Let's All Get Behind Alex Smith! Or Not!! (M.E.T.) NO kirk talk---that goes in ATN forum

[HTTRDynasty]

Can anyone name a specific skill that Kirk is better at than Alex?  I'm not talking about putting up better bulk stats over his career, I'm talking about a skill, like "more accurate" or "better at post-snap reads" or "better situational awareness".  Is there anything?  I'm struggling to come up with a list.

[Cliffmark1]

23 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Can anyone name a specific skill that Kirk is better at than Alex?  I'm not talking about putting up better bulk stats over his career, I'm talking about a skill, like "more accurate" or "better at post-snap reads" or "better situational awareness".  Is there anything?  I'm struggling to come up with a list.

Ok so let me start off with the fact that I wish the Redskins played at their 80s-early 90s level.  It's sad to me what has happened to this great team, and I wish Alex great success. 

 

Objectively I think many people could agree:

 

Kirk vs Alex:

Kirk is a better passer, in almost every single aspect of the game.  He can make all the throws and he has a good balance of decision making of going deep and moving the chains, some people have knocked Alex for those two things.  He can't make all of the throws and he is at times too conservative. 

 

Alex is likely better at running and elusiveness, however, Kirk has better pocket awareness and overall a good mind for when he should take a hit and step into a throw and when he should throw it away, he is better than Alex at this who some have critiqued he is too quick to give up on plays and run. 

 

Kirk is statistically more effective than Alex under pressure. 

 

Kirk throws more and when he does he maintains similar accuracy to Alex.  Some may argue that Kirk is more accurate across the gamut of his throws.  He has been relied on to run a debatably vanilla offense that has had passing as it's only offensive weapon and statistically poor defenses.  Kirk throws more touchdowns, avg of seven more per year and has never missed a game.  

 

Alex has more complete teams around him with a very innovative offense and smart front office and training structure around him.  With this in mind, and many Redskins being injured the last few years statistically Kirk has never missed a game due to injury.  So using advanced statistical analysis isolating QB performance I think Kirk's statistics would be quite a bit better than Alex but we will see next year, "that's why they play the game". 

[zoony]

28 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Can anyone name a specific skill that Kirk is better at than Alex?  I'm not talking about putting up better bulk stats over his career, I'm talking about a skill, like "more accurate" or "better at post-snap reads" or "better situational awareness".  Is there anything?  I'm struggling to come up with a list.

 

Alex is a much better juggler.  He also would win easily in ping pong

[HTTRDynasty]

1 minute ago, Cliffmark1 said:

Ok so let me start off with the fact that I wish the Redskins played at their 80s-early 90s level.  It's sad to me what has happened to this great team, and I wish Alex great success. 

 

Objectively I think many people could agree:

 

Kirk vs Alex:

Kirk is a better passer, in almost every single aspect of the game.  He can make all the throws and he has a good balance of decision making of going deep and moving the chains, some people have knocked Alex for those two things.  He can't make all of the throws and he is at times too conservative. 

 

Alex is likely better at running and elusiveness, however, Kirk has better pocket awareness and overall a good mind for when he should take a hit and step into a throw and when he should throw it away, he is better than Alex at this who some have critiqued he is too quick to give up on plays and run. 

 

Kirk throws more and when he does he maintains similar accuracy to Alex.  Some may argue that Kirk is more accurate across the gamut of his throws.  He has been relied on to run a debatably vanilla offense that has had passing as it's only offensive weapon and statistically poor defenses.  Kirk throws more touchdowns, avg of seven more per year and has never missed a game.  

 

Alex has more complete teams around him with a very innovative offense and smart front office and training structure around him.  With this in mind, and many Redskins being injured the last few years statistically Kirk has never missed a game due to injury.  So using advanced statistical analysis isolating QB performance I think Kirk's statistics would be quite a bit better than Alex but we will see next year, "that's why they play the game". 

 

Thanks for the response. 

 

I don't understand why you think Alex can't make "all the throws".  What throws can't he make?  Rarely is a QB ever drafted #1 overall who can't make all the throws.

