HardcoreZorn Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 @Skinsinparadise things like self-serving, money driven, not a great leader, and any negative descriptions of his play on the field that you see posted on here does not equate to “Kirk is a bad guy.” Who here is saying Kirk Cousins is a bad dude? I know tons of people in the workplace who are self motivated and driven by greed. And they may very well be successful, just as Kirk Cousins is. But fortunately for those in the common workplace, they aren’t tasked with leading a group of 52 other grown men toward a common team goal which should be to win a championship in the most physically demanding sport there is. To win and be successful in football more than anything, everybody needs to be on the same page. You have to sacrifice personal success sometimes for team achievement. There needs to be trust, comraderie, and the belief that every man out there would lay down for the man next to him. It is the fostering of this environment more than anything that leads to sustainable success in the NFL, and that’s a really tough thing to create. This is just my opinion of course, but this is what I think makes the Patriots so successful year after year and a team like the Browns bottom dwellers. Does Kirk Cousins’ actions and most recent comments, combined with his rather lackluster play and critical mistakes during key moments scream being the guy to lead you to a Super Bowl? Not in my opinion. And if that’s the case, why make him one of the highest paid players at his position when he’s not one of the very best at his position? Saying “that’s just how contracts work and eventually someone else will be paid more,” is a nonsense answer and would get you fired eventually if you were the GM. But again, none of that equates to Kirk Cousins is a mean or bad dude. At least not in my eyes. I just don’t think his personality and the way he comes off lends itself to being a great leader of men. Which is what you need at that position. Now, some are rightfully pissed off by Kirk Cousins’ own handling of the situation which may lead to some overly negative comments directed his way out of frustration. But I really don’t see too many people trashing his character or thinking the guy is a bad dude. He’s just a good, not great quarterback, who expected to be paid far more than he was worth to somehow justify being the guy and having a platform from which to lead. I can understand why that makes some mad and leads to some harsh comments. But for the most part, I really don’t see too many people acting as if Kirk is some con man who lies through his teeth and steals from children. He just talks out both sides, seems rather fragile minded, and is financially motivated. Not the guy I want as QB1, but I’m sure he can still run one heck of a summer camp and is a cool dude. It’s just like the Bruce Allen topic. It’s totally possible to think Kirk contributed to this mess and had his hand in it without thinking Bruce is a 5 Star general manager who was all class and rainbows during negotiations. They aren’t mutually exclusive. Why is that so hard to understand?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 7 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said: @Skinsinparadise things like self-serving, money driven, not a great leader, and any negative descriptions of his play on the field that you see posted on here does not equate to “Kirk is a bad guy.” If a dude is selfish, a bad leader, and money driven that sounds a lot like Jeff George -- if that doesn't make him a bad guy, its pretty darn close to it. And yeah while I understand you get defensive when the Bruce stuff gets brought up saying you aren't in the tank for him but just feels he's unfairly maligned -- I really do think if you are ok with Bruce then Kirk's position I think would be hard to get. Why is that? The whole narrative behind the scenes from the people who covered the story is Bruce versus Kirk. I've posted all the examples before from all the different reporters. Kirk didn't like Bruce and the feeling was mutual that's mainly why he's gone. Heck probably the nicest guy to Bruce among the people who cover the team, Craig Hoffman, at the senior bowl said he asked everyone he can find about the Kirk contract what's going on -- the mantra Kirk is gone and its all about Bruce. If people want to accuse Kirk of being a politician and accuse him for being a phony at times -- I agree in one component which is when he defends the FO on occasion where he plays it down -- that diplomacy is BS if you compare it to what people have said who have talked to him about the issue. To people who spoke to him he genuinely thinks Bruce is a douche and incompetent. And I've given the things that reporters have said on that front multiple times. But yeah if I thought that was nonsense -- how can anyone have an issue with Bruce or at worse he's just all right so just suck it up and deal with it -- so that's Kirk barking up an odd tree for self serving reasons -- then I'd have a beef with him, too. 7 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said: lYou have to sacrifice personal success sometimes for team achievement. There needs to be trust, comraderie, and the belief that every man out there would lay down