Burgold

Redskins receiving corp is beginning to shape up

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5 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

 

No one is proposing cutting him for the sake of it. I am just no longer sure what his long term role is in our org. 

 

To answer what cutting him does? Allows players that outperformed him in camp to play.   A cheap year means nothing to me, all the kids are cheaper. Maybe just maybe by playing the kids and letting them cut their teeth will make them better players.  I hope we can agree our usual development path of sitting a WR for 2 years has failed miserably.

 

The things he provides don't strike me as make or break must have this guy:  injury insurance, vet leadership, and ability to jump up and get balls.  Is that enough from a WR1?

 

 

Who is outperforming him in camp? I haven't seen any indications that Doctson hasn't played well. Yes we hear lots about McLaurin, Sims, Harmon, and Davis but that's to be expected as they're all unknowns who have done nothing so far in the NFL. All 4 are essentially rookies...2 of them actual ones and 2 of them 2nd year players who have never caught a ball in a regular season NFL game due to injury. 

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5 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

 

No one is proposing cutting him for the sake of it. I am just no longer sure what his long term role is in our org. 

 

To answer what cutting him does? Allows players that outperformed him in camp to play.   A cheap year means nothing to me, all the kids are cheaper. Maybe just maybe by playing the kids and letting them cut their teeth will make them better players.  I hope we can agree our usual development path of sitting a WR for 2 years has failed miserably.

 

The things he provides don't strike me as make or break must have this guy:  injury insurance, vet leadership, and ability to jump up and get balls.  Is that enough from a WR1?

 

 

Skins play win-now-season every year. So, it doesn't matter how long Doctson is going to be here. It only matter how he can be used to win the season. Who has outperformed him from the rookies pool?

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, zskins said:

 

Skins play win-now-season every year. So, it doesn't matter how long Doctson is going to be here. It only matter how he can be used to win the season. Who has outperformed him from the rookies pool?

 

It's early - can I answer at the end of camp.  One also needs to know who exactly plays what spots YXZ etc (help ES) to answer that.

 

How about a flip flop. As an experienced vet in the system 4 years he should have a BIG leg up on both rookies and first year guys in camp for 10 days. Is he dominating over McLaurin Sims Davis and Quinn?   Not that I have read - but again he should CLEARLY be showing everyone in camp who the undisputed #1 if he is roster lock.  I am going to guess PRich is running at half speed to avoid injury and is not in the discussion. 

 

I will concede he is better than Harmon who is destined for the practice squad. Quick is a vet body.  Josh doesn't play teams, and doesn't play slot that I am aware of.  Despite good size has only barely added the slant to his arsenal and even that is debatable. He is kind of a 1 trick pony still, no?  He's a 5050 jumpballer. If he is not starting, he is in a battle with guys that play teams.

 

We run risk of losing a rookie with possible more upside to the PS by retaining him. A guy that may be cooked enough to help come November. And remember him getting cut was just a vision of mine to spur discussion of, just how important to our team is Josh Doctson? Riding the coattails of our GM who said we won't want him less than a year from now.  Hardly a ringing endorsement to hand him a starters spot. Why didn't Bruce give him a 5th year on the cheap? It sure seems he likes his young WRs and maybe just maybe doesn't want to lose one off the PS.

 

The way Jay spreads the ball around, I am not sold that you would even notice him gone. Especially if our collective QBs suck at fades.

 

 

 

Edited by RandyHolt
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I don't use twitter, so I'm behind on the full rundown of player performance in camp thus far. How is Harmon looking overall? And has Richardson been participating fully?

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

I think backup slot is a bit of a slop fest right now.

 

We kinda know who will be on our roster.  Of the possible 7, which guy will be our backup slot guy?

 

Has Richardson worked out of the slot?  Maybe McLaurin is being groomed?  Beatniks report in.

 

You see other teams slot guys dominate, and hopefully Quinn becomes our Wes Welker. But he's hardly been a bastion of durability.  Maybe Kidsy will be on our PS and get the callup from AAA if injury strikes.  But then who is our game day backup...

 

I was always under the impression Mclaurin had slot capability.  I'm thinking it would be him.  Then it was Rahming or Kidzy as the next slot options after that possibly battling it out for a spot on the PS.  

 

We really need a guy we can move all over the field and into the slot for matchups.  Rather than just stick the little shifty guy in there automatically.