 

I agree that Alex is too conservative at times.  He was a little better with that last year, but it's definitely a fair criticism.

 

I don't agree that Kirk has better pocket awareness than Alex.  I've seen Alex make the subtle moves in the pocket to extend the play at a pretty high rate.  Kirk has been inconsistent with this over the years IMO.

 

Alex was a more accurate passer across the gamut of his throws last year.  Not sure who has been more accurate over their careers.  I'll try to go out and hunt for a career-wide adjusted completion percentage stat.  But just watching the games, their accuracy seems comparable, and I can't confidently say that one is more accurate than the other.

 

The rest of what you mentioned isn't really a "skill".

3 minutes ago, zoony said:

 

Alex is a much better juggler.  He also would win easily in ping pong

 

Lies.  Kirk is a juggling savant.

[mistertim]

11 minutes ago, Cliffmark1 said:

Ok so let me start off with the fact that I wish the Redskins played at their 80s-early 90s level.  It's sad to me what has happened to this great team, and I wish Alex great success. 

 

Objectively I think many people could agree:

 

Kirk vs Alex:

Kirk is a better passer, in almost every single aspect of the game.  He can make all the throws and he has a good balance of decision making of going deep and moving the chains, some people have knocked Alex for those two things.  He can't make all of the throws and he is at times too conservative. 

 

Alex is likely better at running and elusiveness, however, Kirk has better pocket awareness and overall a good mind for when he should take a hit and step into a throw and when he should throw it away, he is better than Alex at this who some have critiqued he is too quick to give up on plays and run. 

 

Kirk is statistically more effective than Alex under pressure. 

 

Kirk throws more and when he does he maintains similar accuracy to Alex.  Some may argue that Kirk is more accurate across the gamut of his throws.  He has been relied on to run a debatably vanilla offense that has had passing as it's only offensive weapon and statistically poor defenses.  Kirk throws more touchdowns, avg of seven more per year and has never missed a game.  

 

Alex has more complete teams around him with a very innovative offense and smart front office and training structure around him.  With this in mind, and many Redskins being injured the last few years statistically Kirk has never missed a game due to injury.  So using advanced statistical analysis isolating QB performance I think Kirk's statistics would be quite a bit better than Alex but we will see next year, "that's why they play the game". 

 

I don't think the better passer thing is really much different. Could probably be a wash. Yeah, Alex has always been a pretty conservative passer but he's also been consistently accurate. Deep ball accuracy is a bit of a wash as well IMO because in 2016 when Kirk had D Jax he threw plenty of deep balls and his deep ball completion percentage was good, and in 2016 when Alex didn't have Hill he didn't throw deep much and his deep completion percentage sucked. But the tables were basically reversed in 2017. Kirk lost his deep threat in D Jax and his deep game suffered badly...not many deep passes and poor accuracy but by contrast when Smith gained his deep threat in Hill he threw deep much more and was very accurate.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Can anyone name a specific skill that Kirk is better at than Alex?  I'm not talking about putting up better bulk stats over his career, I'm talking about a skill, like "more accurate" or "better at post-snap reads" or "better situational awareness".  Is there anything?  I'm struggling to come up with a list.

 

I am no QB guru and i like both Alex Smith and Kirk so no dog in that fight. So, I'll quote some of the people like Cooley who looked at the film.

 

Kirk according to Cooley is better at hanging in there with his reads.  Alex according to Cooley bails often if his 2nd read isn't open whereas Kirk will hang in the pocket and go through his progressions and connect with his 3rd and 4th read -- Cooley meant that as a complement to Kirk and doesn't love Alex bailing so quick on his reads.  

 

Andy Benoit (and some other film geek guy and his name is escaping me right now) basically say that Kirk is a ballsier player who is much more willing to throw into tight windows and by extension Smith will drive Jay crazy with his conservativsm. 

 

Some KC guys who covered Alex (including this guy whose last name is Spector) say that Alex's conservative check down tendencies will drive Redskins fans nuts.  Stuff like on 3rd and 10 -- and Alex will throw a three yard hitch -- hence football outsiders came up with the "Alex" stat for checkdowns.

