michael_33 Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I was pondering a thought a few days ago and I've decided to share it with you guys..... I was wondering if Darrell Green had somehow stayed 1 more year and played in Champ's place just for comparison,how he would have faired.... Would his age finally catch him and he would have got lit up all year? or...Would he have done as good as champ has done this year? or...Would he have been lighting it up at the age of 41/42? Might point to this thread is it shouldn't even be a thread or a topic...(to compare some 40 year old to a guy in his prime) Now I watched Darrell play and I know I shouldn't even mention Champ and Green in the same sentence,but i was curious.... Even though Green never really had a 8,9 or 10 interception year(i don't believe?)Like some of your elite CB's,he somehow made game changing plays that lead us to victory...!(or helped) For example:That broke up pass against the rams a couple of years a go that probably would have cost us the game had Green not knocked that ball away! Then of course we sack Warner and the rest is history! Green was old........Green was real old...yet somehow did what he always did......made plays to help our team win!! When was the last time champ did this for us? Green had a knack for doing this on a regular basis.... Hell,I would rather give Champs money to Darrell Green so he will come back than have an overated corner play like NEON!! I know this topic has been beat to death,but i had to say what I had to say!! On a side note:I realize Champ is a very good and athletic Corner with the tools to be the best CB in football if not ever! but to be the best you have to give it your all (100%) through the good times and bad...Champ may have the Skills to be the best,But Green had the heart in that little 5'8" frame to prove what it really takes to be good!!THE WILL TO NEVER QUIT! Personally,Champ can go pack his bags and we can go sign a corner who has 1/2 the heart That the "greatest corner to ever play the game" Darrell green has!! And I'll be happy!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYC Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Send Champ to NY, we'd love to have him. He can finally play for a winner next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posse81 Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Would Darrell fare as well as Champ this year? He was the FOURTH corner on our team last year. If Champ leaves, who the hell is going to cover the opposing team's #1 WR? Smoot is having a great year, but he is shutting down lesser guys than Champ faces every game. I'd like Champ to stay but he won't be here past next year and we're not getting 2 #1s for him--which would be nice. I think we need to address CB in the 05 draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzmuda Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 The last time I remember Champ making a play was against NE. He seems to be pressing. In fact, he seems to be in the exact same position Smoot was last year. Always around the ball, never REALLY getting beat, but just not able to make a play for lack of ball awareness or just plain looking unsure whether to try and make a play or not. We should get a 1st and 3rd for him. I'd take it, wish him well, bump up Bauman, and look to get another CB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Originally posted by NYC Send Champ to NY, we'd love to have him. He can finally play for a winner next year. Apparently you have a rather peculiar definition of "winner". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathByLinebacker Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Champ was awesome at the start of this year which makes me wonder if the injuries are taking more of a toll now than people realize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Hog Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 A good point was raised above regarding who would cover the opposing team's #1 receiver if Champ was let go. It ain't gonna matter if the opposing quarterback can have a picnic in the pocket and decide to throw the ball whenever the hell he wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Washington Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 green was getting used everytime he was on the field over the last 2 years. he was still superfast but he wasn't strong enough to make tackles against bigger recievers. due to lack of playing time he was making mistakes that he didn't normally make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYC Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Apparently you don't understand what "next year" means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Originally posted by NYC Apparently you don't understand what "next year" means. Apparently your grasp on reality is tenuous at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Originally posted by CrankyTodd Apparently you have a rather peculiar definition of "winner". I think he just misspelled it. I'm sure he meant to say whiner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Originally posted by Cleotis green was getting used everytime he was on the field over the last 2 years. he was still superfast but he wasn't strong enough to make tackles against bigger recievers. due to lack of playing time he was making mistakes that he didn't normally make. Riiiiiight. Did you watch him pin David Boston to the sidelines last year? He took that boy to school and out of the game. The only reason Green wasn't farther up on the depth chart was because we were trying to bring along the young guys. He might not have been a #1 or #2 CB last year, but he was the best third CB in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kleese Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Really, WHO would cover the better WR's next year? I mean, in late game situations this year, QB's haven't been able to find their WR's because our coverage has been so great. Really, it's not like Amani Toomer, Joe Horn, and Steve Smith haven't made back-breaking plays against us or anything. Folks, Champ is OVER-RAT-ED. He is not bad, as a matter of fact, he is quite good-- I can accept he's a solid pro bowl level CB most years. However, he is NOT game changer. He is NOT a shut-down CB in the Green/Deion mold, he is NOT making this team any better. He is NOT worth what he will get. Remember, our problem isn't just the players we know aren't good, it's the ones we THINK are good as well. I prefer Smoot. He won't blanket guys as consistently as Champ, but