Let's All Get Behind Alex Smith! Or Not!! (M.E.T.) NO kirk talk---that goes in ATN forum

[TheGreek1973]

18 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

The point I've been trying to make... thank you.  Sprinkle is 2 steps slower than Reed /  Davis.  Either one of them are on that route and it's an easy TD.  Floyd also dropped the hail mary to end the half.  He wasn't great by any means but it's not like he's out there throwing to The Posse.  

 

 

Who said anything about ignoring the fact that KC has better playmakers than we do?  I think anyone on here would agree with that... I don't understand why that doesn't further support the idea that Alex is not as bad as a lot of people are claiming because he doesn't have the supporting cast.  That's not on him, that's on the front office.   A lot of us would agree that they should have done more to get better playmakers on the outside.  If we had Hunt, Hill,  Kelce... how do you think our offense would look?  In fact, put those 3 guys on 25 other teams and they instantly make those teams better.  

You guys can't be serious.  its a roll out play, and Sprinkle is going to the corner with him.  Totally missed him, and it has nothing to do with speed.  NOTHING.  make all the excuses you want, so far Smith has been below average, especially when you consider his experience.

[OVCChairman]

4 minutes ago, TheGreek1973 said:

You guys can't be serious.  its a roll out play, and Sprinkle is going to the corner with him.  Totally missed him, and it has nothing to do with speed.  NOTHING.  make all the excuses you want, so far Smith has been below average, especially when you consider his experience.

 

 

I never said that Smith hasn't be below expectation or below average.  I full well agree that he's been below where he needs to be.  He hasn't been good enough.  We're trying to say that he hasn't peaked with this team either.  We haven't seen the best of what we're going to get from him.  That it's not time to PULL him in favor of Colt McCoy.   My point was that we havent reached him ceiling.  With time will come chemistry...will come timing... will come the ability to be be more comfortable in a new offensive scheme.  

[HardcoreZorn]

7 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I never said that Smith hasn't be below expectation or below average.  I full well agree that he's been below where he needs to be.  He hasn't been good enough.  We're trying to say that he hasn't peaked with this team either.  We haven't seen the best of what we're going to get from him.  That it's not time to PULL him in favor of Colt McCoy.   My point was that we havent reached him ceiling.  With time will come chemistry...will come timing... will come the ability to be be more comfortable in a new offensive scheme.  

It's this. I don't see a single person on here acting like Alex is where he needs to be and is willing us to victory all by himself. But I don't think he's been quite as bad as some people think, and it's foolish to dismiss progress and improvement 6 games into a new system. I also wonder how "not turning the ball over" is viewed through a negative and somewhat dismissive lens, when it in fact is a huge net positive for all three units of the team. How many times was Dallas backed up inside their own 20 on Sunday? Even drives that stall around mid field and don't look "good" can help with the field position battle, which is critical to winning games. But yeah, I've seen some flashes here or there to not completely hit the panic button. I think better is yet to come, just thankful we have a D and run game picking up the slack in the meantime.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

So how much time are you giving a 34 year old QB?  He said it took five years of familiarity with Reid’s system to get his best season as a pro.

 

Are you really not concerned that Smith and Jay’s system aren’t a match made in heaven?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

18 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

The point I've been trying to make... thank you.  Sprinkle is 2 steps slower than Reed /  Davis.  Either one of them are on that route and it's an easy TD.  Floyd also dropped the hail mary to end the half.  He wasn't great by any means but it's not like he's out there throwing to The Posse.  

 

 

I don't think the TD miss has ANYTHING to do with Sprinkle vs. Reed vs. Davis. When you're talking about a timing route or something deep downfield, I completely buy into timing and chemistry. The throw he missed to Sprinkle is a 7th grade QB play...you see a guy, evaluate his speed and route, and throw it to him. That's just an instinctual play that Smith missed on. It was also odd to miss so badly since he didn't NEED to lead him away from a defender. If Sprinkle was blanketed and he made that throw then you chalk it up to being safe with the ball and making sure only your guy can catch it. That's not what we saw. 

 

I am much more accepting of the Doctson misses downfield than that red zone miss to Sprinkle. 

[Morneblade]

20 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I never said that Smith hasn't be below expectation or below average.  I full well agree that he's been below where he needs to be.  He hasn't been good enough.  We're trying to say that he hasn't peaked with this team either.  We haven't seen the best of what we're going to get from him.  That it's not time to PULL him in favor of Colt McCoy.   My point was that we havent reached him ceiling.  With time will come chemistry...will come timing... will come the ability to be be more comfortable in a new offensive scheme.  