 

I can also say plenty of nice things about Alex and personally I think Kirk and him are close as players even though they are different stylistically. 

 

But since you asked, there are some people who have pointed to the Alex Smith acquistion as a downgrade.  Some as an upgrade.  Some as somewhere in between.    I'd average it all as a wash.    I know Bucky Brooks really came hard pro Alex Smith but Bucky is the same guy who a year ago thought Colt McCoy was as good as Kirk -- Bucky isn't a Kirk guy.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Andy Benoit (and some other film geek guy and his name is escaping me right now) basically say that Kirk is a ballsier player who is much more willing to throw into tight windows and by extension Smith will drive Jay crazy with his conservativsm.

2

 

I think Smith was ranked 3rd best in the league last year in tight window throws.

[Veryoldschool]

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Can anyone name a specific skill that Kirk is better at than Alex?  I'm not talking about putting up better bulk stats over his career, I'm talking about a skill, like "more accurate" or "better at post-snap reads" or "better situational awareness".  Is there anything?  I'm struggling to come up with a list.

 

Negotiations come to mind.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Found it lol...Smith was ranked 4th, not 3rd:

 

 

4

Alex Smith

QB

Chiefs

 

 

Completion pct.: 42.2 (fifth). Passer rating: 67.6 (sixth). Adjusted YPA: 5.27 (10th).

Score: 21.

Smith turned in a career year in what turned out to be his final season with the Chiefs. He was remarkably efficient when throwing to confined spaces in 2017, ranking among the best quarterbacks in completion percentage and passer rating. Smith was still as cautious as ever, throwing just 12.7 percent of his overall passes to a receiver with less than a yard of separation, the second-lowest rate among all quarterbacks. Yet, when he took those chances, he made them count. His 2017 output was a far cry from his expected results, however, as the veteran ranked 25th with a 42.4 tight-window passer rating back in 2016. The Washington Redskins have to hope they get a player closer to the 2017 version after agreeing in principle to a trade that will bring them Smith's services at the start of the new league year.

 

 

 

 

[HTTRDynasty]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am no QB guru and i like both Alex Smith and Kirk so no dog in that fight. So, I'll quote some of the people like Cooley who looked at the film.

 

Kirk according to Cooley is better at hanging in there with his reads.  Alex according to Cooley bails often if his 2nd read isn't open whereas Kirk will hang in the pocket and go through his progressions and connect with his 3rd and 4th read -- Cooley meant that as a complement to Kirk and doesn't love Alex bailing so quick on his reads.  

 

Andy Benoit (and some other film geek guy and his name is escaping me right now) basically say that Kirk is a ballsier player who is much more willing to throw into tight windows and by extension Smith will drive Jay crazy with his conservativsm. 

 

Some KC guys who covered Alex (including this guy whose last name is Spector) say that Alex's conservative check down tendencies will drive Redskins fans nuts.  Stuff like on 3rd and 10 -- and Alex will throw a three yard hitch -- hence football outsiders came up with the "Alex" stat for checkdowns.

 

I can also say plenty of nice things about Alex and personally I think Kirk and him are close as players even though they are different stylistically. 

 

But since you asked, there are some people who have pointed to the Alex Smith acquistion as a downgrade.  Some as an upgrade.  Some as somewhere in between.    I'd average it all as a wash.    I know Bucky Brooks really came hard pro Alex Smith but Bucky is the same guy who a year ago thought Colt McCoy was as good as Kirk -- Bucky isn't a Kirk guy.

 

Yeah, I agree with Cooley that Kirk is willing to hang in the pocket longer than Alex, on average.  But you kind of have to take the good with the bad on that.  In some situations, like on a 3rd and 4, Alex will see his first read isn't open, and see it's a risky throw to his second read, so he'll just try to use his legs to pick up the first down instead of trying to fit it in there to his second read or wait for his third read to get open.  He seems to convert at a pretty high rate when he does that from what I've seen.  But then there are the occasions when he tries to bail and doesn't convert or he throws it short of the sticks, and you're just sitting there shaking your head.  For me, I think I prefer Kirk's style in situations that aren't high leverage, like Red Zone or 2-minute drills (which is most of the game, obviously).  But in those high leverage situations, I want a QB like Alex, who is much more willing to go off schedule and convert first downs and touchdowns, even if it's not necessarily from the pocket.  I think those are the moments that have the highest impact on the Win-Loss column, and it's something that I think has a chance to get us out of the 8-8 rut we've been stuck in if we can sure up some other positions in the draft and FA (Hankins).

