No Excuses

ThinkProgress: Trump confidant dumped millions in steel-related stock last week (Also the Trade War thread)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, No Excuses said:

 

That's what you got out of that post?

 

I am not interested in engaging in your moral relativism about "well the US spies too". Yeah, no ****. And I would rather our country be in charge of global telecom systems than an undemocratic authoritarian state that is building the world's most advanced surveillance system that is already trampling on people's basic human rights within its borders. There is a massive world of difference between how the Chinese are using telecom surveillance data and how the US has used it. There is no such thing as private corporations operating in China. Allowing Huawei to build telecom systems around the world is essentially asking the Chinese Communist Party, perhaps the most repressive government in the entire world at at the moment, to have access and control over the worlds digital data and communication systems.

 

And really this isn't the only reason to be engaging in a trade war with the Chinese. It's the illegal and unfair trade practices, piss poor labor laws, IP theft, their brutal crackdown on Uighur's to secure trade routes out of Central Asia, etc.

 

You're cute with your little rant.  I'll point out that I was talking about starting shifting policies with respect to China here back as far back as 2007 (and really before that, that's just the oldest thread that google will find).

 

Here's my list from 2007:

 

"How about these:

1. They are a brutal dictatorship that has run its own citizens over w/ tanks for peacefully protesting, continues to imprision people for doing things like internet searches of terms that they consider politicially dangerous, and practices slave labor.

2. They strongly support (N. Korea) and are forming strong ties w/ another(Iran), brutal dictatorships that continue to act in defiance on the international community and international agreements and are generally considered to be anti-US.

3. They are in possesion of territorties that would probably perfer to be their own country if it were not for force (Tibet and Hong Kong).

4. They continually threaten and intimidate a democracy that has been a good ally of the US (Taiwin).

5. Through intimidation and pressure or out right force they will probably force said ally to join their brutal dictatorship at sometime.

6. The "captured" an American military plane, refused to turn the plane or crew over in anything that could be considered a reasonable time frame.

7. They continue to operate spies in this country that pass them sensitive military information (http://www.washtimes.com/national/20051104-111851-2539r_page2.htm).

8. They illeagally donate money to US politicians.

9. They continue to take what can only be considered aggresive actions againsty the US, including using lasers to blind our satelites (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/26/wchina226.xml) and stalking our air craft carriers (http://www.washtimes.com/national/20061113-121539-3317r.htm).

10. They continually damage the US economy by their refusal to enforce international copy right/patent laws."

 

https://es.redskins.com/topic/185421-china-rising/?page=4

 

But the fact of the matter is given where we are today is that many countries are tired of the amount of control and power the US has.  In addition, the US has been warning/complaining about the ability of China to use technology coming from China to spy on people/countries, but has never actually provided any real evidence.

 

From there, there is no reason to think that using Huawei technology to build a 5G network is automatically going to given control over to China or Huawei.  It is possible that Huawei will build back doors into that will give them access, but it is also not a given.  And if we want other countries to not trust Huawei, we'd be better off looking at current/past Huawei technologies for things that look like back doors designed to give them secret access.

 

Given the discount Huawei is giving countries and the history of US bad behavior, you are going to have to do better than 'Oh No, China is going to take over!'  The relevant countries clearly now the risk (and no, the risk is not as bad as you make it sound because unless they are building in back doors, you can buy equipment from Huwei and not give them access to your data) and have decided it is worth it.

 

(Of course, if we had done what I said to do in 2007, we wouldn't be in this situation, but doing what made sense to do in 2007 no longer makes sense today because the world has changed.)

Edited by PeterMP

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I'll also add that Trump ruined his trade war when he made it mostly about economics and not the larger picture.  It isn't a question of he WILL mess it up.  It is an issue of he HAS messed it up.

 

By declaring to the rest of the world that the number one priority is that one of the richest countries in the world (and almost certainly the most wasteful) gets richer, he has lost any chance of any larger global support.

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

But the fact of the matter is given where we are today is that many countries are tired of the amount of control and power the US has.  In addition, the US has been warning/complaining about the ability of China to use technology coming from China to spy on people/countries, but has never actually provided any real evidence.

 

From there, there is no reason to think that using Huawei technology to build a 5G network is automatically going to given control over to China or Huawei.  It is possible that Huawei will build back doors into that will give them access, but it is also not a given.  And if we want other countries to not trust Huawei, we'd be better off looking at current/past Huawei technologies for things that look like back doors designed to give them secret access.

 

Given the discount Huawei is giving countries and the history of US bad behavior, you are going to have to do better than 'Oh No, China is going to take over!'  The relevant countries clearly now the risk (and no, the risk is not as bad as you make it sound because unless they are building in back doors, you can buy equipment from Huwei and not give them access to your data) and have decided it is worth it.

