bobandweave Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said: Turnovers I get. But Kirk typically doesn't get sacked much. It wasn't his fault that the O line was full of third stringers for a chunk of the season. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/ Number one in yards lost due to sacks taken. For someone who is plugged in like I am I’m surprised that you left off the issue many have said about Kirk and that he would hold the ball too long. You don’t think that had something to do with it? I do and don’t blame only injuries for it. Quote Cooley who likes Alex Smith said Alex does have a tendency to take too many sacks that are on him -- he thinks Alex is a downgrade from Kirk specifically on the sack front. Will see. Last three seasons sacks taken Alex Smith 108 Kirk Cousins 90 Alex averaged taking 6 more sacks a season behind a much worse line then what Kirk had over the same time period. Behind a better line with his ability to run I doubt that he has 40 sacks taken this year Quote But yeah Kirk's key weakness last year was his fumbles. As for Alex being an upgrade, I doubt it. But I think it will be similar. Glad glad to know you doubt Alex is better then Kirk and even more glad to know people like Bill Polian as just one example clearly disagree. In fact a lot of people disagree with your assessment. Time will tell but to me Kirk didn’t set the bar very high so surpassing what he did should be easy Quote If Alex gets a good RB in this draft than maybe the offense will be better. IMO you need a good running game to maximize Alex's skills. The man won 50 games the past five seasons when he didn’t always have a good RB. Not that I disagree persay that a good RB is needed I think your far unestimating how much he needs one to be successful Quote As for the season -- IMO lets see how the draft and the rest of the off season unfold. I see the team as its currently constructed an 8-8 team. If they upgrade at DT and RB-10-6ish. Take the over 5.5 wins this season ?? 4 hours ago, SWFLSkins said: Tweet that and copy to me.....thnx. Ashburning@johnnylocal I am old and have no clue how to do that sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 1 hour ago, bobandweave said: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/ Number one in yards lost due to sacks taken. For someone who is plugged in like I am I’m surprised that you left off the issue many have said about Kirk and that he would hold the ball too long. You don’t think that had something to do with it? I do and don’t blame only injuries for it. in 2016, it wasn't a problem. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2016/leaders.htm You are acting here like the O line was some sort of minor issue as to this stat. The O line injuries was the main plot of the whole season falling apart let alone fits the category of well that's just one thing what else you got? Avoiding sacks is something that Kirk is traditionally good at. He gets rid of the ball fast. Not holding the ball too long, has not been a Kirk thing that was the complaint about his predecessor. If anything the complaint about Kirk is typically he got rid of the ball too fast without letting plays develop. Ironically, Kirk's critics loved to assaill him for getting rid of the ball too fast. Alex Smith has a lightening quick release, too -- throws a lot of short passes. But he tends to get sacked. IMO a better way to make the point is Alex gets sacks because he's on the move in the pocket. That fits. The typical QB who likes to run tends to get hit and tends to take sacks. Both have fast releases. 1 hour ago, bobandweave said: Last three seasons sacks taken Alex Smith 108 Kirk Cousins 90 This helps my point. The only thing that made it even competitive was last years staggered numbers. I agree the Redskins O line is better than the Chiefs. But the 2017 Redskins O line was wretched even by Chief standards. 1 hour ago, bobandweave said: Glad glad to know you doubt Alex is better then Kirk and even more glad to know people like Bill Polian as just one example clearly disagree. In fact a lot of people disagree with your assessment. You got people on both sides of this discussion. Bill Polian the same dude who is pals with Bruce Allen and said once that RG3 is a can't miss prospect and has the best release for a QB since Dan Marino -- is just one opinion not gospel. Personally, I think its a bad trade that will end up getting Bruce fired unless he does more to upgrade this season. Otherwise they are wasting a 34 year QB who is at his prime but won't be so forever. As for Alex Smith and Kirk Cousins. I think they are different versions of the same guy. Different players but the outcomes will be similar. If you are looking for opinion makers to tie to everything than my opinion would be identical to Joe Theismann, D. Green, Cooley among plenty of others. IMO it's a lateral move. Not better. Not worse. 