 

I also think the "too conservative" criticism has become a bit overblown when it comes to Smith.  Alex did deserve this criticism early in his career, but lately, I think it has just become a way to downgrade him as a player without digging any deeper. He prioritizes taking care of the ball, and turnover differential is usually a pretty good predictor of who wins or loses a game, so I applaud him for this overall.  If you look at Aaron Rodgers over the last 4 years, he has the same INT rate and YPA as Smith.

 

A Rod: 7.4 yards per attempt avg over the last 4 years with 1.3% interception rate

Smith: 7.4 yards per attempt avg over the last 4 years with 1.3% interception rate

 

vs.

 

Cousins: 7.8 yards per attempt avg over the last 3 years with 2.1% interception rate

 

I'd rather have a guy who takes care of the ball, and sacrifice some depth in YPA, as opposed to having the opposite.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

I think Smith was ranked 3rd best in the league last year in tight window throws.

 

It's not my evaluation but Benoit's take.  His thing wasn't that Alex isn't accurate throwing to tight windows, his point was he was unwilling to throw into tight windows compared to other QBs.   I recall his other criticism involved his play against zone defenses.

 

Again, personally I like Alex Smith.  I don't think he's better or worse than Kirk, just different.  But I was responding to a post that seem to infer that Alex is slam dunk better across the board.  And its easy for me to notice that there are NFL observers that don't agree with it.  It seems to be a wash on that front.  Some saying Kirk is better.  Some saying Alex is better.  Some saying they averaged to being about the same. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Yeah, I agree with Cooley that Kirk is willing to hang in the pocket longer than Alex, on average.  But you kind of have to take the good with the bad on that.  In some situations, like on a 3rd and 4, Alex will see his first read isn't open, and see it's a risky throw to his second read, so he'll just try to use his legs to pick up the first down instead of trying to fit it in there to his second read or wait for his third read to get open. 

 

 

While I have watched my share of Chiefs games including lately ( a lot of Chief re-airs of games have been on NFL Netowrk) I haven't slowed down the tape to really study Alex where I am watching his reads, etc.  But I've read and listened to whatever I could.  

 

Cooley has been the most detailed in the head to head comparisons.  And he doesn't think its even remotely Alex does everything better than Kirk.  He thinks its really close.  Doesn't mean he's right but he was very detailed in his opinion.  Going back to the leaving the pocket issue, Cooley described Alex on that front is that he's almost RG3 (hyperbole to make a point) like in that he moves in the pocket but not with enough of an organized purpose like lets say an Aaron Rodgers -- he comes off a bit chaotic and while people remember his good runs in that mix of those plays -- there are way too many bad plays that come from this habit. 

 

So he doesn't describe it as a good habit but you got to just take the little bad with the greater good -- he sees it as the reverse.   He likes his mobility in terms of just going for it when the opponent's are playing man and you can take advantage of it.  But he thinks his scrambles are a bit chaotic and doesn't throw well on the move in those situations and many of those plays end ugly. 

 

Cooley more or less says for a guy with wheels Alex does a poor job of keeping his eyes downfield looking for the open receiver when he escapes the pocket.   Cooley also said Alex gets sacked too many times where its his fault.  He had other criticisms too but this is what I recall the most vividly.  

 

What Cooley loves about Alex is his mastery of RPO.  He's big into adding some needed trickery into this offense and thinks Alex will help bring that needed dynamic.  So Cooley digs Alex but he doesn't see him as one of the elite QBs for several reasons and he got into a bunch of things Kirk does better and vice versa.   