Edited by justice98
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, justice98 said:

 

I was always under the impression Mclaurin had slot capability.  I'm thinking it would be him.  Then it was Rahming or Kidzy as the next slot options after that possibly battling it out for a spot on the PS.  

 

We really need a guy we can move all over the field and into the slot for matchups.  Rather than just stick the little shifty guy in there automatically.

 

Yep - I think McLaurin is going to be the game day backup, but I heard Jay say 2 days ago it was not McClaurin in camp, it was _______ cannot remember the name. But some of the WRs will naturally be learning the different spots for when injury strikes.

 

Look at Adam Theilan and how he dominated out of the slot.  I am not sure why the small shifty guy evolved to being the slot guy, but perhaps its because its a logical spot for them because they don't beat press outside.  I hear Theilan is being pushed outside and to not expect the same production as last year.   I have long wondered why when a teams WR1 is in a bad matchup/being shut down, why a coach doesn't move them to slot. And conversely, why a DC doesn't move his stud corner inside on a waterbug that is KILLING the defense.

 

I would have sworn I heard Jay say Cam can run slot but then heard he is being used exclusively outside in camp.

Edited by RandyHolt

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37 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Yep - I think McLaurin is going to be the game day backup, but I heard Jay say 2 days ago it was not McClaurin in camp, it was _______ cannot remember the name.

 

I posted about it earlier - the name he used was Kidsy.

Which boggled my mind, because due to the numbers game, I don't see any way Kidsy makes the 53, barring multiple injuries.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

I posted about it earlier - the name he used was Kidsy.

Which boggled my mind, because due to the numbers game, I don't see any way Kidsy makes the 53, barring multiple injuries.

 

Thanks again - Kidsy

 

I think it may make sense.... Jay has a camp depth chart. A McLaurin isn't going to be yanked from his primary optimal season role/spot a week into camp if Quinn has cramps and needs to sit out a day or 2.  McLaurin needs reps at the spot Jay needs him for week 1.   He doesn't want to overload his plate this early. Last weeks of August, maybe he will show his game day backup slot WR what he needs to know.  So in camp he has guys doing drill work where he thinks they will be long term.  Anyone can pinch hit for a few series when the season starts, or he can call plays that don't use a slot guy to close out the loss.

 

More ES theory... He can also be talking up Kidsy the same way he talks up Perine. He IS my backup slot!  He is looking good...  but there already is no spot on 53 for him and he wants to give them a deserving shout out when he can. Camp coaching 101 - Jay is not short of words.

 

 

Edited by RandyHolt
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5 hours ago, justice98 said:

 

I was always under the impression Mclaurin had slot capability.  I'm thinking it would be him.  Then it was Rahming or Kidzy as the next slot options after that possibly battling it out for a spot on the PS.  

 

We really need a guy we can move all over the field and into the slot for matchups.  Rather than just stick the little shifty guy in there automatically.

McClaurin absolutely has slot capability. He and Quinn are both 6’0 and are quick and have excellent hands. But under the current situation, I think he could be a better improvement (and I emphasize ‘could be’) at split end, or X - the position currently held by Doctson. Gruden’s July 30 presser really said a lot about Doctson’s inability to beat press coverage and that he’d no longer be the primary target but the 2nd or 3rd in the progression. That’s pretty damning and explains why a risk-adverse QB like Alex Smith would pass to him infrequently. 

 

McLaurin in camp is showing he can’t be touched at the line. Plus his track-team speed and solid hands are making my mouth water. But it’s one thing to see in individual drills as opposed to live bullets and that’s why I cant wait to see him play in these pre-season games.  

 

McLaurin actually looks like he can play any WR position, really.  I’m hoping mid-season we see McLaurin entrenched at the X. His speed should also command a safety to shadow him. That’ll leave the Y and Z as well as TE positions in more one-on-one matchups.

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Posted (edited)

@JaxJoe Solid post as per usual. And thanks for sharing what you heard about Doctson - the split end X

 

In my near annual koolaid guzzling fantasy land thinking our young WR look damn good, it occurred to me, may Doctson get cut?  Now we see JP is thinking McLaurin is closing in fast on Mr X.

 

Again, I think Bruce not taking that cheap 5th year says what you need to know about the teams feelings on him.  And now Jay breaks the ice and says he struggles getting off of press.  Tick tock tick tock...  I have been saying for 3 years now that I want him to bulk up - add to his what seems like a bit of a lanky frame.   Sure he can throw me through the uprights but if you look at the stud WRs in the NFL and they are pretty often ****ing cut. It just seems like his game never really progresses and certainly hasn't progressed to the expectations of a first. 