1 hour ago, bobandweave said: The man won 50 games the past five seasons when he didn’t always have a good RB. Not that I disagree persay that a good RB is needed I think your far unestimating how much he needs one to be successful I don't feel like digging up the stat but saw a couple of times that he had a top 10 running game for the large majority of his successful seasons. But my point isn't exclusive to W-L but its to exploit his ball handling skills with a RB that poses a real danger -- are teams going to freak out about the ROP or RO with fat Rob? I doubt it. Give him a real RB to maximize his skills. That's not a dig at Alex but that's me saying you should tailor your offense to maximize your QB skills. For Flacco for example give him a deep threat. For a guy like Alex present a RB that makes defenses worry about the handoffs in the RO-RPO. There is a reason why Kirk is way ahead of Alex in the MVP odds. Part of it is Kirk is loaded in Minny. Kirk had garbage to work with last year. Now he has it all. If we want to see Alex have a better year than Kirk or just maximize what he can do -- IMO he deserves a RB that poses a real threat. He's not going to do it with R. Kelly IMO. That's not a knock on him that's just me believing the supporting cast for any QB is a big big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWFLSkins Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 2 hours ago, bobandweave said: I am old and have no clue how to do that sorry PM me with your intstie and I'll tweet that for your review. lol. Or just Facetime myspace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 . 7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said: There is a reason why Kirk is way ahead of Alex in the MVP odds. Part of it is Kirk is loaded in Minny. Kirk had garbage to work with last year. Now he has it all. If we want to see Alex have a better year than Kirk or just maximize what he can do -- IMO he deserves a RB that poses a real threat. He's not going to do it with R. Kelly IMO. That's not a knock on him that's just me believing the supporting cast for any QB is a big big deal. Coaching is also a factor. Better coaches in Minnesota. They got the better Bengal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Any time we're not losing is a blessed relief so yes. Yes it would. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bh32 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 15 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said: . Coaching is also a factor. Better coaches in Minnesota. They got the better Bengal. Yet in 2016 when Cousins had legit receivers the Redskins offense was way better than the Vikings..Gruden has nothing but trash to work with compared to what Zimmer has to work with.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 That tweet below plays off of the point I made the other day. I like Alex Smith (though don't like the trade as I've explained) but I don't want my season to be all about riding his or any other QB's back without a strong supporting cast. FA has been IMO weak so far. Though there is more time to make a move so I hold out hope. So I'd grade them an incomplete right now. And we got the draft coming up so that could be fun. Will see. Look at the roster Kirk is about to play with in Minny -- its really talented and balanced. They can rush the passer. They can stop the run. They have really good passing weapons. They have a stud RB. That's what roster building is all about. That's what we should hope they can build here. Rich TandlerVerified account @TandlerNBCS 4h4 hours ago More In the last 3 years, when Cousins posted a passer rating of <90 in a game the Redskins were 2-17. When Smith was <90, KC was 9-9. Speaks much more to teams around them than to the QBs themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 On 4/23/2018 at 3:48 AM, Rdskns2000 said: . Coaching is also a factor. Better coaches in Minnesota. They got the better Bengal. The talent disparity between the Vikings and the Redskins is insane. Sometimes we get into debates in different threads about talent and some justify the FO moves - hey we are saving money, hey maybe we don't need Calais Campbell, lets see what McGee and McClain can do. We have relatively unambitious approaches to our off seasons and mainly because Cerrato was overly aggressive and failed -- it gets applauded as a refreshing change. But by and large IMO its a "meh" approach. I don't think its an accident that the odds makers types and national media outfits are ratcheting down not up expectations for the 2018 team. Our off seasons in the past falsely sold hope -- now they are boring and uninspiring. I thought it was funny that CooleySheehan ran a segment of pick your poison the Cerrato style off seasons or Bruce? Cooley