Redskins receiving corp is beginning to shape up

[Thinking Skins]

On 11/6/2018 at 8:50 AM, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

Richardson has been disappointing. I accept he likely hasn't been 100% healthy, but I think he was slightly over hyped coming in. He was our primary target picking up an 8mil p/y deal which in reality is way short of elite WR money. Chances are we've got a solid #2 receiver in him next season.

 

The FA market looks bad. My number one consideration would be Funchess from the Panthers. After that we also need to draft an explosive play-maker/athlete for the offense. 

 

 

 

I'm a general fan of our new FA approach with this exception. People wanted Richardson because of his explosiveness but we've been almost just as bad with WRs in FA and trades as the draft. I think our scouts are better at finding talent in the draft though so I did wish they would've stuck with the picks. 

 

That said, I think guys like Sims and Quinn are good rookies too have in the pipeline learning the system. One is probably fine for the year, but maybe over the next 8 games we can see if the other can lift this WR set up a bit

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[skinny21]

No telling if any of them pan out, but I like the group of Sims, Quinn and Robert Davis (though I blanked and had to look up his last name just now, lol) going forward to next year.  

 

Hopefully Smith will be comfortable with the system by then...

[Sandy Monk]

6 hours ago, skinny21 said:

No telling if any of them pan out, but I like the group of Sims, Quinn and Robert Davis (though I blanked and had to look up his last name just now, lol) going forward to next year.  

 

Hopefully Smith will be comfortable with the system by then...

 

Hope so, and I like these guys too. I think it's a large stretch to expect any of them to evolve into clear starter quality, but there is talent worth developing further, as we call them decent depth. 

 

I'm just about looking at 2018 as "a building year only", so I am wanting to see Mo Harris get a lot more opportunities to grow into a starter. Not worried or even interested in getting Crowder back at this point. I can't see them retaining him anyway, so he would just be taking snaps from someone else they may actually keep around. 

 

So, you look at a 2019 season with Mo Harris, Sims, Quinn, and Davis. Then, you look at Doctson. I don't know. Half the season left to make better decisions on what to do at WR. 

 

Paul Richardson will obviously be back, with his contract. Keep all these names (minus Crowder), and you got your 6 wideouts. 

 

Does this list of 6 wideouts match up well at all if to look around the League at every other team's WR roster by September 2019?  ?

[CounterTrey]

Is cam sims practicing again? He hurt himself in the same game as Quinn

[bird_1972]

9 hours ago, skinny21 said:

No telling if any of them pan out, but I like the group of Sims, Quinn and Robert Davis (though I blanked and had to look up his last name just now, lol) going forward to next year.  

 

Hopefully Smith will be comfortable with the system by then...

 

What was the injury that landed Robert Davis on IR? 

 

If I remember correctly, it was a particularly severe one. I just wonder what the likelihood is that he would/could bounce back from that, especially considering that he was just trying to break into the lineup.

[OVCChairman]

8 minutes ago, bird_1972 said:

 

What was the injury that landed Robert Davis on IR? 

 

If I remember correctly, it was a particularly severe one. I just wonder what the likelihood is that he would/could bounce back from that, especially considering that he was just trying to break into the lineup.

 

I thought it was an ACL...

 

just checked "multiple ligament damage in knee"

 

 

47 minutes ago, CounterTrey said:

Is cam sims practicing again? He hurt himself in the same game as Quinn

 

 

We've already activated Byron Marshall, and now Quinn off IR.  Sims can't come back this year.  

Edited November 9, 2018 by OVCChairman

[RandyHolt]

Barring a setback Crowder appears to be ready.  I hate the league killed the Probable designation to **** with fantasy profiteers. So now Bellichek has everyone questionable.... yeah the league failed in their ambitions.  Hey at least google profits from us having to dig to find out.  For me as a fan, I pay to see the big name stars. If I see a bunch of players on a team I like coming to town, are questionable, I am less likely to pay for the chance to see them.

