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Let's All Get Behind Alex Smith! Or Not!! (M.E.T.) NO kirk talk---that goes in ATN forum

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12 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

If we knew in February that Josh Rosen would fall to 10 then hell yeah, I wouldn't trade for Smith.  Rosen was looked at as the best QB in the draft and I don't think anyone expected him to fall that far and if so it wasn't until we got closer to the draft.

 

Me either but who knew that then? No one. Some people thought he would go #1

 

12 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

 

Also, I think realistically you don't trade up to 10 pre-draft to grab the last guy standing, you trade up into the top 5 so you can get a player you know or at least think you know will be a very good QB and will be there when you pick, trading to 10 puts you in a position where you may not get a QB if the draft didn't shake out the way it did, too much risk.

 

Yup and the cost to move from 13 to top five is massive. By going with Alex Smith they gave up no picks but one slot corner who sure looked nice to a team in cap hell for contract reasons. I would rather have kept the picks

 

 

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2 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

Not sure why this is questioned. The Chiefs knew in October they were trading Alex Smith. Him saying that is coach speak for they were going younger next year. Everyone knew this was happening and was no secret. The reason was related to cap space. Alex knew it and took time to tutor Patrick. They all knew this was happening

 

I can say exactly the same where I don't see how you can question what I said which was an actual quote.  You say its the reverse.  So I am not arguing that point further -- i'll leave it at a stalemate.   It's not central to the plot of my point anyway.  So I don't want to spin my wheels on what you or I think Andy really means.  Unless, we personally discuss it with him.

 

5 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

Do you know the percentage of first round QBs bust out of the league? 40% over the past twenty five years.

 

I've posted more about that subject and in detail than likely anyone on the various Kirk threads.  I am very aware of the odds.  I always hated the idea of letting Kirk go and then go fishing in the draft.  But I actually hated the idea of trading draft capital for a veteran QB even more.

 

10 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

Why are you convinced the ceiling for Alex is 8-8?

 

I don't buy the premise of your point.  So we'd be spinning our wheels on that one.  I believe a QB is part of a symphony -- the key part of the symphony but part of an ensemble.  My ceiling for Alex Smith isn't 8-8.   The way I look at football Alex Smith isn't = Redskins.  Our W-L score isn't = Alex Smith. 

 

As I stated here my feelings about Alex Smith and the Redskins season has very little to do with Alex Smith.  I know what he's capable of and i like what he's capable of but I am not in the QB is Superman business where its all him.   

 

And I didn't cap off the Redskins at 8-8 by the way if you read my posts more carefully.   Alex Smith's season IMO is much about Jordan Reed and Derrius Guice.  And I explained why already. 

 

15 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

pointed out the 50 wins the past five season stat earlier. Why don’t you give some credit to Alex for that

 

Not sure where this is coming from?   Am I hammering Alex Smith where I am talking about how he doesn't deserve credit for what went down with the Chiefs?  Go find me that post, then.  

 

If this is a roundabout way to bring the point again that the QB is ALL about the W-L record.  I think that's wildly off so lets agree to disagree.

 

To your credit you were on the Alex Smith bandwagon before the trade and we debated some of these various points before the trade.  And I get the enthusiasm that comes when you pick a player and it happens.  Happened for me with Paul Richardson and Derrius Guice.  So I get extra enthusiastic, too about those players.  

 

But I think you are seeing ghosts where you see people assailing Alex Smith when they really aren't.  I can argue I am actually being much easier on the dude than you.  If you are going to stick the Redskins W-L record all on him. That's tough.  And, I'll bet right now, I'll be defending the dude on the Alex Smith thread when people are unfairly blaming him for losses.  The dude deserves a running game and a healthy Jordan Reed.  If both of that happens, I think the Redskins have a good year.  If it doesn't they IMO will have a mediocre one.  

 

Alex Smith and ditto any QB deserves a good supporting cast.  Simple as that.