 

Actually, we've likely already have. First game of the season. 24-30, 255 and 2 TD's. This, over Smiths career is a very good game, especially without having Hill like he did in KC. This is about as good as it gets with Smith.

 

7 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

It's this. I don't see a single person on here acting like Alex is where he needs to be and is willing us to victory all by himself. But I don't think he's been quite as bad as some people think, and it's foolish to dismiss progress and improvement 6 games into a new system. I also wonder how "not turning the ball over" is viewed through a negative and somewhat dismissive lens, when it in fact is a huge net positive for all three units of the team. How many times was Dallas backed up inside their own 20 on Sunday? Even drives that stall around mid field and don't look "good" can help with the field position battle, which is critical to winning games. But yeah, I've seen some flashes here or there to not completely hit the panic button. I think better is yet to come, just thankful we have a D and run game picking up the slack in the meantime.

 

He's actually gotten progressively worse. He best game was the first game of the season, a couple of ok ones, and then he's been bad in the last 3. As as mentioned above, we've already seen the best of AS. That was game one. High completion %, high in yards (for him), 2 td's (high for him) no int's (par for the course, he's good here) 2 fumbles (we recovered them, so we forget about them) but this is about as good as it's going to get. And it's gotten progressively worse.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

14 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

So how much time are you giving a 34 year old QB?  He said it took five years of familiarity with Reid’s system to get his best season as a pro.

 

Are you really not concerned that Smith and Jay’s system aren’t a match made in heaven?

 

Well there are a couple things here...

 

1) He's here and not exactly cut-able for a couple years...so I'm not sure what you're suggesting with time (benching him for Colt? drafting a replacement this off-season?)

2) Given THIS team, we don't need a match made in heaven...it's OK for them not to get what Cousins got out of this offense if we can run the ball and play better D than we did while Cousins was here. What we do need is for Smith to make the plays that are there for him. Being safe and conservative is part of what you get, but it makes it essential that he hit open guys when we actually cuts it loose and they win on their routes. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Well there are a couple things here...

 

1) He's here and not exactly cut-able for a couple years...so I'm not sure what you're suggesting with time (benching him for Colt? drafting a replacement this off-season?)

2) Given THIS team, we don't need a match made in heaven...it's OK for them not to get what Cousins got out of this offense if we can run the ball and play better D than we did while Cousins was here. What we do need is for Smith to make the plays that are there for him. Being safe and conservative is part of what you get, but it makes it essential that he hit open guys when we actually cuts it loose and they win on their routes. 

 I understand the contract situation, my question is separate from that.

 

Meaning as fans, how much rope are you extending before you call it no bueno?

 

Secondly, are you really not concerned at all that this relationship isn’t ever going to pay dividends?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

7 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

Actually, we've likely already have. First game of the season. 24-30, 255 and 2 TD's. This, over Smiths career is a very good game, especially without having Hill like he did in KC. This is about as good as it gets with Smith.

 

 

I would agree. I would also say that if we could get that type of Smith game more often than not with THIS team as it's currently constructed and playing, we'd be a top-3 team in the conference. 

[HardcoreZorn]

4 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

He's actually gotten progressively worse. He best game was the first game of the season, a couple of ok ones, and then he's been bad in the last 3. As as mentioned above, we've already seen the best of AS. That was game one. High completion %, high in yards (for him), 2 td's (high for him) no int's (par for the course, he's good here) 2 fumbles (we recovered them, so we forget about them) but this is about as good as it's going to get. And it's gotten progressively worse.

It seems you've already made up your mind, far before the season even started so I'm not sure anything will get you to back down off of that stance. But I just can't agree with this is about as good as it's going to get. We're 6 games in, things can change. Will they? IDK. But you are talking in absolutes and even if he's 34, a new system with a revolving door of average at best receivers currently doesn't necessarily lend itself to ripping up the stat sheet.

[goskins10]

30 minutes ago, TheGreek1973 said:

You guys can't be serious.  its a roll out play, and Sprinkle is going to the corner with him.  Totally missed him, and it has nothing to do with speed.  NOTHING.  make all the excuses you want, so far Smith has been below average, especially when you consider his experience.