 

But anyway I am stopping at this point as to criticism.  If I go back and forth on this argument it would come off like I am an Alex critic and I am not a critic of his.  I've just noticed from listening to many talk about the two QBs, its really a mixed opinion on which player is better.   Do I think the FO handled this whole thing well?  The Kirk negotiation-Alex trade.  Not even a little.  It was a disaster IMO.   

 

But if the focus is squarely on Alex Smith and forgetting the rest.  Like Kirk, he has impeccable character.  Really good guy.  And he is an upper echelon QB.  The criticism of Alex by the KC media and fans (justified or not) are ironically almost identical to Kirk's critics takes -- the KC guys who don't like him (in particular Specter) say you need to surround him with big weapons otherwise he's somewhat ordinary, he's bad in the red zone, bad in big spots, not aggressive enough.   Is that true or not as to reality?  I don't know. 

 

As for what I personally think from what I've observed and learned.  I love the dude's personality.  I love that he's crazy smart.  I like the mobility.  Like Cooley, I am jazzed about the RPOs and RO. I like that he doesn't mistakes -- I am not bothered by conservative labels of QBs whether they are justified or not --(I was just repeating criticism I've heard multiple times on that front including from a football outsiders guy who elaborated on this on Galdi's show who still doesn't think Alex has turned a major corner on that front).  But for me, my take is turnovers lose games -- so I don't hate QBs that take the conservative route. 

 

To me the wild card about Alex is that his weapons were insane last year.  I saw a stat that the Chiefs receivers had the best separation numbers of any WR group.  T. Hill wasn't just good but the best deep threat in the league last year.  Kelce is IMO as good as J. Reed but he can stay healthy a lot better.  We don't have a guy like Hunt.  Alex typically had top 10 running games.  It's part of the reason why I am desperate for a real running back.  Every QB needs a running game but IMO if you want to get the most out of Alex's skills -- ball handling, RO, etc -- you need a dynamic back. 

 

[beachboy757]

How do you all think our prime-time schedule will be with Alex Smith as QB? With Kirk Cousins I think we were becoming a somewhat featured team. The team has been on SNF, MNF, Saturdays, 4PM's and holidays the last couple of season due to watchable QB play.

 

My guess is the team will still be featured as much as the last two seasons.  In my opinion our offense will still be good. I believe Alex Smith will use the 'game manager' criticism as motivation to play well again this season. 

[nor cal 11]

4 hours ago, Cliffmark1 said:

Ok so let me start off with the fact that I wish the Redskins played at their 80s-early 90s level.  It's sad to me what has happened to this great team, and I wish Alex great success. 

 

Objectively I think many people could agree:

 

Kirk vs Alex:

Kirk is a better passer, in almost every single aspect of the game.  He can make all the throws and he has a good balance of decision making of going deep and moving the chains, some people have knocked Alex for those two things.  He can't make all of the throws and he is at times too conservative. 

 

Alex is likely better at running and elusiveness, however, Kirk has better pocket awareness and overall a good mind for when he should take a hit and step into a throw and when he should throw it away, he is better than Alex at this who some have critiqued he is too quick to give up on plays and run. 

 

Kirk is statistically more effective than Alex under pressure. 

 

Kirk throws more and when he does he maintains similar accuracy to Alex.  Some may argue that Kirk is more accurate across the gamut of his throws.  He has been relied on to run a debatably vanilla offense that has had passing as it's only offensive weapon and statistically poor defenses.  Kirk throws more touchdowns, avg of seven more per year and has never missed a game.  

 

Alex has more complete teams around him with a very innovative offense and smart front office and training structure around him.  With this in mind, and many Redskins being injured the last few years statistically Kirk has never missed a game due to injury.  So using advanced statistical analysis isolating QB performance I think Kirk's statistics would be quite a bit better than Alex but we will see next year, "that's why they play the game". 

im new here but i can tell you this. you are full of **** on all points. alex is a better passer.  alex is a better runner. alex is a better leader.  alex has had better teams around him? lol. give me a fkn break.  kansas city was 2 and 14. sf sucked ass forever.  noone gives alex credit for anything.  ive watched every snap.  alex makes teams good.  you 8 and 8 team is way better than the 2 and 14 team alex took to the play offs. buckle up dc.  your in for a ride.    