Edited by RandyHolt
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Doc not getting the option picked up is all the more reason for him to play with even more fire. It’s win-win for the team. He either balls out and we have a legit 1, he balls out and signs elsewhere for big money giving us a a decent comp or he crashes out justifying why we didn’t pick up his option.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

 

It's early - can I answer at the end of camp.  One also needs to know who exactly plays what spots YXZ etc (help ES) to answer that.

 

How about a flip flop. As an experienced vet in the system 4 years he should have a BIG leg up on both rookies and first year guys in camp for 10 days. Is he dominating over McLaurin Sims Davis and Quinn?   Not that I have read - but again he should CLEARLY be showing everyone in camp who the undisputed #1 if he is roster lock.  I am going to guess PRich is running at half speed to avoid injury and is not in the discussion. 

 

I will concede he is better than Harmon who is destined for the practice squad. Quick is a vet body.  Josh doesn't play teams, and doesn't play slot that I am aware of.  Despite good size has only barely added the slant to his arsenal and even that is debatable. He is kind of a 1 trick pony still, no?  He's a 5050 jumpballer. If he is not starting, he is in a battle with guys that play teams.

 

We run risk of losing a rookie with possible more upside to the PS by retaining him. A guy that may be cooked enough to help come November. And remember him getting cut was just a vision of mine to spur discussion of, just how important to our team is Josh Doctson? Riding the coattails of our GM who said we won't want him less than a year from now.  Hardly a ringing endorsement to hand him a starters spot. Why didn't Bruce give him a 5th year on the cheap? It sure seems he likes his young WRs and maybe just maybe doesn't want to lose one off the PS.

 

The way Jay spreads the ball around, I am not sold that you would even notice him gone. Especially if our collective QBs suck at fades.

 

 

 

 

 

I've heard Jay or one of the coaches mention early on that Sims is playing Z.  If i recall that's where he played last preseason.  Sims to me in camp at least looked like a potential star.  Granted camp doesn't always translate to a season. 

 

Jay mentioned using Harmon both outside and inside.  I saw that in camp.

 

McLaurin I gather can play Z or X. 

 

Weird thing is Doug mentioned in the off season  you wouldn't put a small dude like Richardson at the Z spot because they require their Z to block a lot.  Yet, Richardson played the Z spot plenty.

 

Richardson looked 100% in camp.  He looked fast.  

 

I ironically liked both McLaurin and Harmon before the draft.  I was pushing for both.   They weren't the only receivers I liked but they were high among the next tier of receivers that I dug.  I don't think either are #1 type receivers but both can IMO become solid #2 types.  Right now, we arguably don't have a traditional #1 or #2 type receiver.  One of these two guys might fix this -- maybe both?  I am always a bit wary to push receivers too hard considering the bust rate is so high and they typically don't play hot right out of the gate. 

 

As much as I liked McLaurin and still do, I think Harmon is being slept on some.  He was the dude who stayed after practice -- working with Norman, Cromartie, Haskins at different times.   He was catching everything at least when i was watching.

 

I get the skepticism about a 6th rounder.  But many saw him as a 2nd rounder before the draft.  Maybe more than any player, I was practically screaming at the TV on the third day to take Harmon.  Kyle Smith in an interview said Harmon was in conversation on draft day more than any other player and they considered him in the 4th round and thought he'd be gone once they didn't take him. Then ditto in the 5th.  He said they didn't take him then because they liked the depth better at WR in that draft versus their other positions of need.  

 

Harmon has really good hands, can block, catch contested balls, can separate (even though he doesn't have top end speed).  And apparently he has a strong work ethic.  I am not going to swear by any receiver because of the high bust rates at that position.  But i really doubt the dude will last on the practice squad, I think someone would pluck him right away. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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1 hour ago, JaxJoe said:

That’s pretty damning and explains why a risk-adverse QB like Alex Smith would pass to him infrequently. 

 

 

To be fair, Alex Smith hardly ever threw to WRs in general. Unless he has an elite guy who consistently gets lots of separation (Tyreek Hill for example) he doesn't often look their way. Doctson was hardly the first WR who's run into that issue when playing with AS.

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Doctson making some nice looking 50/50 grabs in camp but to be honest he looks really lame off the LOS to me. No burst, telegraphed moves , little separation. 