who admits is pals with Bruce said he'd take Vinny's approach because at least there is some fun and ambition to it. And yeah since we had good QB play we can survive these off seasons at some point I'd like to see some serious moves to upgrade the roster where they become a serious contender versus treading water give or take around 8-8. I am not one of the people who think they would have had a great season if everyone was healthy. Better, yes. But not a threat in the playoffs. For starters there is no scenario for every team where everyone is healthy and the idea that your defensive can sink because of depth on the D line isn't fixed IMO but hoping injuries this time don't happen. It's a depth-rotational driven spot by nature. You'd think the Redskins not the Vikings had the monster D line in 2017 -- since the Vikings were the team that signed Richardson. Ditto about the Eagles and the Redskins d line with the Eagles making the major move. Now granted the move might still be coming, will see. As for coaching, I agree with part of your point but not the other point. Zimmer is one of my favorite coaches and I'd say he's a better defensive mind than Manusky. Zimmer is a legend. But I think Zimmer's friend, Jay Gruden is a good coach, too. Yeah he has weaknesses -- to me its clock management and running game scheme -- every coach does. But the way this team is currently constructed IMO during the Kirk years is that most of our success was predicated on the shoulders of Kirk and Jay's play calling. The way the roster is constructed now (pre-draft so hopefully that changes) is on the back of Jay's play calling and Alex Smith. You take Jay out of the equation and give this team an ordinary play caller with a roster with no balance like we got now -- this team goes south IMO. Regardless, I am always a talent > coaching guy. I don't care what coach we have, we can't win with wretched special teams, bad run defense and run game. Jimmy Kempski @JimmyKempski Apr 22 More If you're an Eagles' fan I would say the following are the ideal outcomes for the first round of the draft for the other 3 NFCE teams: Giants: Draft Saquon. Cowboys: Panic trade up for WR. Redskins: Allow Bruce Allen to keep making decisions. 62 replies143 retweets846 likes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJHJR86 Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 On 4/22/2018 at 12:07 PM, bobandweave said: The Redskins also lost a 20 turnover a season QB and replaced him with one that turned the ball over 6 times. And they lost the QB who led the league in yards lost due to sacks taken. Addition by subtraction. Oddly, when you compare Alex to Kirk since 2015, Kirk has had 11 fumbles lost, Alex 10. And it's almost comical that you don't factor in the joke of an offensive line we had last year, which is likely a reason as to why the yards lost is so much higher. Kirk never had a season over 200 yards lost until last year. Alex smith has had 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 On 4/22/2018 at 7:16 PM, Skinsinparadise said: in 2016, it wasn't a problem. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2016/leaders.htm You are acting here like the O line was some sort of minor issue as to this stat. The O line injuries was the main plot of the whole season falling apart let alone fits the category of well that's just one thing what else you got? Avoiding sacks is something that Kirk is traditionally good at. He gets rid of the ball fast. No I'm being fair about the sack numbers where as you seem to be down on the QB before he's even taken a snap in the Jay Grudens run offense. I will never understand someone like yourself who is overly harsh on a team you are a fan of before you even have a preseason game to review. Let the games begin before taking such a point of view. I mean I get it, some of you are fans of Kirk Cousins. To me Kirk Cousins will always be a game choking reckless QB where simple minded fans make too much of his passing yard stats and not enough of the intangibles that could make him a good QB. Kirk is fools gold. In other words Kirk is massively overrated by the fans who don't get what separates a real QB and a fake one. Is Kirk someone to lift his team up and propel them to greatness? Hell no. He sucked here and only is revered by some because it's easy to look good when the team didn't have a QB for years and years before him. Kirk was better then what they had before him but Kirk isn't good, Kirk won't win a title in Minnesota and that's just my opinion. After the season ends for Minnesota expect a pm from me. As for the sack number debate I don't agree, you can't compare QBs with different offensive lines. Clearly the offensive line here is better then what exists in Kansas City. This season will show if Alex is what you say he is - A guy who takes too many sacks. On 4/22/2018 