[nor cal 11]

as far as prime time games?  look how many times i wasted sunday ticket just to watch every chiefs game. alex will get no credit when your (now our) redskins play prime time every week. but guess what.  alex will be the leader of the team, and like it or not dc will be kicking ass and taking names.

 

i never gave 2 ****s about your team, but now that ive went back and watched lasts years tape im excited to see alex running the los like manning in his prime.  to the ship mother ****ers! GET SOME!

[HTTRDynasty]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

To me the wild card about Alex is that his weapons were insane last year.  I saw a stat that the Chiefs receivers had the best separation numbers of any WR group.

 

I keep seeing this point being brought up, and this isn't really directed at you, but I just wanted to address it because I keep seeing it used as a knock against Alex.  You're right that Alex had great weapons last year and his WRs created a lot of separation, but what people don't realize is that, according to PFF, Kirk had the highest percentage of open throws in the league the past couple of years.  So Alex is jumping right into an offense that consistently schemes his receivers open, and not for just one year like in KC, but on a year to year basis, and that is huge, because we saw the type of stats he could put up when he was throwing to open receivers like Kirk has been doing pretty much since becoming a starter.

 

The video from where I took the bolded is below by the way.  It's at 2:00 where they say it.

 

 

As to the rest of your post, I actually agree with a lot of Cooley's points.  I'm by no means trying to say that Smith is an elite QB and that he's way better than Kirk in all aspects of being a QB.  I just honestly couldn't think of any particular skills I could say Kirk is definitively better at.  That doesn't mean I don't think they're in the same general tier as QBs (2nd/3rd tier).  

 

Like you, I hate the compensation we gave up in the trade, and I hate the fact that we got so little compensation back from Kirk leaving.  It was possibly the worst way Bruce could've handled this whole thing.  But I took about a 3 week hiatus from all things Skins after the trade went down, and I've put it behind me and come back excited for the new QB that we do have.  Honestly, the biggest reason I'm excited about Smith this season is that I love the mobility aspect that Smith brings without us having to sacrifice much, if anything, as a passer when he's in the pocket like you generally would with other mobile QBs.  I also think that Smith has a much higher IQ when it comes to situational football (2 minute, Red Zone, 3rd downs, etc.), and that's an extremely underrated part of being a QB.  I'm not trying to say that Smith is Brady when it comes to situational football (this is the best part of Brady's game IMO, and it's a big part of what makes him the GOAT in my book), but I will say that Smith is better than Cousins at this aspect, and I think we will see the impact of that in the Win-Loss column this year.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It's not my evaluation but Benoit's take.  His thing wasn't that Alex isn't accurate throwing to tight windows, his point was he was unwilling to throw into tight windows compared to other QBs. 

 

 

I know lol...but it was brought up in your post so I responded to your post.

 

Ironically, the write-up on Cousins in 2016 started off saying "Kirk Cousins doesn't throw into tight windows" and listed his percentage of tight window throws as something like 14%, which is right around Smith's percentage from 2017 (couldn't find Cousins' tight window throw stats from 2017, probably gotta pay to get 'em).

[bedlamVR]

@HTTRDynasty yeah I keep seeing thus relating to the chiefs but I said a while ago QBs like Kirk and Alex are guys who operate in a system and operate well . Reid and Gruden are very very good offensive co-ordinaries from the same west coast philosophy but Reid .. to me has always had the more conservative passing philosophy but amazing run game but Jays passing game and the schemes he uses are very effective ... 

 

One other thing that is interesting with the Kirk is gutsier than Alex comment I am going to say is valid because Kirk will hang in the pocket and moves well in the pocket and that is great between the 20’s .. but when Kirk got inside the red zone  I dunno he kind of lost the decisiveness maybe waiting on better options that just don’t hapen.

 

I know Jay wanted Kirk to take more chances in the red zone leading to the awesome back and forth where Kirk said if I took all the shots Hay told me to I would have 20 more interceptions to which Jay shot back yeah but he would have 60 more touchdowns too . 