 

Rant over.  Was Mo in the slot last week?  I want to see Jay try and ride the hot hand, and ease Crowder back in.  I feel like Crowder is likely to be just as ineffective out wide as in the slot this week, and so prefer Mo where he is most effective.

 

With this weeks lineup, who is:

X / Split End / On LOS

Z / Flanker Strong/TE Side / Off LOS

Slot

 

I wonder why more coaches don't move a WR to the slot to shake a shutdown corner and conversely, wonder why DCs don't move their shutdown corner onto the slot receiver if that is the best WR.  Theilan gets moved to the slot where he destroys teams and DCs pretend like they are helpless.

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by RandyHolt

[bird_1972]

9 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

I thought it was an ACL...

 

just checked "multiple ligament damage in knee"

 

Multiple ligament damage in knee will be extremely tough for an established starter, much less a roster bubble guy, to come back from. 
 

I am not optimistic he will compete for a slot next year.

[OVCChairman]

6 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

I wonder why more coaches don't move a WR to the slot to shake a shutdown corner and conversely, wonder why DCs don't move their shutdown corner onto the slot receiver if that is the best WR.  Theilan gets moved to the slot where he destroys teams and DCs pretend like they are helpless.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I actually think this happens more than you think.  Julio was lined up in the slot quite a bit last week if I remember correctly.   I want to say I remember seeing Odell in the slot as well.  

[RandyHolt]

23 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

I actually think this happens more than you think.  Julio was lined up in the slot quite a bit last week if I remember correctly.   I want to say I remember seeing Odell in the slot as well.  

 

But then are the DCs keeping their top corners on them, and were they effective there?  I assume most all DCs have a designated slot corner, and believe it takes away from what a DC has game planned for, if they move their #1 corner inside/mirror a stud.

 

Where are the advanced stats on WRs effectiveness in the slot, relative to their effectiveness out wide.  We are still in the stoneage of NFL stats and they are really dropping the ball as other companies try and fill the obvious void.  NFL.com would get a million? more page hits by fantasy geeks flocking in droves to find an edge for their weekly lineups. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by RandyHolt

[OVCChairman]

28 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

But then are the DCs keeping their top corners on them, and were they effective there?  I assume most all DCs have a designated slot corner, and believe it takes away from what a DC has game planned for, if they move their #1 corner inside/mirror a stud.

 

Where are the advanced stats on WRs effectiveness in the slot, relative to their effectiveness out wide.  We are still in the stoneage of NFL stats and they are really dropping the ball as other companies try and fill the obvious void.  NFL.com would get a million? more page hits by fantasy geeks flocking in droves to find an edge for their weekly lineups. 

 

 

Its a good question.  I would say that I don't think it's as easy at it may seem on the defensive side of the ball to just stick your no. 1 guy on the inside.  A LOT of different assignments.  You'd also be 100% showing your hand in coverage prior to the snap of the ball unless you were going to ask your top corner to be playing inside zone coverage.  If they stick Julio in the slot and Norman lines up... you aren't going to figure Norman will be playing zone, he's likely going to be in man... which means you have a mismatch outside because your 3rd corner is now lined up against Sanu or Ridley.   

 

To add to that, you've now asked your Outside corner to learn a large part of the playbook at a 2nd position, and you've asked your 3rd corner (whether they be your designated slot corner, or the 3rd outside corner if you elect to then keep your 'slot' guy on the sideline), a 2nd position as well.  You then have to make sure they're both on the same page in the event that there's a coverage audible coming from your safeties.  

 

If I'm a capable QB and I see Norman lined up in the slot against my no. 1 guy, I can change the play to get instant mismatches.  I would instantly motion Julio to the slot on whatever side Dunbar is lined up on, leaving Stroman or Fabian lined up 1 on 1 with either Ridley or Sanu.  IF they're in ZONE and Norman doesn't follow, then I know Julio is now looking at zone coverage in the middle and he's likely got a mismatch where an LB will be covering the area he's standing in.