 

(Of course, if we had done what I said to do in 2007, we wouldn't be in this situation, but doing what made sense to do in 2007 no longer makes sense today because the world has changed.)

 

Sometimes I feel like you argue just for the sake of doing it. And this is quite the tangent from my initial point, which is reducing the reliance of our national supply chain away from Chinese goods.

 

I have nothing to say except what has already been covered. Here is Mark Warner, ranking Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, who is spot on about this:

 

 

Quote

 

There is ample evidence to suggest that no major Chinese company is independent of the Chinese government and Communist Party — and Huawei, which China’s government and military tout as a “national champion,” is no exception. Allowing Huawei’s inclusion in our 5G infrastructure could seriously jeopardize our national security and put critical supply chains at risk. It could also undermine U.S. competitiveness at a time when China is already attempting to surpass the U.S. technologically and economically through the use of state-directed and state-supported technology transfers.

 

This is not about finding “backdoors” in current Huawei products — that’s a fool’s errand. Software reviews of existing Huawei products are not sufficient to preclude the possibility of a vendor pushing a malicious update that enables surveillance in the future. Any supposedly safe Chinese product is one firmware update away from being an insecure Chinese product.

 

 

And here is William Snyder, law professor at Syracuse and an expert of Cyber Law and Policy:

 

Quote

Huawei is a threat to US national security, but that misses the bigger point. Vulnerabilities in the supply chain of network hardware and software is, has been, and will continue to be a threat to the national security of the United States and many other countries, including China. It remains very difficult to audit that a chip with millions of embedded transistors or software with millions of lines of code does only what consumers know and consent to it doing. Even if Huawei is not committing the sort of crimes for which a US grand jury indicted it, any company that supplies such a large percentage of the market for components of telecommunications networks and has such ties to the People’s Liberation Army is a threat. Huawei’s need to operate under Chinese laws about cooperation with Chinese military and intelligence agencies is of concern.

 

Here is what a researcher from UC Berkley's CompSci Institute has to say on finding hardware backdoors:

 

 

Quote

 

Sabotage can be really, really subtle. There are entire contests around how you make sabotage almost undetectable, such as the “underhanded C contest.” It is even more so in hardware. For example, you could sabotage the cryptographic random number generator so that if you knew the secret you could predict it, but if not, you can’t.

This is worse in telecommunications systems, as those systems are specifically designed to be wiretapped, so a little bit of sabotage in the specific wiretap-enabling routines and it would be very, very hard to detect. Plus, you also have the manufacturing: just because the design is what you “certified” doesn’t mean that the thing you buy is what you certified. A single microscopic difference: the addition of a small sabotage chip, and now you lose all your assurances.

 

 

 

I can accept that their are differing views on how we approach this issue, but to act like this is a non-issue is so stupid and a total waste of time, so you are welcome to talk to yourself from here on about this.

Edited by No Excuses

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, No Excuses said:

 

Sometimes I feel like you argue just for the sake of doing it. And this is quite the tangent from my initial point, which is reducing the reliance of our national supply chain away from Chinese goods.

 

I can accept that their are differing views on how we approach this issue, but to act like this is a non-issue is so stupid and a total waste of time, so you are welcome to talk to yourself from here on about this.

 

And of course, I never said it was a non-issue.  It certainly is possible that Huawei is building backdoors into equipment or will in the future, and if they do, it is a big issue.  But you also can't ignore that the US has a history of warning against Chinese tech companies doing such things without any evidence of it, or there being much of an indication that it has happened.

 

The fact of the matter is that most of the rest of the world is going over to Chinese telecoms and that trend is likely only going to continue in the foreseeable future.  You can pretend that it isn't happening, yell about how awful it is while we become more isolated (to our long term detriment), or actually start doing something meaningful about it (e.g. demonstrating that Huawei is acting in good faith by building backdoors into equipment or adapting to it).  

 

And I didn't say doing something about it is going to be easy.  But that's where we are now and that's the reality.  Following the national security-military industrial complex talking points of Huawei bad/US good isn't going to get it done.

 

Whether you want to ignore this post or not is up to you, but it is the reality of situation.  We have choices e.g.:

 

1.  Adapt to our telecoms and military to a world where most of the rest of the world is dependent on Chinese telecoms.

2. Provide actual physical evidence that said telecoms are actual a hazard to those other countries.

3.  Go around yelling about it with no evidence and become globally isolated.

 

I'm for 1 and/or 2.

 

(And staring a trade war based on the idea that the US is struggling economically and its economic success is our #1 priority isn't going to help.)

Edited by PeterMP

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I wonder how long Trump will be able to tell these people that they are the beneficiaries of something that is hurting them and get away with it. Eventually he will switch to blaming the dems, and that should work. But im curious how long he will try it, for one. And how long they will eat the **** hes feeding them. Willingly. Knowing its a lie. 