 

I kind of think right now the Kirk / Alex thing is a wash .... time will tell who was better in Jays system . I don’t think in terms of play we are any worse at QB but I think we took absolutely the worst possible route to get here 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

I know lol...but it was brought up in your post so I responded to your post.

 

Ironically, the write-up on Cousins in 2016 started off saying "Kirk Cousins doesn't throw into tight windows" and listed his percentage of tight window throws as something like 14%, which is right around Smith's percentage from 2017 (couldn't find Cousins' tight window throw stats from 2017, probably gotta pay to get 'em).

 

 Benoit who made the point ironically turned from a Kirk critic (practically hero to those people ripping Kirk on those threads ) to someone who liked him after last year but still doesn't love him but likes him over Alex.

 

8 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

As to the rest of your post, I actually agree with a lot of Cooley's points.  I'm by no means trying to say that Smith is an elite QB and that he's way better than Kirk in all aspects of being a QB.  I just honestly couldn't think of any particular skills I could say Kirk is definitively better at.  That doesn't mean I don't think they're in the same general tier as QBs (2nd/3rd tier).  

 

 

I actually think both Kirk and Alex are better than that generalization.  But neither are in the Brady, Rodgers, Brees camp category. If they aren't in the Matt Ryan class than they aren't a mile off.

 

8 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Like you, I hate the compensation we gave up in the trade, and I hate the fact that we got so little compensation back from Kirk leaving.  It was possibly the worst way Bruce could've handled this whole thing.  But I took about a 3 week hiatus from all things Skins after the trade went down, and I've put it behind me and come back excited for the new QB that we do have.  Honestly, the biggest reason I'm excited about Smith this season is that I love the mobility aspect that Smith brings without us having to sacrifice much, if anything, as a passer when he's in the pocket like you generally would with other mobile QBs.  I also think that Smith has a much higher IQ when it comes to situational football (2 minute, Red Zone, 3rd downs, etc.), and that's an extremely underrated part of being a QB.

  

I am at the same place for most of this.   My only nitpick is Alex has been criticized for not being that hot of a red zone QB.  And as for 3rd downs, a guy from Football Outsiders said part of the reason why they coined a phrase Alex for checkdowns was specifically about how he'd check down even on 3rd and long.  He has a long explanation about tracking down and distance for QBs and guys like Aaron Rodgers throw 10 plus yards on 3rd and 8 or whatever routinely whereas Alex throws a disproportionate times short of the sticks.  I just looked it up both Alex and Kirk were meh last year at earning first downs in third down situations.  And Alex keep in mind was coming off his career year.

 

But as for the rest, yeah for me I am very interested in seeing the RPO/RO part of the game here jacked up.  And if they draft a good running back and couple that with Alex's ball handling skills -- that should be a fun watch and give needed balance to our offense.  Like Kirk, he's very accurate with the intermediate throws.  That's one thing I forgot that Cooley said Kirk does better -- Cooley thinks Alex is good with the intermediate stuff but not as good as Kirk with throws up the middle which he thinks is Kirk's niche.

 

But Alex is accurate, mobile, smart and really cool dude -- so am into seeing how it unfolds and obviously rooting for him.  But I think some will be disappointed if they raise the bar too high because like I said when I listen to the critics of Alex from KC they sound almost word for word identical to the Kirk critics here.  Now, I liked Kirk and I think much of that criticism was unwarranted.  Alex I think also shouldn't be slammed in essence for not being Aaron Rodgers.  And like Kirk he deserves more weapons.  Hopefully that happens in the draft.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/12/13/chiefs-struggles-in-red-zone-have-been-costly-this-season/108582058/

"We would have loved to not have kicked so many field goals," Chiefs quarterback Alex Smith said. "We've been moving the ball really well. ... Had a lot of drives that for whatever reason — the missed opportunities and negative plays in the red zone. We had chances I think to make plays and didn't."

That's been a trend for the Chiefs the past couple of years.

They're only converting 44.44 percent of their trips inside the 20-yard line into touchdowns this season, a modest decrease over the 47.37 percent of last season. That ranks 28th in the league...