at 7:16 PM, Skinsinparadise said: Not holding the ball too long, has not been a Kirk thing that was the complaint about his predecessor. If anything the complaint about Kirk is typically he got rid of the ball too fast without letting plays develop. Ironically, Kirk's critics loved to assaill him for getting rid of the ball too fast. http://washington.cbslocal.com/2017/11/03/jay-gruden-wants-kirk-cousins-to-give-his-receivers-a-chance/ Him deciding not to the throw the ball to his receivers caused that. Clearly Jay wanted more from Kirk and he didn't get it because by his own words Cousins admitted "Cousins chuckled when told of Gruden’s comments. “If I played the way Jay is suggesting,” he says, “I’d throw 20 interceptions a year, and I wouldn’t last. I know my limitations.” Know's his limitations? Worried about looking bad. You think that attitude doesn't carry with this guy everywhere he goes? It will On 4/22/2018 at 7:16 PM, Skinsinparadise said: Alex Smith has a lightening quick release, too -- throws a lot of short passes. But he tends to get sacked. IMO a better way to make the point is Alex gets sacks because he's on the move in the pocket. That fits. The typical QB who likes to run tends to get hit and tends to take sacks. Both have fast releases. Very suspect. Your argument is that mobile QB's which Kirk is definitely not, takes more sacks then one who isn't mobile. While this is slightly true the case is misleading because 1) The stats for sacks taken does not distinguish between a sack taken and a designated rush that falls behind the line of gain they are counted the same and 2) The sacks taken stat does not say how many sacks could/should have been received but the mobile QB avoided the sack by rushing out of harms way. Saying Alex tends to take more sacks is misleading. On 4/22/2018 at 7:16 PM, Skinsinparadise said: This helps my point. The only thing that made it even competitive was last years staggered numbers. I agree the Redskins O line is better than the Chiefs. But the 2017 Redskins O line was wretched even by Chief standards. What this shows is the Redskins having a better offensive line then what the Chiefs had. If you cant see this 2016 Season - https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-this-season 2015 Season - https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-lines-this-season Read up. Better offensive line, less sacks. On 4/22/2018 at 7:16 PM, Skinsinparadise said: You got people on both sides of this discussion. Bill Polian the same dude who is pals with Bruce Allen and said once that RG3 is a can't miss prospect and has the best release for a QB since Dan Marino -- is just one opinion not gospel. Bill Polian is some dude who is pals with Bruce Allen? Are you that tarnished and warped with your fandom of Kirk Cousins to understand who the hell Polian is? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Polian Built the Buffalo Bills team in the 90s who went to 4 straight Superbowls Introduced the Carolina Panthers to the league who went to the NFC Championship game in its second season Won the Superbowl with the Colts Inducted into the Profootball Hall of Fame 6 Time NFL Executive of the Year Don't let your warped view of Kirk Cousins discredit the guy who picked Peyton Manning over Ryan Leaf and who told the world he would have taken Andrew Luck over Griffin and act like this guys opinion is garbage. That only completely exposes you On 4/22/2018 at 7:16 PM, Skinsinparadise said: Personally, I think its a bad trade that will end up getting Bruce fired unless he does more to upgrade this season. Otherwise they are wasting a 34 year QB who is at his prime but won't be so forever. As for Alex Smith and Kirk Cousins. I think they are different versions of the same guy. Different players but the outcomes will be similar. If you are looking for opinion makers to tie to everything than my opinion would be identical to Joe Theismann, D. Green, Cooley among plenty of others. IMO it's a lateral move. Not better. Not worse. You can personally think its a bad trade. Your entitled to that opinion but your clearly wrong in my opinion for taking that opinion. I do hope that Bruce is fired, should have been years ago and an absolute disgrace what was released about him this week. The issue is since Snyder can't do the simplest of things and respond to the report I don't think Bruce is going anywhere and that's just a shame for all of us. Fire Bruce Allen should be on every fans lips today. On 4/22/2018 at 7:16 PM, Skinsinparadise said: There is a reason why Kirk is way ahead of Alex in the MVP odds. Part of it is Kirk is loaded in Minny. Kirk had garbage to work with last year. Now he has it all. If we want to see Alex have a better year than Kirk or just maximize what he can do -- IMO he deserves a RB that poses a real threat. He's not going to do