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4 hours ago, bobandweave said:

 

Me either but who knew that then? No one. Some people thought he would go #1

 

 

Yup and the cost to move from 13 to top five is massive. By going with Alex Smith they gave up no picks but one slot corner who sure looked nice to a team in cap hell for contract reasons. I would rather have kept the picks

 

 

 

I get the other point of view though but I also get why the team is scared to death after blowing it on the RG3 trade and not getting any picks for Kirk, our margin for error is zero right now.

 

If we did decide to use the draft to address QB, personally I would rather go all in and give up the picks to get the guy we really wanted.

 

There's nothing about Alex Smith that excites me but he's here so let's see what happens.

 

Edited by JSSkinz
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I still can’t believe we spent $44 million on franchise tags in an unprecedented two years straight for a guy we drafted, then traded away a 3rd round pick and one of our best young defensive players for another QB we gave $71 million guaranteed to over three years. 

 

That’s $115 million in cap space, a 3rd rounder and Fuller over a period of 5 years spent on the QB position. And neither guy is considered the elite of the elite, which even then the above spending would be considered on the high end. 

 

Just absolutely woeful resource management by the FO any way you slice it... so much wasted there that could’ve benefited everyone involved from Gruden on down. Just a tiny bit more of what they get paid for in foresight was all that was needed. :( 

 

The fact that Jay said he was okay with drafting a QB as well makes it sting that much more. Sometimes it feels like he’s the only dude that consistently gets it in the building. 

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On 5/21/2018 at 5:18 PM, bobandweave said:

 

Okay that’s fine but let’s get real. Hankins? Cromartie? Why are you mentioning these guys? Let’s stick to the guys in this 

 

Edit

 

 

It's very hard to take you serious when you make posts like this. The entire thing is basically - I am right because I said so. And then you make stuff up about my position.

 

You made the extreme conclusion that if they go a different way it would ruin the team for years to come. I showed a few possible ways that it would not happen that way. You call them make believe because it doesn't fit your narrative. Then you make statements like - "tell me the future" crap. That is just not necessary.

 

I get your passion around this. That's great. I am glad you are happy with the trade and excited that Alex is a Redskin. And even though you completely ignore it time and time again I like Alex Smith. Was OK with the trade from the beginning just thought there were better options. Still do.

 

I will leave it at that. Time to move on to something more productive.

 

 

Edited by goskins10
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1 hour ago, thesubmittedone said:

The fact that Jay said he was okay with drafting a QB as well makes it sting that much more. Sometimes it feels like he’s the only dude that consistently gets it in the building. 

See, I think Jay's ability to develop QBs goes woefully unnoticed around here.  He gets zero credit for developing Kirk.  Zero.  I was hoping we would make a play for Rosen but knew that wasn't an option.  In short, I'm not sure why everyone is seemingly scared to get a young stud in here for Jay to work with.  I think he would surprise us.  Maybe we'll field a good enough team to find out in a few years. :cheers:

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5 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

I get the other point of view though but I also get why the team is scared to death after blowing it on the RG3 trade and not getting any picks for Kirk, our margin for error is zero right now.

 

If we did decide to use the draft to address QB, personally I would rather go all in and give up the picks to get the guy we really wanted.

 

There's nothing about Alex Smith that excites me but he's here so let's see what happens.

 

well, Alex traditionally hasn't been very exciting...but...he's getting more exciting as he matures...could be we picked him just as he's ripening? We shall see...

 

/and that could be very entertaining to watch unfold on many levels

 

 

Edited by Stefanskins
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39 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

See, I think Jay's ability to develop QBs goes woefully unnoticed around here.  Maybe we'll field a good enough team to find out in a few years. :cheers:

 

it had better be this year...for all involved...and they know this...Jay is still going to develop Alex...and every one, including Alex, knows that we are taking a QB next year ... and how good our team performs will directly impact what round we take him...which will make Alex an apt pupil...

 

200w.webp

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7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I can say exactly the same where I don't see how you can question what I said which was an actual quote.  You say its the reverse.  So I am not arguing that point further -- i'll leave it at a stalemate.   It's not central to the plot of my point anyway.  So I don't want to spin my wheels on what you or I think Andy really means.  Unless, we personally discuss it with him.