for the man next to him. Sheehan was having fun with this yesterday running comments said by Jay about what a great leader Kirk is. Ditto other players. After Kirk didn't get a LTD last July and Bruce kicked dirt in his face about it with the press release -- there was plenty written about that's it and he's gone next year. At that point was there a feeling that Kirk had one foot out the door -- you bet. Would that filter in the locker room? Sure. Is that on Kirk? IMO, no. Regardless, I saw Kirk just take off and sacrifice his body last year, we even got Trent miked up in the SF game when Kirk ran into a safety to get a first down saying dude what are you doing? He got beat around last year like a rag doll with that banged up O line. And it keeps coming up if you look for it about players reaching out to Kirk after he left -- it comes up in different interviews when players are actually asked about it -- the last I recall were Thompson, Crowder, Trent. All said very nice things. When they did the top 100 players, they got V. Davis, Zach Brown, Swearinger singing his praises. I posted it below if you are curious. But are you going to do it in a loud public way with all the acrimony that went down? From what Cooley once suggested when Bruce went nuts when he saw a Kirk jersey in the 980 radio booth -- he wore his anger about it on his sleeve. As Albert Breer said, Bruce wasn't going to back down and be perceived as the loser of the negotiation. I can give many other examples and I have before. 7 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said: Does Kirk Cousins’ actions and most recent comments, combined with his rather lackluster play and critical mistakes during key moments scream being the guy to lead you to a Super Bowl? Not in my opinion. Most of what am hearing is how Minny and the players there love the dude and are impressed. Their FO arguably might be top 5 in the league -- I'd presume did their homework. Zimmer who is close as a gets with Jay somehow I doubt was privately given a bad review from his buddy. They didn't only pay him but paid him big. They think he can take them to the promise land - that seems to be the mantra there. Maybe they end up wrong? Will see. But that FO isn't run by dummies. So at the very least you got a competing narrative about Kirk that we will see play out this season. 7 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said: But for the most part, I really don’t see too many people acting as if Kirk is some con man who lies through his teeth and steals from children. He just talks out both sides, seems rather fragile minded, and is financially motivated. Not the guy I want as QB1, but I’m sure he can still run one heck of a summer camp and is a cool dude. It’s just like the Bruce Allen topic. It’s totally possible to think Kirk contributed to this mess and had his hand in it without thinking Bruce is a 5 Star general manager who was all class and rainbows during negotiations. They aren’t mutually exclusive. Why is that so hard to understand?! You sarcastically mention he doesn't steal from children as if you got his back character wise comes off silly to me. Outside of having issues with the law -- being wife beater types, etc which is in the awful you will be out of football category of bad -- the idea of a bad character in sports is typically just how you describe Kirk. He's not a leader, just cares about himself not his teammates, just about money. And again, I don't mean this sarcastically but anyone who isn't bothered by Bruce I doubt could get Kirk's position. The way I took Kirk's position is this. Bruce is a douche AND he's undervaluing me AND I don't think he is competent. So why am I going to bend backwards for the guy who is insulting my play to my agent as an explanation of why I don't deserve what Osweiller got or whomever. Then you couple the odd games that happens here like I am told a new offer is coming and I get sent the exact same offer a week later -- and just oddball stuff that makes me think do I want to be here? Then the dude reads a press release publicly that tells everyone that I am the problem -- who the heck does that crap? My agent talks to front offices around the league (and used to be a FO guy himself) and tells me that are much classier FOs around the league that are mnch more competent and value me more -- so I don't have to deal with this nonsense here. There are so many narratives that lead to this dance it would make you dizzy -- national, local, everything. I've written tomes about it. And no its not because I wanted to believe it. In early 2017 I had Bruce's back on the two main things he was maligned on -- the Scot contract and why isn't Kirk signed yet. However, with additional layer after layer coming at me on both subjects -- I became solidified that I was right to back Bruce on Scot and I was wrong to have is back on Kirk. You talk about your flexibility about Bruce. But I have a hard time seeing it -- you seem to give in some that he maybe a douche but on the aggregate you circle your wagons to defend him. I think I am ironically one of the more flexible guys on Bruce. I've actually taken MAJOR macro defenses of him. And for me to have macro issues with him now where I don't like him, he really had to work to get