 

No one is making excuses. He has played bad in a few games. And yes, he missed h Sprinkle TD. That's all 100% on him. Sorry guys, Sprinkle being slower is no reason to miss that throw. 

 

What people are saying is that it's early. Have just a slight bit of patience. No way any QB comes in and has complete rapport with his WRs and full command of the offense. 

 

The rest is not directly specifically at you. It's more a general launching point. 

 

And I know what Bruce, Jay and mini me danny said. We all knew that was political bull****. Stop acting like anyone really believed it. Bruce an dan ****ed up with Kirk Cousins. They made a trade to cover it up and tried to sell it as an upgrade. And maybe in their minds they convinced themselves of that. But very few of the fans bought into that. And even less were on here touting Kirk as the next coming. 

 

Give the man some time. Even with his play the team is 4-2. You can crow about who we played all you want - but the fact is we are 4-2 and in first placed - somewhere we will still be after next week no matter what happens.

 

BTW: It's time to give the coaches some love there. Even with him playing like that and the injuries, especially on offense, the team is still 4-2. Granted they should have been prepared for the injuries since most of them are to people they knew had a good chance of being injured. But it looks like they are making it work. 

 

 

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 I understand the contract situation, my question is separate from that.

 

Meaning as fans, how much rope are you extending before you call it no bueno?

 

Secondly, are you really not concerned at all that this relationship isn’t ever going to pay dividends?

 

Well, I think if you're simply talking about "when is it fair for fans to complain" then the answer is "whenever" at this point. But that doesn't interest me much because half our fans call our own "Dan Schneider" and don't understand anything. I am more interested in realistic solutions or options the team might have...that's a more engaging discussion for me. Otherwise it's the same as saying "we won't win until Snyder sells the team" or something. OK, great...now what? 

 

Of course I'm concerned, but I think Smith at QB could work out just fine if he figures out a way (whether through comfort in the scheme, chemistry with teammates, or re-focusing on the basics) to make 3-4 more plays per game. 

[goskins10]

7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 I understand the contract situation, my question is separate from that.

 

Meaning as fans, how much rope are you extending before you call it no bueno?

 

Secondly, are you really not concerned at all that this relationship isn’t ever going to pay dividends?

 

Answers:

1. I am willing to give him until the team is not in contention for a PO birth. And then after that I will give him the first half of next season to give him a second off season with Jay and the the system and for the team to get some better WRs. Also we should get Guice back and ideally they get another Oline. 

 

2. No. Either it does and they do well or they don't and we get new leadership. So no, I am not concerned at all. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

8 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

No one is making excuses. He has played bad in a few games. And yes, he missed h Sprinkle TD. That's all 100% on him. Sorry guys, Sprinkle being slower is no reason to miss that throw. 

 

 

 

Well, that's not true. @OVCChairman devoted some of a post to the fact that Sprinkle is slower than the starters and that may have contributed to the miss in the end zone. That's why I addressed it. Maybe YOU aren't making excuses, but some are. 

[goskins10]

2 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Well, that's not true. @OVCChairman devoted some of a post to the fact that Sprinkle is slower than the starters and that may have contributed to the miss in the end zone. That's why I addressed it. Maybe YOU aren't making excuses, but some are. 

 

I was talking in general and not to you anyway. And even then, it was one play - which BTW I addressed in the very same message saying it had nothing to do with the speed. I have read most of what they have said and @OVCChairman is not saying Alex is playing well and it's all others fault. 

 

 

 

[OVCChairman]

41 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Well, I think if you're simply talking about "when is it fair for fans to complain" then the answer is "whenever" at this point. But that doesn't interest me much because half our fans call our own "Dan Schneider" and don't understand anything. I am more interested in realistic solutions or options the team might have...that's a more engaging discussion for me. Otherwise it's the same as saying "we won't win until Snyder sells the team" or something. OK, great...now what? 

 

Of course I'm concerned, but I think Smith at QB could work out just fine if he figures out a way (whether through comfort in the scheme, chemistry with teammates, or re-focusing on the basics) to make 3-4 more plays per game. 

 

 

100%

 

I'm not guaranteeing some sort of light switch going off and Smith turning into Drew Brees.  I'm not asking him to do that.  What I am looking at is he missed 2 TD this week.  I want to give him time to continue working and have a chance to execute those 2 plays correctly.  That in itself has us looking at this game completely differently.  I don't need or expect some miraculous uptick in down field throws resulting in video game numbers.  Those 2 TDs change the entire dynamic of the feeling regarding that game.   