 

 

I've posted more about that subject and in detail than likely anyone on the various Kirk threads.  I am very aware of the odds.  I always hated the idea of letting Kirk go and then go fishing in the draft.  But I actually hated the idea of trading draft capital for a veteran QB even more.

 

 

I don't buy the premise of your point.  So we'd be spinning our wheels on that one.  I believe a QB is part of a symphony -- the key part of the symphony but part of an ensemble.  My ceiling for Alex Smith isn't 8-8.   The way I look at football Alex Smith isn't = Redskins.  Our W-L score isn't = Alex Smith. 

 

As I stated here my feelings about Alex Smith and the Redskins season has very little to do with Alex Smith.  I know what he's capable of and i like what he's capable of but I am not in the QB is Superman business where its all him.   

 

And I didn't cap off the Redskins at 8-8 by the way if you read my posts more carefully.   Alex Smith's season IMO is much about Jordan Reed and Derrius Guice.  And I explained why already. 

 

 

Not sure where this is coming from?   Am I hammering Alex Smith where I am talking about how he doesn't deserve credit for what went down with the Chiefs?  Go find me that post, then.  

 

If this is a roundabout way to bring the point again that the QB is ALL about the W-L record.  I think that's wildly off so lets agree to disagree.

 

To your credit you were on the Alex Smith bandwagon before the trade and we debated some of these various points before the trade.  And I get the enthusiasm that comes when you pick a player and it happens.  Happened for me with Paul Richardson and Derrius Guice.  So I get extra enthusiastic, too about those players.  

 

But I think you are seeing ghosts where you see people assailing Alex Smith when they really aren't.  I can argue I am actually being much easier on the dude than you.  If you are going to stick the Redskins W-L record all on him. That's tough.  And, I'll bet right now, I'll be defending the dude on the Alex Smith thread when people are unfairly blaming him for losses.  The dude deserves a running game and a healthy Jordan Reed.  If both of that happens, I think the Redskins have a good year.  If it doesn't they IMO will have a mediocre one.  

 

Alex Smith and ditto any QB deserves a good supporting cast.  Simple as that.

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3 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

I still can’t believe we spent $44 million on franchise tags in an unprecedented two years straight for a guy we drafted, then traded away a 3rd round pick and one of our best young defensive players for another QB we gave $71 million guaranteed to over three years. 

 

That’s $115 million in cap space, a 3rd rounder and Fuller over a period of 5 years spent on the QB position. And neither guy is considered the elite of the elite, which even then the above spending would be considered on the high end. 

 

Just absolutely woeful resource management by the FO any way you slice it... so much wasted there that could’ve benefited everyone involved from Gruden on down. Just a tiny bit more of what they get paid for in foresight was all that was needed. :( 

 

The fact that Jay said he was okay with drafting a QB as well makes it sting that much more. Sometimes it feels like he’s the only dude that consistently gets it in the building. 

landscape-1473350299-ezgifcom-gif-maker.

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18 hours ago, bobandweave said:

 

Maybe you can refresh my memory on this but can you name another player who stated after leaving his former team being so bold as to say he had lied for the past two years about wanting to stay on his former team like Kirk did? I don’t recall that ever happening.

 

The idea that Kirk was some class act here is nonsense and made up bs. Those words prove he had no class. Even saying I agree with your point if he had to say what he did the past two seasons there was no reason for him to be saying that when he’s on his new team. It’s classless and immature. 

 

Most players leave a team and thank the former team for giving him a chance. Players moving around the league happens all the time. But yet this piece of crap had to take the opportunity to bury this team the first chance he got for his own ego. That does not happen with other guys. That takes a special kind of stupid to do.

 

Which is why no one that really knew Kirk Cousins personally thanked him and wished him well in the future unlike how guys like Alex Smith are respected. Kirk didn’t earn the respect of those closest to him and that speaks of his character. Us fans looking in only see what we can see. When those closest to the player obviously don’t like him there are real problems we don’t see. 