there. I had his back when he was hired. I had his back on a number of things even the Kirk contract at times believe it or not. But I can't ignore 50 million narratives (hyperbole for effect) and just shrug it off -- eventually I pay attention and change my view when that happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWFLSkins Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 On 7/11/2018 at 5:22 PM, BatteredFanSyndrome said: @bedlamVR There is absolutely a correlation between the newfound love for Alex Smith and those that never really liked Kirk. Where is this Smith hate you speak of? If you call folks not fawning over him as if he automatically makes this team a contender or having concerns about how his age comes into play or what it took to get him here ‘hate’ then I guess you’re right. But I’m not seeing anyone hate on him. As for the first point, there are some seriously delusional fans out there for sure. I never really hated Kirk, but just didn't see the production worthy of the Cap hit and space a recent contract was going to take. That stance made me wonder about a number of things concerning his commitment and leadership. The Logos, the slogans, the social media stances. I wished him no ill will when he departed, I kept in mind Our incompetence in the FO and how that basically cost us at the min. reaping something for Kirk and for sure not losing Fuller, who I really liked. Currently though his comments recently have changed my view of him and I think my view of how maybe his teammates viewed him while he was here. Certainly his stance of stating him being treated like a fourth round pick is head shaking at best. I think he's put all the pressure on himself now. No doubt Minny a better club overall, so We shall see if Kirk can take that and improve his weaknesses, which to me are clear.... Redzone efficiency and Winning big primetime games, Home record. It could easily go sideways for either guy and in a hurry. I don't know what Smith shows up in D.C., I do know I am curiously anticipating what Jay Gruden can do with a new signal caller who is clearly more cerebral at the LOS. I will root for the guy behind Our center, just not in a homer manner. Smith had a stellar year last year, can he continue that trend? Bares watching. I love the fact He has strayed from SM and is not on twitter at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dancing Bear Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT KIRK? HE'S GONE! LET'S MOVE ON!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWFLSkins Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 14 minutes ago, Dancing Bear said: WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT KIRK? HE'S GONE! LET'S MOVE ON!!! This is the "Let's all get behind Alex Smith thread" LOL, seems off track tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 For the record though, most of the Kirk talk is initiated by Alex Smith's biggest supporters here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dancing Bear Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: For the record though, most of the Kirk talk is initiated by Alex Smith's biggest supporters here. I'll give you that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: For the record though, most of the Kirk talk is initiated by Alex Smith's biggest supporters here. Those same people wouldn't have liked the ex-scout who was on 980 today and compared the two players. I'll say this it will be a fascinating season. And IMO its a no lose season in my book. If the whole exchange Kirk-Fuller for Alex ends up looking bad -- beat reporters suggest heads will roll, starting with Bruce. My only issue with that is does Jay become collateral damage? I suspect maybe so and I wouldn't like that. But as for Bruce leaving, maybe that will bring the sea change IMO we need in the FO. And if it all works out -- much better yet -- Alex is a cool guy and easy guy to root for in spite of how I think some prop him as a tool to back Bruce or shoot down Kirk. But if you get past that nonsense, he is a really really nice guy, classy. And for me personally on Sunday I am 100% emotionally invested in the team winning -- heck I am even that way in the lost seasons where there is an upside to lose and garner a higher draft pick. I think this season should be the most memorable and high stakes one in a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWFLSkins Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Good read and surely a factor and vote of confidence in Smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillBill26 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Dancing Bear said: WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT KIRK? HE'S GONE! LET'S MOVE ON!!! It's like when rg3 left and all articles related to him we're still in my team stream news feed. It drove me nuts. I liked Kirk, I was hoping they would iron out a long term deal, but it was obvious he didn't want to be here, so don't let the door hit you on your way out. Turn the page. And I will definitely be rooting against him whenever a Vikings game is on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 19 minutes ago, SWFLSkins said: Good read and surely a factor and vote of confidence in Smith. I read it earlier, O'Connell