 

 

33 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Well, that's not true. @OVCChairman devoted some of a post to the fact that Sprinkle is slower than the starters and that may have contributed to the miss in the end zone. That's why I addressed it. Maybe YOU aren't making excuses, but some are. 

 

 

Yes and I do feel that if it had been Reed / Smith, or hell, even Kelce, it would have connected, because he's been working with them, throwing with them more, and is more inclined to have timing with them... that's just my opinion.  To the point @goskins10 was making, it is a throw that SHOULD have been made.  I'm not tryin got make excuses, as much as i'm trying to rationalize why one of the, statistically, more accurate Qbs in the NFL missed a throw that... like was mentioned... was a basic throw that a 7th grader likely should make.  I get it... hes he SHOULD have made the throw, but looking at Alex Smith, he didnt just forget how to play football, or throw on a boot, or hit an open receiver.   

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Great post @OVCChairman

 

I don't see a scenario where Smith doesn't at least get this year plus all of next year to work out. We won't have an NFL-ready heir apparent out of the 2019 draft unless we have already won our last game or trade a lot to move up (which I wouldn't). 

[Morneblade]

35 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I would agree. I would also say that if we could get that type of Smith game more often than not with THIS team as it's currently constructed and playing, we'd be a top-3 team in the conference. 

 

Likely, but that is not his average, or floor. That's his ceiling, especially in this offense. So it's likely we won't see it that much.

 

35 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

It seems you've already made up your mind, far before the season even started so I'm not sure anything will get you to back down off of that stance. But I just can't agree with this is about as good as it's going to get. We're 6 games in, things can change. Will they? IDK. But you are talking in absolutes and even if he's 34, a new system with a revolving door of average at best receivers currently doesn't necessarily lend itself to ripping up the stat sheet.

 

Because I've actually looked at his 14 year career. He is what he is. So yes, I've made up my mind. This isn't a case of "oh, he's a 2nd year guy in a new system". Or a 5th year guy going into his 3rd system. This is a 14 year vet, that everyone has a ton of tape on him, and we know what he is. I knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that 2017 was not going to be replicated.

 

And, it hasn't.

 

And, it won't be.

 

Why? Well, for starters, we don't have Tyreek Hill. Second, Smith is not a rhythm passer, and that is what Gruden wants. That is his system. Will he try and incorperate some of what Smith does? Yeah, sure. But he's also gonna want to run his offense. And Smith simply isn't good at it. There is a very REAL reason why 2 teams have moved on from him. He's not a real good QB. He's limited. In a league that is gear to taking shots downfield, through the passing game....................Smith is afraid to. He simply holds teams back.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 minute ago, Morneblade said:

 

Likely, but that is not his average, or floor. That's his ceiling, especially in this offense. So it's likely we won't see it that much.

 

 

Well, I don't think that's his ceiling. I think that's a B+ game for him, but ceiling implies that he will not top 250/2TDs all season which seems far-fetched. I think it's the type of game we should expect from him when things are going well around him. That's why I mentioned that it should be a game we get from him "more often than not" this season. I'd expect a couple better games (at least statistically) and a few worse games (which we've seen examples of). 

[OVCChairman]

8 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Great post @OVCChairman

 

I don't see a scenario where Smith doesn't at least get this year plus all of next year to work out. We won't have an NFL-ready heir apparent out of the 2019 draft unless we have already won our last game or trade a lot to move up (which I wouldn't). 

 

 

If we draft ANYONE in the upcoming draft... this board will be melting by week 5 if we're seeing similar things on the field, i'm convinced of it.  We're 4-2 right now having already beat GB, Carolina, and Dallas... 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 minute ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

If we draft ANYONE in the upcoming draft... this board will be melting by week 5 if we're seeing similar things on the field, i'm convinced of it.  We're 4-2 right now having already beat GB, Carolina, and Dallas... 

 

I'm stressing patience too, but we do have to separate our record from how our QB is playing. He deserves SOME credit, for sure. But he is also PART of the reason that two games that were very much in-hand over the past two weeks came down to a red zone stop (Carolina) and a missed FG (Dallas). A couple typical Redskin breaks and we are 2-4 and this place is in full meltdown mode. 

[Morneblade]

Just now, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Well, I don't think that's his ceiling. I think that's a B+ game for him, but ceiling implies that he will not top 250/2TDs all season which seems far-fetched. I think it's the type of game we should expect from him when things are going well around him. That's why I mentioned that it should be a game we get from him "more often than not" this season. I'd expect a couple better games (at least statistically) and a few worse games (which we've seen examples of). 