I trust him more late in the game, and I certainly believe he has a better nose for the ball. And I think Smoot is a fighter. Never once has he bemoaned what situation HE is in. Smoot is always accountable and IMO, dedicated to the Redskins. Champ hints at things, and makes mini-threats, etc...... if we're 8-4 and he's doing that, I might listen. But this is a 4-8 team. Yeah, like I'm going to lose sleep over Champ freakin' Bailey when we're 4-8. Give me a break. I think we'll be making a HUGE mistake to resign Champ. Even if he reduced his cost, I'd still want to trade. I think we can get at least one first rounder for him, and that's all I'd need. Trade him for a first and we'll say a fourth. For arguement's sake, we'll say the first is #15 overall. Then, you have approx. the #8 and #15 picks in the draft. You sign a serviceable veteran CB to pair with Smoot, and you probably draft another one somewhere in the early/middle rounds. With those first two picks, you take TWO defensive linemen, unless some other player is a just a can't miss. Then next year you have two rookie first round DL, Smoot, a new vet CB, and whatever FA's we might add. Plus, you get rid of whatever financial constraints Champ would have brought. It's a no brainer, IMO. If Champ is here next year, our FO made a mistake, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Washington Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Riiiiiight. Did you watch him pin David Boston to the sidelines last year? He took that boy to school and out of the game. The only reason Green wasn't farther up on the depth chart was because we were trying to bring along the young guys. He might not have been a #1 or #2 CB last year, but he was the best third CB in the NFL. yea i saw that. i was actually at that game. he did a good job. but did you see when smoot (or champ) got hurt in the dallas thanksgiving game and bailey got juked out of his shoes and had to draw a PI to stop the madness. now those was just one example, i'm not saying green is the worst cb ever but i don't think he would have performed better than bailey this year. I think we'll be making a HUGE mistake to resign Champ. Even if he reduced his cost, I'd still want to trade. I think we can get at least one first rounder for him, and that's all I'd need. i don't. though champ has been pretty average this year, he needs to be on this team. no matter who we draft at DT or DE the chances are EXTREMELY slim that he will come in and dominate for 16games so we going to need all the help we can get at DB. now if we wants to be the highest paid corner in the league, he needs to walk but otherwise i don't see him going anywhere unless someone wants to give up 2 #1's and 1st and 3rd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just skins baby Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 I said it before, we lost with Champ and we can lose without him. At this point I would rather spread some of his money around to fill some holes that to give a bank busting contract to Champ. If he comes back next year I will certainly cheer him on, but if he doesn't I don't feel it's a great big loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimboDaMan Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 I'm kinda with kleese. I disagree that Champ's that overrated - with absolutely zippy pass rush this year there's not a soul who'd look great back there, and that includes Darrell and Deion in their prime. Add to that the fact that Champ's playing injured and overall I'm very happy with his play this year. But, if $55mil or whatever Snyder offered is not enough, then let him go. Use that money to find a pass rush - and take a look at FA as well as the first round of the draft. I for one do not view last offseason FA strategy as a failed experiment, in fact for the most part it was highly successful. One solid pass rusher in FA and a beast in the draft and I'm more than happy. What makes this possible is the surprising emergence of Fred Smoot. I'm just flat amazed at the combination of talent and toughness he's shown this year. After last year I was convinced he didn't have it in him. Now he's talking about assuming a more vocal leadership role. If he can do all that, and we can use Champ's allocation for a good - not great - pass rush, this team will be much improved even with the loss of Bailey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 We lose this week and we might as well put jimoh out there for some reps. The kid has good size and speed but needs to get that bump at the line if he isnt going to play off a lil. Champ is more than likely playing with additional injuries which is what you espect from players. I'd love to keep him but not at the expense of his salary costing us in upgrading the d line. As far as trying to compare D Green in his twilight to champ what is the point of that and d green had to deal with a lack of a pass rush also. Darrrell will always be mr redskins because he was and still is with the community while champ is never here so I dont think he will be missed unless some clueless ie stupid fans think we should go beyond 18 million in Signing bonus money when there isnt another team that will do it. Can we use the transition tag with a tender that nets us a first and third? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeSkin Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 No CB in the NFL can blanket a top-flight WR for 4 or 5 seconds. I think we're being unfair to Champ; he's earned his reputation for a reason. He has never played on a team with a consistent pass rush and has still been able to neutralize a number of recievers. We have to keep in mind that our pass rush, which is quite possibly one of the most inept in NFL history, brings the entire defense down. That compounded with Champ's injuries which are probably far worse than most believe make for a bad year. We think our defense is a joke with him; wait till he leaves. Our secondary will be abused. Smoot on the #1 wideout and a rookie or Bauman on the #2. Champ will most likely leave and be extremely successful somewhere else. I hope that we'll invest the money in something worthwhile like the D-line. Our current pass rush and a Champless secondary would be an absolute train wreck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGCHILL_02 Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Hey everyone i'm new here but i just had to add my 2 cents. i think champ is a very good player but he is no way worth the money he is askin for. i think smoot could do fine at checking the #1 