is the guy supposedly to bring the KC element to this offense. Should be a fun watch, As for vote of confidence in Alex, I'd hope so. Can't think of any QB we've had without that type of nod - heck Shanny got knocked for doing it for Beck but in his defense what is he supposed to say? You got to believe in who you acquired in the off season otherwise what was the point. I think Alex will have a good year -- doubt a great one but hope am wrong on that, love to see a big season from him. The ex-scout who was on 980 today distinctly liked Kirk over Alex but he still was cool with Alex -- his big thing was Guice. Guice is my big thing, too. I think he will be like our Elliot. Will see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillBill26 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Another aspect of bringing Alex smith in that I feel is exaggerated is the contract extension we signed him to. Redskins are getting criticized for giving him too much money, but looking at the contract a little closer I think people would realize the skins can make this a 3 year 71 million dollar contract, and then make him a June 1st cut to spread out dead cap hits on 6.75 for both 2021 and 2022. Thats a decent amount, but by then cap will be over 200 mil, so not crippling either. Cap hits of 18, 20, and 21 in those three years. For a pro bowl caliber qb on the open market, that's not bad. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/washington-redskins/alex-smith-3337/ And i agree with the sentiment shared by many on here; Kirk did not want to be here, so the move to get smith was not them saying they want smith over Kirk, but smith over McCoy. And I like the move. Even though smith is an aging qb, we might have the roster to compete for a title come 2019 or 2020. Even if we aren't an elite team by then, with all the youth in our team, I think it's important to try and build a winning culture. I don't think McCoy would've given us that opportunity. Solid backup, but not a playoff qb. These last 3 years we have been a competitive team, hopefully we can start an upward trend towards a title, starting in 2018 with smith at the helm. And come 2020 draft, we can start looking at the replacement to take the torch from smith, similar to how the chiefs drafted mahomes to sit a year then take over for smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dancing Bear Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 1 hour ago, KillBill26 said: It's like when rg3 left and all articles related to him we're still in my team stream news feed. It drove me nuts. I liked Kirk, I was hoping they would iron out a long term deal, but it was obvious he didn't want to be here, so don't let the door hit you on your way out. Turn the page. And I will definitely be rooting against him whenever a Vikings game is on. Yeah and I remember that too. I don't want to sound ornery about the Kirk talk. But I am ready to put that all behind us. But you know the national sports media are not going to let that happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWFLSkins Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said: I read it earlier, O'Connell is the guy supposedly to bring the KC element to this offense. Should be a fun watch, As for vote of confidence in Alex, I'd hope so. Can't think of any QB we've had without that type of nod - heck Shanny got knocked for doing it for Beck but in his defense what is he supposed to say? You got to believe in who you acquired in the off season otherwise what was the point. I think Alex will have a good year -- doubt a great one but hope am wrong on that, love to see a big season from him. The ex-scout who was on 980 today distinctly liked Kirk over Alex but he still was cool with Alex -- his big thing was Guice. Guice is my big thing, too. I think he will be like our Elliot. Will see. And in fairness to Cousins, he only really had Thompson to rely on at RB. That said, I like the fact We have the guy that kept his mouth shut. I think Cuz just up the pressure on himself by saying what He has here in the last two days. Meanwhile Smith a consummate Pro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 18 minutes ago, SWFLSkins said: And in fairness to Cousins, he only really had Thompson to rely on at RB. That said, I like the fact We have the guy that kept his mouth shut. I think Cuz just up the pressure on himself by saying what He has here in the last two days. Meanwhile Smith a consummate Pro. Running with that theme, as Sheehan pointed out the other day can the Redskins FO keep their mouth shut for a change? As he said, they have to get their dig in because they don't know how to take the high road. The whole Redskins trashing Kirk to other teams -- that's not the first time we've heard that. Teams can lose a player without their teams kicking them out the door -- same when you compare Scot's departure here versus Seattle, SF. The stuff that came out about what they think about Shanny, Zorn on and on. The FO IMO comes off petty and childish where they feel like they have to get in their dig. The Kirk press release was about as good as a case in point as it gets -- Sheehan replayed Bruce reading the release the other day for kicks, just laughed through it and saying its amazing how