 

I could see him farmed out for a day three pick before the season starts.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

Doctson making some nice looking 50/50 grabs in camp but to be honest he looks really lame off the LOS to me. No burst, telegraphed moves , little separation. 

 

I could see him farmed out for a day three pick before the season starts.

 

If I recall (I could be misremembering) it was Cooley who said that Harmon plays the way the team wishes Doctson played like.    Harmon comes off feistier when it comes to securing 50-50 balls, might be better against press coverage and he arguably has better hands.

 

I was a fan of them taking Doctson at the time.  But his low key style and poor catch percentage rate has made me sour on him some.  I don't think he's a bust.  And I can see his career maybe awakening at some point but for now I am more jazzed about other receivers on this roster.   Right now, Docton strikes me as a decent #3 type receiver.  I don't think he's played like a #1 or even #2.   Hopefully this is the year he emerges but I wouldn't hate it if they gave the X receiver spot to someone else.

 

I was in particular blown away by what I saw from Sims in camp. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Just listened to Hoffman.  He thinks McLaurin will play Z and might have already usurped Richardson for that spot.   He thinks Harmon makes the team.  He thinks Doctson likely makes it but he's not ruling out that he doesn't.

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Posted (edited)

Wow, it seems like my Bye Josh vision is gathering steam. Or maybe the beatniks were suggesting it long before me.

 

Where do Sims and Clarence Harmon slot in? 

 

My best guess camp depth chart trends by position - please copy/paste/correct vs quote

Split End - X - Weak Side - On LOS

Doctson ⬇️

McLaurin (per JP) ⬆️

Sims? ⬆️⬆️

Harmon? ⬆️

 

Flanker - Z - Strong Side - Off LOS

Richardson ↔️

McLaurin (per Hoffman) ⬆️⬆️

Sims (per SIP/Jay 2018) ⬆️

Harmon ? ⬆️

 

Slot

Quinn ⬆️

Kidsey

 

I have to think Sims is moving up fast. Where there is smoke there is fire. Maybe Harmon too.  I heard Baltimore is set to start 2 rookie WRs. Yes they run a lot but you know what I think we will too - RB is the strength of our O. Young big WRs that can block arent a total liability. Sims made it last year out of camp and all signs point to the same this year. I assume he doesn't play teams so that means he is not a 5/6.

 

This is getting interesting.

Edited by RandyHolt
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Still not buying that they'll cut bait with 1 of their only 2 WRs who has ever done anything of note in the NFL. Now, I could see a scenario where Doctson starts out but if he doesn't play well enough then one of the other less experienced guys could surpass him on he depth chart after a while and get a chance to show their stuff. I just think that going into the season with a WR corps full to the brim of guys who have literally done zero to prove that they belong in the league (though, to be fair, through no fault of their own) is something relatively close to insanity. I could maybe see it if they knew this was a pure rebuilding year and weren't focused on "winning now"...but we know perfectly well that they aren't seeing it that way...especially Jay who is on the last year of his contract. Doctson ain't going anywhere else this year.

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I don't really get the cut Doctson movement either. I get that he hasn't lived up to being a first rounder, but he has accomplished more than every WR on the roster save for Richardson (and Doctson has done more on a per year basis) and seems to be a competent player. The projections on the younger WRs seem widely optimistic. It's not like low round picks can't work out, but to think they will all work out and all do well *this* year seems crazy. Let's recap:

McLaurin - 3rd round rookie, no NFL snaps

Harmon - 6th round rookie, no NFL snaps

Cam Sims - 2nd year UDFA, no NFL offensive snaps

Quinn - 2nd year 7th rounder, 107 NFL snaps

Davis - 3rd year 6th rounder, no NFL offensive snaps

 

So one third, two 6ths, a 7th rounder, plus one UDFA. Only one of the five has ever taken an offensive snap. Not to mention Davis, Quinn, Sims, and Richardson have all spent a majority of their NFL careers on IR. Is the team really going to the season with possibly the most unproven WR core in the history of the league? It's pretty unproven with Doctson, without him its not much of a step up from fielding all rookies

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8 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Just listened to Hoffman.  He thinks McLaurin will play Z and might have already usurped Richardson for that spot.   He thinks Harmon makes the team.  He thinks Doctson likely makes it but he's not ruling out that he doesn't.

 

I said the other day I think we dump Richardson and his contract next season.