reciever. do u guys remember last year he and champ rotoated on checking the #1 so it is not like he has never done it. and last year when we played the 49er's he was checking terell owens and basically shut him down... so i am confident that he can do it. so i say keep champ at a reasonable price but if he wants to go let him go... we will do fine with 2 first rounders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cskin Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 i don't. though champ has been pretty average this year, he needs to be on this team. This is exactly what is wrong with this organization. It believes the hype placed on players of the team, an OPINION instead of tangible evidence on the field. Regardless of Champ's injuries, he has been exposed for what he truly is as a DB. Great athleticism and physical talent, but a lack of awareness that leads to opposing receivers baiting him into mistakes that cost the team BIG. He's been abused on double moves this year, from Toomer to Horn... and the same can be said last year with Galloway...Toomer... and others. The F.O. needs to stop reading the press clippings and look at the game tape, Champ Bailey is a superior athlete that lacks the intangibles (awareness... heart to make a big play) to be a true elite corner. If nothing else his hands have been exposed... he rarely catches the football eventhough it hits him in the hands. Heck... he couldn't hold on to punts or reverses last year!!!! The money proposed for his salary/bonus could be better served upgrading the DL. Additionally, giving HALF of his money to a FA CB like Antione Winfield might go along way towards putting the Redskins in position to contend for the Super Bowl title. WHomever said something about Jimoh... is right. The kid is green as grass but scouts love his measureables and think he could be a solid corner in this league. He needs to get on the field more... if nothing else than to gain experience in what NOT to do from the CB position. Sit Champ, tell him it's to prevent him from being injured while in the midst of salary negotiations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 People point to the lack of pass rush as a reason receivers are open. People aren't wrong to suspect that's it. In fact, there is a ton of truth to it. Yet, we have a pass rush better than two years ago where Bailey and Smoot were excellent in coverage after five games when Marty made the change to more man coverages. Last year we actually had a high number of sacks. Surprisingly, if you go back and watch the games, we're actually getting more consistent pressure THIS year somehow. Just not the sacks. The last few weeks, since Carolina, the defensive line has generated very good pressure up front. And on a number of those plays Bailey has been beaten. Remember, the Smith play against Carolina was with Delhomme getting hit after two seconds. The play Bailey gave up against Seattle was the same. On and on it goes. Bailey really has only given up one major big play -- at least a ball that he allowed to be caught instead of interference -- when the defensive line was no where near the QB. That was against Toomer of the Giants. Bailey is the No. 1 corner on this team. He covers the better player much of the time. He is on the field in the big sets. Smoot is having a better year though, and he also is covering the top receiver a good part of the time out there. This is the part people aren't recognizing. He IS covering the No. 1 guy often. He's just not giving up any catches against them so far. Bailey is in a slump. No doubt about it. With him we're a much better team than without him. But, without him, I'm not sure we'd be in a much different situation than we are now. Smoot would probably not move right over to the No. 1 guy. He's probably stay on one side of the field. He'd probably have the responsibility of taking whoever it is that's out there away. The defense would have to roll in coverage on the other side. Kind of like the years Dallas was out there. Deion didn't actually flop sides all the time. He played the outside man on his side most of the time. I still want Bailey back. I just think he's actually our second best corner today. He's got the potential to play better and change that. He just hasn't this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atloldskin Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Guys, give me a break! Champ is a player no doubt. He has not played great this year; he has been hurt. The only question is how much do we pay him to stay. If it is too much; you franchise him and wait to see if another team wants him bad enough. Stephen Davis was a player; he just did not fit on this team at $10+ million per year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 I'm beginning to believe that Champ's not so hot play this year can be attributed to the fact that he has been banged up all year long. However, that doesn't change the fact that he wants more money than we can afford to give up... Winfield, McAllister... these guys are good corners as well. I'd rather see Champ back, but if he doesn't come back and we get one of the aforementioned, I will be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 Originally posted by BIGCHILL_02 Hey everyone i'm new here but i just had to add my 2 cents. i think champ is a very good player but he is no way worth the money he is askin for. i think smoot could do fine at checking the #1 reciever. do u guys remember last year he and champ rotoated on checking the #1 so it is not like he has never done it. and last year when we played the 49er's he was checking terell owens and basically shut him down... so i am confident that he can do it. so i say keep champ at a reasonable price but if he wants to go let him go... we will do fine with 2 first rounders Smoot wasn't checking Owens for most of that game, that was Champ. And Smoot had his worst season last year, and when he was getting burnt, it was by the other team's best reciever. No, I don't think he's proven he could shutdown a #1 reciever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 Champ is not the second best corner on this team. Someone with a TiVo needs to breakdown every defensive play and see how Champ is matched up with and who Smoot is. Didn't Edwards say Champ was shadowing the best reciever this season? I've only rarely seen Smoot on the best reciever, and I don't mean whether he gives up a play to them, I mean when their lining up for the play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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