delusional the people in the FO are that they think they can sell their spin that way. And that smart people read through that BS. I agree with him on that. As for Alex. It reminds me of what people say about when we change Presidents -- people hanker for the opposite of what just left. As for Alex, as Scot mentioned he's ironically a similar cat to Kirk in some ways. So not sure if that applies here. He is definitely a quieter version both on and off the field. But they both have a nice and typically understated way about how they go about their business aside from Twitter. When I was watching some Alex interviews on youtube months back my wife goes to me -- how can you take it -- that dude is so boring. That's one of Craig Hoffman's jokes about Alex -- saying if you thought Kirk is boring spent a few minutes with Alex and you'll see the most boring player in the league. Though, I don't put too much stock in personality aside from I like to have some guys with fire but it doesn't have to be everyone. You can have a Gary Clark and an Art Monk on the same team and thrive. As for pressure, no doubt Kirk has some. I agree with that. And according to beat guys covering the team the FO guys have also put a lot of pressure on themselves -- one saying they told Dan this is a playoff team and with a good shot to win the division. Supposedly there is a lot of arrogance and self congratulations going on behind the scenes to the degree that multiple beat guys have said if it goes south -- it will come off as a surprise to Dan based all the behind the scenes build up and in turn jobs will be lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HardcoreZorn Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 @Skinsinparadise Let me ask you this and then I'm going to drop it because this is evolving into much more Kirk than Alex talk. Have you ever stopped and thought it was less about "winning" the negotiation and more about not giving into unreasonable contract demands based off of his career to date? For me, this isn't really about siding with Bruce vs Kirk. It's about not overpaying based on his value. I just can't help but think about when Josh Norman and Desean Jackson were suddenly released and we basically locked them down and signed them to large deals. We seem to have a system in place where we place a value on a player and don't really budge from that number much. But if we value you, we're going to get it done. So is it possible that a lot of Bruce's frustration was that Kirk didn't at all seem interested in playing ball and instead took offense to the "low ball" initial offer? Is it possible that Bruce was heeding the advice of Scott and didn't agree that Kirk was worth THAT much? Maybe he thought eventually Kirk would see we had a pretty good thing going here with a good system in place, really solid coaching staff, good OL, and some solid weapons and would meet somewhere in the middle? A lot of it is conjecture, but it seems like Kirk's attitude was, "if you pay me an exorbitant amount of money I'll stay. Otherwise I'm bouncing. So pony up or I'm out of here." I don't doubt that the guy who brushes his teeth with Coors light isn't as good of a dude as the Midwestern boy who drives his grandmas van and has a reverend father. But does any of that have any bearing on what I just said above? Do you honestly believe Kirk made a good faith effort to sign with the Redskins? Like Kirk was all about it but then Bruce was so much of a douche bag that he ruined it for him? I have an extremely hard time that's how it went down, but that's kind of the picture you paint. It just seems to me there was a fundamental disagreement between the FO and Kirk's party on how much he was worth. And that Bruce's little jersey rants were because Kirk wanted the brinks truck backed up to him or he wouldn't budge. Both sides pretty clearly were rigid in their stance, so why is one an incompetent douche and the other a golden goose who got screwed over? I have such a hard time wrapping my head around that concept. I 100% agree Bruce is the main reason Kirk isn't here. I trust all the beat guys on that. But for me it's more about, "Was Bruce wrong to not cater to his contract demands?" And I don't think he was. It's really as simple as that for me. You can remove all of the "he said she said" "Bruce is a douche" nonsense from the equation for me. Because I simply agree with him that Kirk was a good quarterback. You don't pay good quarterbacks record breaking contracts. You don't pay quarterbacks with 0 career playoff wins the first 100% GTD contract in NFL history. You just don't man. Where Bruce lost me, and the reason I don't think he's the best General Manager for the job, is that he allowed emotion and stubbornness to factor into his decision to not trade him last off-season. This is never really discussed on here so I never really touch on it. But allowing that to happen was incredibly short-sighted and stupid. And potentially cost us Fuller. Inexcusable in my book. I would bet money that's where he lost Dan too. To bring this back to Alex, and this is my last post on this go after once again entering into the Bruce/Kirk black hole. But it's nice to have a guy here who was willing to sign a LTD here. A deal that will still permit us to