Edited November 9, 2018 by OVCChairman

[skinny21]

@Sandy Monk

 

Right, that’s the big question - there might be some talent and some promise there (in terms of next year’s group), but is it a ‘good’ group?  We’ll have to see, but unless someone breaks out in a big way, I see a ceiling of ‘decent’.  A lot can change of course.  

 

What I like is that there’s variety - height, speed, shiftiness, good hands - but I think we need guys that offer a combo of those things.  I’d also add in route running and understanding/knowledge (of the scheme, of the nuances of the positions, and what a defense is trying to do).  

 

I do think that Doctson, Harris (or maybe Sims) and Quinn can probably be effective in the red zone - large catch radius and good hands from the former two, and good route running and hands from Quinn.  

 

I mentioned Parris Campbell earlier, I think a guy like that, someone who offers speed and elusiveness, is something this offense really needs (which is why missing Thompson hurts the O, IMO).  

[RandyHolt]

Looking at next year, we need speed. I am not pushing all in on Richardson being healthy and our sole speed option at wideout.  There has been a clear shift in the league towards smaller speed WRs (rule changes favor this). Assuming Crowder is in this week, where do we rank in terms of speed at wideout, compared to the rest to the league?  I think we are bottom 10, which I admit is nothing more than a best guess.

Edited November 9, 2018 by RandyHolt

[justice98]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

I wonder why more coaches don't move a WR to the slot to shake a shutdown corner and conversely, wonder why DCs don't move their shutdown corner onto the slot receiver if that is the best WR.  Theilan gets moved to the slot where he destroys teams and DCs pretend like they are helpless.

 

 

 

I think kinda think coaches are reluctant to break the paradigm of having a certain type of guy as a slot receiver or as an X.  And then certain guys just aren't great operating out of the slot. 

 

But moving a corner that plays outside to the slot and moving a slot corner to the outside now has 2 guys out of alignment.  Playing slot corner is a skill.  

[RandyHolt]

20 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

I think kinda think coaches are reluctant to break the paradigm of having a certain type of guy as a slot receiver or as an X.  And then certain guys just aren't great operating out of the slot. 

 

But moving a corner that plays outside to the slot and moving a slot corner to the outside now has 2 guys out of alignment.  Playing slot corner is a skill.  

 

Yep, good post.

 

I just wish coaches (cough maybe ours) would be more willing to move guys to the slot if the WRs collectively as a group are not performing to reasonable expects. Or, if a guy that was game planned to be featured is getting shutdown outside, try him inside for the 2nd half. Throw consistent curve balls at defenses. Some corners will just have a WRs number. Change it up!  We are not good enough to straight up beat teams via our wideouts skills used in predicable and static roles. It sure seems deception is an invaluable tool in the NFL (that doesn't get enough discussion IMO), and is a much needed tool for teams that are not top tier skill wise. 

 

I would also like to see more pick plays tried... I would swear I see it done by teams more often than ours.  The refs are usually too dumb to figure it out - work them!

Edited November 9, 2018 by RandyHolt

[OVCChairman]

6 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

I would also like to see more pick plays tried... I would swear I see it done by teams more often than ours.

 

 

We also see it a lot because of how effective it is against us.  

[bird_1972]

3 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

We also see it a lot because of how effective it is against us.  

 

Why is that? Scheme? Lack of talent? Both?

[Jumbo]

50 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Looking at next year, we need speed. I am not pushing all in on Richardson being healthy and our sole speed option at wideout.  There has been a clear shift in the league towards smaller speed WRs (rule changes favor this). Assuming Crowder is in this week, where do we rank in terms of speed at wideout, compared to the rest to the league?  I think we are bottom 10, which I admit is nothing more than a best guess.

 

I don't like "slamming" Richardson as he is a good wr and a quality person. But as I've said before, i watched him in SEA. and I saw it as a compete miss for us to think that level of player, and what we were bringing up ala the oft-troubled doctson and the semi-oft-troubled crowder, were going to even come close to offsetting what we lost back when djax and garcon left. Richardson to me was a complete "why????" as it ties up funds and really adds only a modicum of expanded capability even healthy.  I view the choice as being more an obstacle to the team progressing. Just a bad move for us. I'd be very happen if I turn out to be wrong in the long run, of course.