it with R. Kelly IMO. That's not a knock on him that's just me believing the supporting cast for any QB is a big big deal. And part of it is what you believe "Kirk has it all" versus what Kirk has show all of us. They put those odds on him hoping suckers think like you do and lose money. Truth is give Kirk a RB like Leveon Bell and what do you get? Nothing. Give Kirk two thousand yard receivers and a top five TE and what do you get? Nothing. Now "he's got it all" and what will it get him? I'd bet an early exit from the playoffs today and nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 6 hours ago, DJHJR86 said: Oddly, when you compare Alex to Kirk since 2015, Kirk has had 11 fumbles lost, Alex 10. And it's almost comical that you don't factor in the joke of an offensive line we had last year, which is likely a reason as to why the yards lost is so much higher. Kirk never had a season over 200 yards lost until last year. Alex smith has had 6. Fumbles lost is a meaningless stat. Who recovers is all luck with the bounce of a ball. Also with an avatar like yours before the QB's even taken a snap shows your far from objectionable. I'm not spending any more time arguing with Kirk Cousins fans, he's gone. Get over it. He lied to all of us for two years about wanting to be here and admitted he didn't. That's not someone to defend. That's a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Bobandweave: I thought about responding to it all. But your core argument which you lead off with is based on a wild misrepresentation of my point of view where if anything my take is much closer to the opposite take. So you lost me right away. Unless my mood changes, I'll stick to things I agree with you. When we disagree, the exchange just gets a bit wild for me and while I don't mind a good debate -- I don't like it when my view is twisted into something wildly different than what I actually said. I think the one hung up on Kirk is you. A lot of anger in your posts on that front. I can detect anger in posts pretty well. How you feel about Kirk. I feel about Bruce. But Kirk's not here so if you want to vent on the dude, have at it. I don't give a rats behind about it. I was trying to having a serious conversation about what each QB brings in terms of building the roster. But forget it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @SkinsinparadiseYou’re a bigger man than I, lol. Looking over the numbers, one interesting thing is that in 2016, with a legitimate deep threat, Kirk held the ball longer than in 2017. He went from near the end of the pack to the middle. Comparing those same years, Smith went from the quickest to get the ball out to middle of the pack. I’m not making the argument that having a deep threat lead to these changes, but it’s an interesting note. I’m with you that I really hope we are able to give Smith a better back, particularly one that can make teams respect both the run game and the rb dump offs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJHJR86 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 13 hours ago, bobandweave said: Fumbles lost is a meaningless stat. Who recovers is all luck with the bounce of a ball. Also with an avatar like yours before the QB's even taken a snap shows your far from objectionable. I'm not spending any more time arguing with Kirk Cousins fans, he's gone. Get over it. He lied to all of us for two years about wanting to be here and admitted he didn't. That's not someone to defend. That's a liar. I'm over Kirk. Absolutely did not want Alex Smith as the starter. Both of these statements can be true. I'm sure there's a large portion of the fan base who feel the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsailand Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 On 4/24/2018 at 5:15 PM, bobandweave said: Kirk won't win a title in Minnesota and that's just my opinion. After the season ends for Minnesota expect a pm from me. 31 QBs aren't going to win a title this year. This is the level the anti-Kirkers are at now -- he needs to win the Super Bowl for them to consider him good. It could end Patriots 45 - Vikings 42, and Kirk would still be blamed for not outdueling tom Brady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJHJR86 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 15 hours ago, Tsailand said: 31 QBs aren't going to win a title this year. This is the level the anti-Kirkers are at now -- he needs to win the Super Bowl for them to consider him good. It could end Patriots 45 - Vikings 42, and Kirk would still be blamed for not outdueling tom Brady. Meanwhile, we'll go 7-9 and hear about how "all he does is win" and how much more of a leader Smith is...because he bought a house here and went to a Wizards game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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