 

On this team, I don't seem him doing much better. I do not see a 350 yard, 3 td game out of him. And if it does happen, it's going to be someone taking a screen or dump off 60 yards for a TD. Or a couple of those. It will not be AS throwing darts 30 yards downfield for TD's

 

The only thing I see improving is his completion % from what it has been over the last couple games. That should go up. He was 53% in the last game, he's usually around 65%, or a little higher. But as far as yards, and scores?

 

No, that's really not going any better IMO.

 

In the last 5 years at KC, the threw 23, 18, 20, 15 and 26 TD's He's not getting close to 26 on this team, More like 15 with the weapons we don't have, which is what he's on pace for.

He averaged 220, 217, 218, 233, and 269 over the last 5 years in KC. Once again, throw out the 269, that ain't happening again. Right now he's on pace for 230, which is right in line with what he did before 17'.

 

This is Alex Smith.

[OVCChairman]

1 minute ago, Morneblade said:

 

On this team, I don't seem him doing much better. I do not see a 350 yard, 3 td game out of him. And if it does happen, it's going to be someone taking a screen or dump off 60 yards for a TD. Or a couple of those. It will not be AS throwing darts 30 yards downfield for TD's

 

The only thing I see improving is his completion % from what it has been over the last couple games. That should go up. He was 53% in the last game, he's usually around 65%, or a little higher. But as far as yards, and scores?

 

No, that's really not going any better IMO.

 

In the last 5 years at KC, the threw 23, 18, 20, 15 and 26 TD's He's not getting close to 26 on this team, More like 15 with the weapons we don't have, which is what he's on pace for.

He averaged 220, 217, 218, 233, and 269 over the last 5 years in KC. Once again, throw out the 269, that ain't happening again. Right now he's on pace for 230, which is right in line with what he did before 17'.

 

This is Alex Smith.

 

 

In fairness.. you mentioned he's usually around 65%.. if he completes 2 more passes... the one to Doctson and the one to Sprinkle... he doesn't even get to 65% and we're looking at a walk away win from a division rival.. Nobody is asking him to go 350 / 3 with slinging the ball downfield.  All we're saying, is that he's better than he's been playing, so we feel the panic button should not be pushed.... not yet.  Maybe 250 / 2 is a 'good' game for him.  Well he's had a lot more 'good' games in his career than not 'good'.  Given how this team is built, 250 / 2 / <2 turnovers will get it done a lot more often then not.  This team is not built to gunsling.  We dont have the weapons, so wanting us to take this proverbial cover off the offense and let er' rip wont work.  We can't do that without someone else on the other end of the play to catch the ball.  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

4 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

On this team, I don't seem him doing much better. I do not see a 350 yard, 3 td game out of him. And if it does happen, it's going to be someone taking a screen or dump off 60 yards for a TD. Or a couple of those. It will not be AS throwing darts 30 yards downfield for TD's

 

The only thing I see improving is his completion % from what it has been over the last couple games. That should go up. He was 53% in the last game, he's usually around 65%, or a little higher. But as far as yards, and scores?

 

No, that's really not going any better IMO.

 

In the last 5 years at KC, the threw 23, 18, 20, 15 and 26 TD's He's not getting close to 26 on this team, More like 15 with the weapons we don't have, which is what he's on pace for.

He averaged 220, 217, 218, 233, and 269 over the last 5 years in KC. Once again, throw out the 269, that ain't happening again. Right now he's on pace for 230, which is right in line with what he did before 17'.

 

This is Alex Smith.

 

Makes sense...I guess I'm just saying that if you and I agree that his average is 230 yards per game then it's a little low to feel that his ceiling is 250. But I get your point. You don't mean he can never exceed those numbers, rather his "ceiling sustainable play" is in that range maybe? 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

15 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

If we draft ANYONE in the upcoming draft... this board will be melting by week 5 if we're seeing similar things on the field, i'm convinced of it.  We're 4-2 right now having already beat GB, Carolina, and Dallas... 

No doubt.  But most with sense would be happier to be 4-2 with a rookie running a lean game plan focused on running the ball.  Not because the rookie would be guaranteed to get better but we won’t really know.  With Alex, we’ve seen him for a decade and a half so there’s not much mystery.