[OVCChairman]

1 minute ago, bird_1972 said:

 

Why is that? Scheme? Lack of talent? Both?

 

 

I think it has to do with how our DB alignment is.  As others have stated, we play a lot of soft zone allowing a free release at the line of scrimmage.  If Dunbar and Norman are jamming WRs at the line, they don't have the ability to cross and absorb our DBs.  I think you can communicate well enough to compensate as well, but the 2 dbs need to be in each others heads.  Allow the cross but change the coverage like a pick and roll in basketball.   Gotta be physical and sell the PI when they do it.  Ridley's TD was about as blatant of an offensive PI pick play as I've ever seen and it didn't get called.  

 

 

[RandyHolt]

12 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

 

I don't like "slamming" Richardson as he is a good wr and a quality person. But as I've said before, i watched him in SEA. and I saw it as a compete miss for us to think that level of player, and what we were bringing up ala the oft-troubled doctson and the semi-oft-troubled crowder, were going to even come close to offsetting what we lost back when djax and garcon left. Richardson to me was a complete "why????" as it ties up funds and really adds only a modicum of expanded capability even healthy.  I view the choice as being more an obstacle to the team progressing. Just a bad move for us. I'd be very happen if I turn out to be wrong in the long run, of course.

You are not alone. I was skeptical of him as well.  His contract almost pointed to expecting a breakout year (I admit: free agency / market prices is not my thing) which I doubted would happen. My concern was injuries. If he was expected to carry a heavier load, any injury concerns were presumed likely to be exacerbated to some degree. And sure enough he was battling multiple injuries, and has hit IR.

 

It was an stab at having a deep threat to open up the offense but even with him at full health, it clearly didn't materialize.  I don't see any reason to expect it to change next year, short of more speed added, or new play calling, new QB etc.

Edited November 9, 2018 by RandyHolt

[bird_1972]

1 minute ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I think it has to do with how our DB alignment is.  As others have stated, we play a lot of soft zone allowing a free release at the line of scrimmage.  If Dunbar and Norman are jamming WRs at the line, they don't have the ability to cross and absorb our DBs.  I think you can communicate well enough to compensate as well, but the 2 dbs need to be in each others heads.  Allow the cross but change the coverage like a pick and roll in basketball.   Gotta be physical and sell the PI when they do it.  Ridley's TD was about as blatant of an offensive PI pick play as I've ever seen and it didn't get called.  

 

If this is the case, why don't the DCoord allow our DBs to get more physical with the WRs? I think that was a big part of Norman's game down in Carolina.

 

 

[OVCChairman]

Just now, bird_1972 said:

 

If this is the case, why don't the DCoord allow our DBs to get more physical with the WRs? I think that was a big part of Norman's game down in Carolina.

 

 

 

 

Hard to say... it doesn't make sense to me

[bird_1972]

Just now, OVCChairman said:

 

 

Hard to say... it doesn't make sense to me

 

Bad coaching

[OVCChairman]

8 minutes ago, bird_1972 said:

 

Bad coaching

 

 

I don't know... I'm just a keyboard coach.. Manusky and Gray are a lot smarter than I am regarding the defensive alignment... and it's been working more often than not.  

 

The only thing I can think of is that they are expecting it to get called more.  See the picture I shared above.  That play did not get called and went from a 3rd and 9  at our 40 and turned into a TD.  Had that flag been thrown and the penalty called correctly, it's 3rd and 19 at the 50 and we have a much better chance at holding them to a punt.. going into half time down by 7 with a big time stop...   In addition to the blatant PI, if you look under my arrow, there is another Falcon player engaged with one of our guys beyond the line of scrimmage but was far enough that it likely would never get called... both are illegal blocks.  Hard to defense against that stuff.  

Edited November 9, 2018 by OVCChairman