Smith has been asked about the Chiefs' red zone woes before, and he points out the inherent trouble in scoring close to the goal line.

[SWFLSkins]

 

[SWFLSkins]

15 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Can anyone name a specific skill that Kirk is better at than Alex?  I'm not talking about putting up better bulk stats over his career, I'm talking about a skill, like "more accurate" or "better at post-snap reads" or "better situational awareness".  Is there anything?  I'm struggling to come up with a list.

 

 

[SWFLSkins]

 

[HTTRDynasty]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/12/13/chiefs-struggles-in-red-zone-have-been-costly-this-season/108582058/

"We would have loved to not have kicked so many field goals," Chiefs quarterback Alex Smith said. "We've been moving the ball really well. ... Had a lot of drives that for whatever reason — the missed opportunities and negative plays in the red zone. We had chances I think to make plays and didn't."

That's been a trend for the Chiefs the past couple of years.

They're only converting 44.44 percent of their trips inside the 20-yard line into touchdowns this season, a modest decrease over the 47.37 percent of last season. That ranks 28th in the league...

Smith has been asked about the Chiefs' red zone woes before, and he points out the inherent trouble in scoring close to the goal line.

 

I agree with most of the rest of your post, but the quote above leaves out the fact that Smith had zero INTs in the Red Zone last season.  He had 13 TDs and 0 INTs (with 44% completion percentage) inside the 20 and 10 TDs and 0 INTs (with 50% completion percentage) inside the 10.  Whereas Cousins had 17 TDs and 3 INTs (50% completion percentage) inside the 20 and 7 TDs and I INT (34.62% completion percentage) inside the 10.

 

Also, re: 3rd downs... the Chiefs ranked 14th in 3rd down conversion percentage last year.  The Redskins ranked 31st.  Not all of that is on Kirk or Smith obviously, since Smith had a better running game that likely converted on 3rd and short more often, but we can probably safely assume that at least half of those attempts from both QBs were on 3rd and medium or 3rd and long.

[Veryoldschool]

I think Smith ought to be compared with the knucklehead 1 read offense clown Snyder could have moved up to draft not Cousins.  We lost a good cb but held on to our first round picks for the next few years.  Snyder is capable of great stupidity, rash and reckless trades, this doesn't appear to be stupid and certainly not reckless.  Gruden has a chance for modest success in 2018 with Smith which I would welcome.  I believe modest success is the father of greater success.  I hope the use the draft to bolster the offense by upgrading the center of the OL, a TE and a RB.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I agree with most of the rest of your post, but the quote above leaves out the fact that Smith had zero INTs in the Red Zone last season.  He had 13 TDs and 0 INTs (with 44% completion percentage) inside the 20 and 10 TDs and 0 INTs (with 50% completion percentage) inside the 10.  Whereas Cousins had 17 TDs and 3 INTs (50% completion percentage) inside the 20 and 7 TDs and I INT (34.62% completion percentage) inside the 10.

 

 

It doesn't seem to me much of a difference.  I was just saying their BOTH guys are criticized for their red zone play -- KC has struggled with it on the aggregate. 

 

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Also, re: 3rd downs... the Chiefs ranked 14th in 3rd down conversion percentage last year.  The Redskins ranked 31st.  Not all of that is on Kirk or Smith obviously, since Smith had a better running game that likely converted on 3rd and short more often, but we can probably safely assume that at least half of those attempts from both QBs were on 3rd and medium or 3rd and long.

 

There is a specific stat that just focuses on the QB without the RB.  On that front, Alex and Kirk weren't hot at converting first downs on third down.  Alex a hair better.  The fact that you bring up that KC was on the aggregate good on third down if anything props up Kirk because it shows the power of KC's running game which Kirk didn't have the luxury of having.  How many times did we see our RBs stuffed on 3rd and short -- it was nauseating. 

 

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&rank=098&type=Passing

 

But again, I don't want to be the guy raining on Alex.  I like him as a player.  My point is the criticisms leveled his way via some KC fans and media types are almost word for word the stuff I read/heard from the Kirk critics.