continue to build around him. I think we secured a similar caliber quarterback and we are allocating a smaller percentage of the cap to him. I think that's a (small) silver-lining. Kirk's a good guy and I'm sure will be a fine leader for the Minnesota Vikings now that he secured his mega deal. But that clearly was not going to happen here, and the players could clearly sense he had one foot out the door. So he wasn't going to ever be that for us unless we caved and over payed him based off of the value we assigned him. Kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. And I'm just glad it's over and that we have a QB capable of going places with an adequate supporting cast. Which I sincerely believe we have. I agree this will be the most interesting season to watch play out in a good long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Monk Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I know I am new here, but just have to say, anyone paying attention to your posts lately (SIP) can see that you are completely anti-Alex/pro-Cousins. I know I know.. you throw in a word or two that seems like positive for Alex, but just stop. I don't imagine anyone is really buying it, and that's okay. Don't go the Kirk route, and honestly, I'm whatever about Kirk. He was/is a good QB that the team didn't want to pay big for. Just saying, if you fault Kirk for being disingenuous by not ripping into the Washington F/O in front of media? then don't yourself be a Kirk and disingenuous about this new QB situation. Just keep it real, please. You're doing some surreptitious talk in here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWFLSkins Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: Running with that theme, as Sheehan pointed out the other day can the Redskins FO keep their mouth shut for a change? They have gotten better, but still can't get right, lol. 10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: As for pressure, no doubt Kirk has some. I agree with that. And according to beat guys covering the team the FO guys have also put a lot of pressure on themselves -- one saying they told Dan this is a playoff team and with a good shot to win the division. Supposedly there is a lot of arrogance and self congratulations going on behind the scenes to the degree that multiple beat guys have said if it goes south -- it will come off as a surprise to Dan based all the behind the scenes build up and in turn jobs will be lost. That pressure a constant in the NFL, that said, Kirk did himself no favors this week. Smith and Kirk are similar in playing styles, and probably good guys overall, but Smith clearly has learned more about perception. There is no Logos, t-shirts, slogans....just playing ball. and honestly, as a Pro anything, I would not want my Father making statements for me. Poor Look there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MassSkinsFan Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Enough Kirk versus Alex talk - let's bring back Rex Grossman!!! Just kidding. Welcome Alex! We have confidence in you. Go out there and win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 39 minutes ago, Sandy Monk said: I know I am new here, That much is clear. While we're being judgmental, you appear to be just another homer that 'just had' to make an account so you could chime in with your less than hot takes that merely echo what 37 others did before you. SIP is one of the most valuable posters on the entire board that posts on a broad number of subjects and *gasp* is actually capable of being swayed when presented with viewpoints and facts contrary to his own beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJHJR86 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 30 minutes ago, Sandy Monk said: Just keep it real, please. You're doing some surreptitious talk in here. There is nothing surreptitious about believing that we've downgraded at the quarterback position and that the success of our offense this year will rely largely on how effective our run game is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 40 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said: @Skinsinparadise Let me ask you this and then I'm going to drop it because this is evolving into much more Kirk than Alex talk. Have you ever stopped and thought it was less about "winning" the negotiation and more about not giving into unreasonable contract demands based off of his career to date? That's a one sided description of the negotiation and if you followed it step by step the key point is the specific juncture of the negotiation. Early 2016? Early 2017? Spring 2017? Summer 2017? Different positions. Different drills. Bruce had opportunities to be proactive and counter offer. Heck even Scot said they screwed up and made mistakes in the negotiation -- including when he was there. 