 

You appear to still have your feelings hurt because our team F'ed up and mishandled the situation from the start, Kirk used his good play to leverage himself into a great situation that he had earned, and he took full advantage of it.  From Kirk's perspective he was always the red headed step brother of the Chosen One RGIII. When he got his chance and lit it up the team said "thanks but we don't believe in you, do it again". Then he did it again and the team said "thanks but we still don't believe in you, do it again". By that time Kirk understood his position as one of the dozen best QBs in the entire world so he did not sign their offer, he took the franchise tag and bet on himself.  Again. And won.  After all this he didn't owe the team that never really believed in him a damned thing, yet he said all the right things.

 

If you really believe Kirk is the first athlete to "bury" his previous team, and his quotes are nothing even close to "burying" his former team, you would be wrong.  His comments were just not that bad, and to be honest with you pretty accurate IMO.

Edited by Darrell Green Fan
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9 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

I still can’t believe we spent $44 million on franchise tags in an unprecedented two years straight for a guy we drafted, then traded away a 3rd round pick and one of our best young defensive players for another QB we gave $71 million guaranteed to over three years. 

 

That’s $115 million in cap space, a 3rd rounder and Fuller over a period of 5 years spent on the QB position. And neither guy is considered the elite of the elite, which even then the above spending would be considered on the high end. 

 

Just absolutely woeful resource management by the FO any way you slice it... so much wasted there that could’ve benefited everyone involved from Gruden on down. Just a tiny bit more of what they get paid for in foresight was all that was needed. :( 

 

The fact that Jay said he was okay with drafting a QB as well makes it sting that much more. Sometimes it feels like he’s the only dude that consistently gets it in the building. 

 

I think this is a bit disingenuous. The $44 million was a sunk cost. Should they have signed Kirk long term early in 2015? Yes. Would anyone have felt comfortable handing out 20+ million at that point? no. So I think the wait and see was the correct approach at the time. Then kirk goes and blows up the 2nd half of 2015 and it became obvious that he should have been resigned earlier. So they make him a lowball offer and he decides he wants to hit FA. Anyone with eyeballs could see he wasn't gonna sign a LTD here and his ultimate goal was FA after 2 years of basically refusing to negotiate at all.

So with that being the case, if you're the FO you're between a rock and a hard place. Do you go back and torpedo the next 2 drafts AGAIN by giving up massive amounts and trading up for an "elite" qb and then go 4-12 with that rookie when the fans are on the verge of revolt, or pay the FT cost and hope you can work out a deal, or at least get to the playoffs and hope for a few lucky bounces/draws?

 

So given the situation, I think they played it ok. My only gripe is they could have possibly traded Kirk for some picks, but even that is not a guaranteed option because nobody is gonna give up a bunch for a qb with no LTD in place.. and if he had wanted to play hardball about reaching FA, no team would have traded for him.

 

Which brings us to Smith and 2018. Again, rock and a hard place. If you feel your roster is good, but just lacking depth do you give up a boatload of picks to move up and sabotage building depth, or make the next best choice? I think Smith was a good option. A bit expensive but he's a solid vet qb who can get the job done and does not melt down under pressure or primetime games like Kirk. People like to moan about Fuller and it sucks losing him, but let's not forget he absolutely sucked in 2016.. so one awful year and one really good one, plus a 3rd for a solid starting QB. For every 3rd round Moses or Fuller you draft, there are also the Hankersons and Joneses from that same round. So I'm ok with the price paid, it's just the way it is. Which gives us a good chance to win for the next few years while continuing to build the roster and improve the depth.

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5 hours ago, crabbypatty said:

A bit expensive but he's a solid vet qb who can get the job done and does not melt down under pressure or primetime games like Kirk.

 

Did you miss the Chiefs v. Titans game in the playoffs last year?

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12 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Did you miss the Chiefs v. Titans game in the playoffs last year?

No.. I remember the score being 21-3 at the half though.

Them being unable to score anything in the second half was disappointing, but not Smith's fault they scored 19 unanswered (well in a roundabout sort of way, since the offense didn't put them away)

Smith was 24 of 33 for 264 with 2 td's and no int's..

 

Did you miss the Giants games the last 2 years? Or the Eagles game to start the season? Both cowgirls games?