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On 8/2/2019 at 4:54 AM, mistertim said:

 

Who is outperforming him in camp? I haven't seen any indications that Doctson hasn't played well. Yes we hear lots about McLaurin, Sims, Harmon, and Davis but that's to be expected as they're all unknowns who have done nothing so far in the NFL. All 4 are essentially rookies...2 of them actual ones and 2 of them 2nd year players who have never caught a ball in a regular season NFL game due to injury. 

Interesting fact, from all those WR you mentioned, the one that got the most praise from our coaching staff is Trey Quinn who from all account got the slot position covered.

 

That is if he can stay healthy obviously.

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11 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Just listened to Hoffman.  He thinks McLaurin will play Z and might have already usurped Richardson for that spot.   He thinks Harmon makes the team.  He thinks Doctson likely makes it but he's not ruling out that he doesn't.

I just can’t believe they would cut Josh unless 4 things are all true:

 

1. They still have questions about his motivation, and maybe health.

 

2. He is having a bad camp with bad route running and drops

 

3. There are 6 other WRs who all have higher long term ceilings AND  they think will produce more this year.

 

4.  At least 2 of the young WRs has to really stand out.  Because I think the teams inclination would be to play the guy with experience of all other things were equal.

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I don't fully buy the cut Josh movement but its not really about him.  It's about the progress Sims has made, and the drafting of McLaurin and Harmon. And specifically, what THEY have shown in camp.  I am not sure Josh can show more than he has. His book is written. Shanahan used to say it, you keep your best 53 regardless of draft position. 

 

Yes "best" includes experience far more often than not. But after graduating 2 rookies last year (sure they got injured WK1) but the point stands.... rookies rocked redskins receivers.

 

Cam Sims - UFA!?!  Quinn -7th rounder Mr Irrelevant??! are you kidding me?? c'mon you don't get long shots making it more than that.  It's a sign of talent, or change in approach from coaches.  Or, both.


With virtually the same coaches again this year, 2 more kids in "better" draft positions than the 2 kids last year..... all signs are still pointing to a continuing youth movement.

 

Jay pumping kids tires at the podium, and deflating Josh's may be all one needs to know.

Edited by RandyHolt

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9 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Slot

Quinn ⬆️

Kidsey

 

I have to think Sims is moving up fast. Where there is smoke there is fire. Maybe Harmon too.  I heard Baltimore is set to start 2 rookie WRs. Yes they run a lot but you know what I think we will too - RB is the strength of our O. Young big WRs that can block arent a total liability. Sims made it last year out of camp and all signs point to the same this year. I assume he doesn't play teams so that means he is not a 5/6.

 

This is getting interesting.

 

I think Harmon backs up slot and maybe X.   

 

31 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I just can’t believe they would cut Josh unless 4 things are all true:

 

1. They still have questions about his motivation, and maybe health.

 

2. He is having a bad camp with bad route running and drops

 

3. There are 6 other WRs who all have higher long term ceilings AND  they think will produce more this year.

 

4.  At least 2 of the young WRs has to really stand out.  Because I think the teams inclination would be to play the guy with experience of all other things were equal.

 

 

 

I think Doctson makes the team but I am gathering its becoming chic with some in the media to say that he doesn't.  Standig didn't have him making the roster.  Hoffman thinks he will make it but wouldn't be shocked if he doesn't.  Robert Davis is apparently a dark horse for the 6th spot if they carry 6 WRs.

 

29 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I don't fully buy the cut Josh movement but its not really about him.  It's about the progress Sims has made, and the drafting of McLaurin and Harmon. And specifically, what THEY have shown in camp.  I am not sure Josh can show more than he has. His book is written. Shanahan used to say it, you keep your best 53 regardless of draft position. 

 

I agree with this.  they seem to have more young possibilities than the past.  I've been a fan of Harmon and McLaurin even before they were drafted here.   My gut though is neither is a true #1 but I think they can be #2 types which would be an improvement over what we got.  Sims looked great from what I saw.  I think they got to finish upgrading receiver in the next draft which is teeming with potential #1 types.

3 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

I said the other day I think we dump Richardson and his contract next season.

 

Yeah I think you can get out of his contract then.  I liked the signing at the time.  But live and learn about signing oft injured played.  I thought he looked good in the spurts that he played but got doubts he can stay healthy.

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SIP .... not a comment, just a moment to register my appreciation of the quality of your posts.  I love reading what you offer up.  Please keep posting!

 

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