40 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said: Have you ever stopped and thought it was less about "winning" the negotiation and more about not giving into unreasonable contract demands based off of his career to date? For me, this isn't really about siding with Bruce vs Kirk. It's about not overpaying based on his value. I Unfortunately I've stopped and thought about it plenty. And again I wasn't against Bruce initially -- I had to hear lots and lots and lots of stuff to turn my opinion. I didn't arrive to it in some snap decision. I have probably 30 posts from early 2017 defending Bruce and saying give the dude the chance to work it out. Too much of this discussion is old school Kirk thread (my fault on that) and granted you weren't apart of a lot of that. So to avoid rehashing the whole story. I'll just throw some bullet points that from I've heard again and again and again and again from multiple people covering the story: A. Negotiation was acrimonious. This point is ignored by almost every one who slams Kirk as if its at best an incidental part of the point. People close to him said it was the main part of the plot not some minor subplot. B. The low balling was ultimately understood in 2016. But when it was doubled down on in 2017 along with acrimony AND McVay left AND they saw how Scot was kicked out the door -- it was pretty much over. C. Bruce kissed up a little in the Spring and got things more on track but the damage was done where he wanted to see what played out next season -- Kirk wasn't sold on the organization. Then the press release rekindled the acrimony The thing is put yourself in his shoes. Why bend over and compromise for someone you don't like or respect? You can then make it about money because there is no other upside for staying aside from that. Quote I 100% agree Bruce is the main reason Kirk isn't here. I trust all the beat guys on that. But for me it's more about, "Was Bruce wrong to not cater to his contract demands?" And I don't think he was. It's really as simple as that for me. You can remove all of the "he said she said" "Bruce is a douche" nonsense from the equation for me. IMIO if you follow the same beat reporters the main plot isn't about Bruce caving into Kirk. The main plot is the acrimony and the lack of respect Kirk and likely his agent has for Bruce and ultimately vice versa -- and Kirk knowing that the dude is in charge of the team and by extension will effect his future was central to whether he was excited or not to be a Redskin. 40 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said: So is it possible that a lot of Bruce's frustration was that Kirk didn't at all seem interested in playing ball and instead took offense to the "low ball" initial offer? The problem IMO with this take is its not JUST the law ball offers but the other crap with it -- telling his agent why Kirk wasn't worth it both in 2016 and 2017. The games that Grant Paulsen said they'd play with during the negotiations like we will give you a new offer next week and sending him the exact same one. Paulsen said there were a bunch of stuff that made him and his agent pause about the competence and behavior. And ditto watching how Bruce handled things with others including Scot's departure. 40 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said: Where Bruce lost me, and the reason I don't think he's the best General Manager for the job, is that he allowed emotion and stubbornness to factor into his decision to not trade him last off-season. This is never really discussed on here so I never really touch on it. But allowing that to happen was incredibly short-sighted and stupid. And potentially cost us Fuller. Inexcusable in my book. I would bet money that's where he lost Dan too. The more I listen to the beat guys (if their sources are good) the more I think Bruce isn't here for that much longer. I got no issue with people in that front office and I like many of them, Unfortunately, the Team President looms large in the mix so I can't just ignore him. And much of what I've heard about (including even from people who like him like Cooley) how he negotiated the contract gives me a bad vibe about his competence and personality. And none of that is relevant to hey he's just trying to get a good deal for the Redskins. I think all of us understand in negotiating -- you don't just cave in. But I don't think its some random coincidence that agents voted Bruce the least trustworthy GM in the league. 40 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said: To bring this back to Alex, and this is my last post on this go after once again entering into the Bruce/Kirk black hole. But it's nice to have a guy here who was willing to sign a LTD here. A deal that will still permit us to continue to build around him. I think we secured a similar caliber quarterback and we are allocating a smaller percentage of the cap to him. I think that's a (small) silver-lining. Kirk's a good guy and I'm sure will be a fine leader for the Minnesota Vikings now that he secured his mega deal. But that clearly was not going to happen here, and the players could clearly sense he had one foot out the door. So he wasn't going to ever be that for us unless we caved and over payed him based off of the value we assigned him. Kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. And I'm just glad it's over and that we have a QB capable of going places with an adequate supporting cast. Which I sincerely believe we have. I agree this will be the most interesting season to watch play out in a good long time. Sheehan described it well I think (though I disagree with part of his point) the Redskins made the problem with Kirk -- its on them. And they