Those were wilt games led by our own KC.. I liked the guy but his duds when it counted really sucked. I hope he continues that tradition in Minny.

 

Edited by crabbypatty
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10 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Did you miss the Chiefs v. Titans game in the playoffs last year?

Skins fans watch Skins games and highlight shows. Many just don't realize what we let walk.

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13 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Did you miss the Chiefs v. Titans game in the playoffs last year?

At this point, I’d love to be talking about how poorly our QB played in a playoff game. 

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1 minute ago, JaxJoe said:

At this point, I’d love to be talking about how poorly our QB played in a playoff game. 

We did that just a couple years ago. I don't recall it being fun. One more game fun I suppose.

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8 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

Skins fans watch Skins games and highlight shows. Many just don't realize what we let walk.

 

really? That's just lazy on your part.

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6 hours ago, crabbypatty said:

I think this is a bit disingenuous. The $44 million was a sunk cost. Should they have signed Kirk long term early in 2015? Yes. Would anyone have felt comfortable handing out 20+ million at that point? no. So I think the wait and see was the correct approach at the time. Then kirk goes and blows up the 2nd half of 2015 and it became obvious that he should have been resigned earlier. So they make him a lowball offer and he decides he wants to hit FA. Anyone with eyeballs could see he wasn't gonna sign a LTD here and his ultimate goal was FA after 2 years of basically refusing to negotiate at all.

So with that being the case, if you're the FO you're between a rock and a hard place. Do you go back and torpedo the next 2 drafts AGAIN by giving up massive amounts and trading up for an "elite" qb and then go 4-12 with that rookie when the fans are on the verge of revolt, or pay the FT cost and hope you can work out a deal, or at least get to the playoffs and hope for a few lucky bounces/draws?

 

Disingenuous? Give me a break. :rolleyes: 

 

First off, the only one being disingenuous is you with that “20+ million” number in “early 2015”. There’s absolutely NOTHING out there suggesting that was ever remotely the demand or the market for him. He and his agent did what most players do in that situation, just play out the season and see what happens. 

 

After that, there were many of us at the time saying that allowing him to play on the franchise tag was foolish and that there was no way he’d regress so badly that signing him long term wasn’t the better idea. This required very little in the way of foresight. There’s a reason teams don’t tag QBs. It’s too expensive and the position is similar to that of a coach’s, where stability is important in terms of his ability to lead and you don’t want him playing as a lame duck. 

 

It’s been detailed a thousand times over by myself and many others. I might as well just copy and paste what I’ve said in the past on the matter and it’d dismantle every single argument you’ve made here. Nothing disingenuous about it, the sunk cost happened BECAUSE of a lack of foresight that is required by any FO. Most executives lose their jobs over much less significant matters, yet Bruce is still here after this ridiculous waste of resources.

 

It’s disgusting, and if you want to justify it that’s fine, but don’t attack others who see it for what it is. Why don’t you compare it to the rest of the league in terms of resource management and get back to me? 

 

 Oh, let me guess, “unique situation, can’t blame them”! Like they had no hand in creating that situation, just randomly occurred.  :ols: 

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36 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Did you miss the Chiefs v. Titans game in the playoffs last year?

 

Did you?  Alex was incredible during the 1st half of the game.

 

 

 

 

Towards the end of the 1st half, Kelce was placed in concussion protocol and never returned to the game.  The back-up TE, Orson Charles, took over as the TE1, and he was terrible.  He had drops in key moments that would have extended drives, and the Chiefs offense struggled to move the ball downfield.  Hill had some key drops as well.  The Chiefs defense was also terrible, allowing the Titans to control the clock for 19:04 minutes in the 2nd half vs. the Chiefs having the ball for only 10:56 minutes, with the Titans rushing for 202 yards on the day.  Anyone putting that loss on Smith's shoulders needs to go back and watch the tape. 

 

The dude had a 116.2 passer rating, c'mon now. :rofl89:

Edited by HTTRDynasty
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1 minute ago, crabbypatty said:

 

really? That's just lazy on your part.

I did just get off a 72 hour shift. Kind of tired.