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If it gets bad enough domestically, he will cave to the Chinese and then declare himself as a great dealmaker in typical Trumpian fashion.

 

This is an asymmetrical trade war when it comes to how both sides deal with the fallout. American politicians have to deal with voters and their anger if prices go up and consumer access globally goes down. The Chinese Communist Party answers to no one and can centrally plan much more quickly than us.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, PeterMP said:

1.  Adapt to our telecoms and military to a world where most of the rest of the world is dependent on Chinese telecoms.

2. Provide actual physical evidence that said telecoms are actual a hazard to those other countries. 

3.  Go around yelling about it with no evidence and become globally isolated.

 

At this point, I think you just love the sound of your own voice and didn't actually read anything I posted. There are issues with detecting sophisticated hardware tampering. No, I am not going to quote more experts on this because you don't actually read, instead just post whatever tangent you want to go on.

 

And no evidence is laughable when Huawei has a history of inserting hidden backdoors for international clients: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-30/vodafone-found-hidden-backdoors-in-huawei-equipment

 

Quote

You can pretend that it isn't happening, yell about how awful it is while we become more isolated

 

Where do I pretend this isn't happening? My point is literally that this is happening and that our isolation and degradation of global alliances under Trump is making it worse. See: talking to yourself and not reading what someone is saying.

 

Quote

And of course, I never said it was a non-issue.

 

You labeled my initial post "talking points of the military-industrial complex". Either letting Huawei build the internet of the future all around the world is a security issue or its "talking points of the military-industrial complex". Pick one.

 

Quote

or actually start doing something meaningful about it

 

Wow, great suggestion! Wouldn't have thought about this if you hadn't mentioned. Perhaps getting other countries, like Australia, Canada, Taiwan, New Zealand and Japan, on-board with blocking Huawei 5G networks is "meaningful". Perhaps a lot of the EU countries considering banning any company susceptible state influence from its telecom networks is a start. Or is this all military-industrial talking points and "not meaningful"?

Edited by No Excuses

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, No Excuses said:

 

At this point, I think you just love the sound of your own voice and didn't actually read anything I posted. There are issues with detecting sophisticated hardware tampering. No, I am not going to quote more experts on this because you don't actually read, instead just post whatever tangent you want to go on.

 

And no evidence is laughable when Huawei has a history of inserting hidden backdoors for international clients: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-30/vodafone-found-hidden-backdoors-in-huawei-equipment

 

 

Where do I pretend this isn't happening? My point is literally that this is happening and that our isolation and degradation of global alliances under Trump is making it worse. See: talking to yourself and not reading what someone is saying.

 

 

You labeled my initial post "talking points of the military-industrial complex". Either letting Huawei build the internet of the future all around the world is a security issue or its "talking points of the military-industrial complex". Pick one.

 

 

Wow, great suggestion! Wouldn't have thought about this if you hadn't mentioned. Perhaps getting other countries, like Australia, Canada, Taiwan, New Zealand and Japan, on-board with blocking Huawei 5G networks is "meaningful". Perhaps a lot of the EU countries considering banning any company susceptible state influence from its telecom networks is a start. Or is this all military-industrial talking points and "not meaningful"?

 

I didn't know about that report (it came out in just the last 2 weeks), but even there, I'm not sure what to think.  It doesn't look like Vodafone has made a public statement or released something to their share holders.  My first post on this topic I included a link that talked about the historical claims of the Chinese building in backdoors where they never seem to go anywhere else other than unconfirmed reports, even in cases where there seems like there should be a legal requirement to notify share holders.

 

However, that looks pretty serious, and we need more work investigating things like that.

 

There's a difference between this an issue and there is a place for a concern, we (and our allies) need to be vigilant, and we need to have plans in place to test equipment coming from China and plans on how to deal with back doors when they are found and:

 

"Allowing Huawei to build telecom systems around the world is essentially asking the Chinese Communist Party, perhaps the most repressive government in the entire world at at the moment, to have access and control over the worlds digital data and communication systems."

 

There's a difference between a reasoned debate over the risks and awards to our allies for using Huawei and 'We aren't going to be able to work with you any more,  and China's going to steal all of your data, take over the self-driving cars and turn them into instruments of murder, and ruin your society.'

 

One is reasonable, good, and logical.  The other is talking points of the military-industrial complex, and really all it is doing is turning off our allies.

 

(Going with any option comes with risks, including China having access and control of your data (because there is no current option where much of the supply chain doesn't include China).  Then there's a difference between actually going with Huawei might increase those risks, and if you go with Huawei, you might as give China access and control of your data.  There's also acknowledging what we've done in the past, which even US allies might consider a negative.)

Edited by PeterMP

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1 hour ago, visionary said:

Is the GOP really ok with this ****?

 

Things the GOP are not OK with:

 

1). Any Republican who places anything above party loyalty. 

2). The FBI. 

3). Science. 

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