will likely end up regretting it long term because Kirk is likely just going to get better and is already better than Alex now. But as for trying to fix the problem that they made for themselves -- Alex is as good as they could have done. I agree with the spirit of that point but I'd rather they'd have gone after a QB in the draft then rely on a 34 year for our third try at that game. And its not that I don't think Alex could be good long term -- I just really don't know. It could work. It might not work. I hope it does -- I truly do even if it saves Bruce's job -- because again it sounds like if Chris Russell is right then Bruce has been losing some behind the scenes power this off season so he might not be long for here. I am flying with my kids to see the Arizona game -- we are all jacked -- nothing would please me more than Alex killing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWFLSkins Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 40 minutes ago, Sandy Monk said: I know I am new here, but just have to say, anyone paying attention to your posts lately (SIP) can see that you are completely anti-Alex/pro-Cousins. I know I know.. you throw in a word or two that seems like positive for Alex, but just stop. I don't imagine anyone is really buying it, and that's okay. Don't go the Kirk route, and honestly, I'm whatever about Kirk. He was/is a good QB that the team didn't want to pay big for. Just saying, if you fault Kirk for being disingenuous by not ripping into the Washington F/O in front of media? then don't yourself be a Kirk and disingenuous about this new QB situation. Just keep it real, please. You're doing some surreptitious talk in here. So He can't have an opinion different than yours? Well of course He can, that's what extremeskins is, extremely held opinions discussed in the proper way is why this board exists. This is not the old AOL or CBS sports boards where trolling is cheap and the norm,,,lol. I don't hold the same opinions as SIP, but I certainly appreciate His views and his decorum in holding a conversation. That said I think Alex is an upgrade, I could be wrong, hope I am not. I think SIP is correct that the FO is still stupid to a degree, tho I hope Doug Williams is indeed the facilitator now on the personnel side. I can't say it is true without enough time passing, but one can hope. I personally thought Cousins was a good QB, just not worth the beans he was seeking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillBill26 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 1 hour ago, SWFLSkins said: And in fairness to Cousins, he only really had Thompson to rely on at RB. That said, I like the fact We have the guy that kept his mouth shut. I think Cuz just up the pressure on himself by saying what He has here in the last two days. Meanwhile Smith a consummate Pro. Agreed, and we all know cousins is a slow starter. He was throwing ground balls and air mail for September these past two seasons. But now with that contract and high expectations, there will be storm clouds overhead if he does that again. And now that I think of it, as much as I want to root against him, i guess we have to root for Kirk to stay healthy and productive so we get our 3rd round comp pick. We might lose it if he gets hurt, right? Ok, now I'm really done talking about Kirk. Turn the page starting NOW haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 4 hours ago, Sandy Monk said: I know I am new here, but just have to say, anyone paying attention to your posts lately (SIP) can see that you are completely anti-Alex/pro-Cousins. I know I know.. you throw in a word or two that seems like positive for Alex, but just stop. I don't imagine anyone is really buying it, and that's okay. Don't go the Kirk route, and honestly, I'm whatever about Kirk. He was/is a good QB that the team didn't want to pay big for. Just saying, if you fault Kirk for being disingenuous by not ripping into the Washington F/O in front of media? then don't yourself be a Kirk and disingenuous about this new QB situation. Just keep it real, please. You're doing some surreptitious talk in here. Keep it real. Why am I supposed to give a rats behind about what you are buying or not? I am not trying to earn people's approval by hiding my views. I don't think anyone here is. This isn't high school. Believe whatever you want. That's up to you. I don't care. I am not masking squat. We post stuff in lots of different threads. And people who like me or don't like me typically won't accuse me of being bashful about landing hard on an opinion. If anything they'd say I come on too strong and over the top at times. But I'll let it go since you are new and don't know my posting history. As for the specific topic you bring up -- I've made these points previously bluntly and I'll do it here for you. A. Kirk > Alex. But not by much. B. Kirk hasn't hit his potential yet, Alex I think has. C. Alex is a good QB. D. Kirk is a great guy. Alex is a great guy. E. I think Alex will be good for two years, I wonder after that because of his age, F. I think Bruce is a douche and incompetent. G. In part because of F, I totally sided with Kirk on the contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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