But yeah, really. Some see our QB fail to play well (meltdown) and don't seem to realize that 15 other QBs in the league do the same 4-6 times a season and another 15 QBs in the league do so 8-10 times a season. Then there is Brady and Rogers. Perfect example is Alex. (and this isn't Alex bashing) Alex gets all the criticisms from Chiefs fans that Kirk got here and then some. Our fans look at Alex's highlights on ESPN and see his better team won more games and went to the playoffs and think he doesn't do what our guy does. Yes he does.  Peyton choked for eons before he got enough of a defense to allow him to win the big one. The list is endless.

I'm going back to the couch and enjoy my slothdom.

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:rolleyes:

 

6 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

Disingenuous? Give me a break. :rolleyes: 

 

First off, the only one being disingenuous is you with that “20+ million” number in “early 2015”. There’s absolutely NOTHING out there suggesting that was ever remotely the demand or the market for him. He and his agent did what most players do in that situation, just play out the season and see what happens. 

 

IIRC they offered him $16 million a year after the season. That obviously wasn't enough as he didn't even bother to respond to it, so yes, north of $20 million with more guaranteed money would probably have been what was required to extend him after the 2015 season. There were plenty of arguments here about it, because he only had 8 "good" games as a starter and there was plenty of debate as to whether big multi year extension was warranted based on that half season.

6 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

After that, there were many of us at the time saying that allowing him to play on the franchise tag was foolish and that there was no way he’d regress so badly that signing him long term wasn’t the better idea. This required very little in the way of foresight. There’s a reason teams don’t tag QBs. It’s too expensive and the position is similar to that of a coach’s, where stability is important in terms of his ability to lead and you don’t want him playing as a lame duck. 

 

Really? you knew all this for a fact way back then?? Do you forget the dismal start to the 2015 season he had? People were begging for him to be benched. Prior to his 3 touchdown tampa breakout game he had thrown 6td's and 8 int's through the first 7 weeks, and the team was averaging 16 ppg and appeared stuck in neutral. After his hot 2nd half of the season, at the time who was to say which kirk was the real one long term? IIRC, after the 2015 season and the 16 million offer he had already made up his mind to play on the Tag, so unless some giant outlandish offer came in, he was gonna take the guaranteed money.. there was no impetus for him not to take the tag money, as he would have that guaranteed amount plus a ltd the next offseason if he so chose.

6 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

It’s been detailed a thousand times over by myself and many others. I might as well just copy and paste what I’ve said in the past on the matter and it’d dismantle every single argument you’ve made here. Nothing disingenuous about it, the sunk cost happened BECAUSE of a lack of foresight that is required by any FO. Most executives lose their jobs over much less significant matters, yet Bruce is still here after this ridiculous waste of resources.

 

It’s disgusting, and if you want to justify it that’s fine, but don’t attack others who see it for what it is. Why don’t you compare it to the rest of the league in terms of resource management and get back to me? 

 

 Oh, let me guess, “unique situation, can’t blame them”! Like they had no

hand in creating that situation, just randomly occurred.  :ols: 

 

Again, nobody said it was some random situation, your words not mine. I said that given the circumstances I can see that they were between a rock and a hard place. There are plenty of things I can blame Bruce on, and I'm not saying the FO handled things perfectly, but I can see how and why things went the way they did. So yes I stand by my "disingenuous" claim of 20+ million, because 16 million/yr apparently didn't even warrant a response from Kirk's camp. In fact there were articles that came out after 2015 where Kirk stated he was perfectly happy playing on the FT and would revisit the situation next year, meaning his mind was made up pretty early in the process.. he was going to "bet on himself"

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3 minutes ago, crabbypatty said:

 

:rolleyes:

 

 

IIRC they offered him $16 million a year after the season. That obviously wasn't enough as he didn't even bother to respond to it, so yes, north of $20 million with more guaranteed money would probably have been what was required to extend him after the 2015 season.

 

But even then, everyone knew it was going to take more than $16 mil...he was heading into FA...and that was going to cost us $19+ million...so the only one being disingenuous is whoever authorized that obvious low ball offer...

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