If Kirk really was serious about wanting a deal he counter-proposes with the original amount, maybe slightly less. 

 

A lot of times in negotiations, the first two offers set the boundaries, high and low.   If your fist offer is accepted you paid too much.  It’s that simple.  

 

So Bruce comes in really low, Kirk’s team comes back and says, “we want to be here, that’s not good enough.”

 

Also Kirk in his post-season appearance did say that the offer was good enough to counter but they didn’t want to counter. 

 

FACT: If Kirk wanted to be here, there would have at least been a dialog.  He wanted out.  I don’t blame him.  But he was disingenuous for a year about it.  

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

A lot of times in negotiations, the first two offers set the boundaries, high and low.   If your fist offer is accepted you paid too much.  It’s that simple.  

 

So Bruce comes in really low, Kirk’s team comes back and says, “we want to be here, that’s not good enough.”

Fans have a tendency at times to make contract negotiations between a professional football team and a franchise QB out to be just like buying a new car, or negotiating a contract with a vendor to purchase copiers at Company XYZ. 

 

I personally don't think it's that easy.  Particularly when one party has already handed over leverage to the other.  Perhaps Bruce's hardline approach to making lowball offers and browbeating agents about their clients performance will prove to be fruitful but there is nothing to suggest at this point it will be.

Edited by BatteredFanSyndrome
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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Right, Kirk’s side out it out there what they wanted.  The Skins offered.  If Kirk really was serious about wanting a deal he counter-proposes with the original amount, maybe slightly less. 

 

A lot of times in negotiations, the first two offers set the boundaries, high and low.   If your fist offer is accepted you paid too much.  It’s that simple.  

 

So Bruce comes in really low, Kirk’s team comes back and says, “we want to be here, that’s not good enough.”

 

Also Kirk in his post-season appearance did say that the offer was good enough to counter but they didn’t want to counter. 

 

FACT: If Kirk wanted to be here, there would have at least been a dialog.  He wanted out.  I don’t blame him.  But he was disingenuous for a year about it.  

FACT: The team never responded to Kirk's offer the season before.  They simply tagged him and didn't open any dialog at all after the fact.    If the team wanted him to stay, there would have been dialog, right?  Why would Kirk's agent feel that he needs to respond to a half-assed offer from them the following year that took the team five months to even put on the table once they were allowed to do so?

 

No one is going to have a dialog with someone who isn't being serious.  If you are selling a house and put it on the market for $450,000, which is the current market value for your home, and a supposed serious buyer says they really want it, but then puts in an offer for $200,000, you aren't even going to respond.  That is not negotiating; that is insulting.  If they offered in the ballpark of $400,000, then you have a grounds for negotiations. What the Redskins offered was insulting because it didn't come close to what Kirk's team offered, especially in years and guarantees, and it barely went over what he was already guaranteed when they tagged him the second time.  The only thing serious about it was that it showed how serious Bruce was about low-balling.  It surely didn't show that the team was serious about a LTD.  

Edited by Taylor 36
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On 3/21/2018 at 7:09 AM, Voice_of_Reason said:

I'm actually kindof interested to see if this turns around this year with Alex Smith.  I actually have placed the blame on the slow starts on Gruden more so than Kirk.  (I know, I have a reputation around these parts of crushing Gruden).  If Alex comes out and the team looks sharp, and the VIkings get off to a sluggish start offensively, I will be happy to remove that negative mark from Gruden and pin it squarely on Kirk.  

 

I just didn't think Gruden did enough in the off-season to get the team ready to play game 1.  Which included getting Kirk ready.

 

We'll see.  

 

That's a good point....will be interesting to see. It also may say something about how each QB prepares himself for the upcoming season but I doubt their preparation is significantly different enough to 'splain any difference.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Taylor 36 said:

FACT: The team never responded to Kirk's offer the season before.  They simply tagged him and didn't open any dialog at all after the fact.    If the team wanted him to stay, there would have been dialog, right? 

 

 

Tagging is a response and keeps the dialog going. Or it should.

Edited by Califan007
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10 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 Perhaps Bruce's hardline approach to making lowball offers and browbeating agents about their clients performance will prove to be fruitful but there is nothing to suggest at this point it will be.

 

The fact that he's the first to ever deal with a QB this way and failed miserably (3 years in a row) and looks like an idiot both during and after the process might tell us why nobody else does dumb things like the Redskins do. 

 

And he still has a job, the leading job. :rofl89:

 

 

 

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