Game of Thrones Season 8

[Forehead]

27 minutes ago, PF Chang said:

Three 80 minute episodes of everyone vs. Cersei and Euron is boring. How is this going to work, and why does it need 3 long episodes?  

 

I still expect them to reveal that the Three Eyed Raven is the Lord of Light, and sending the visions in the flames brought everyone to exactly where they needed to be, like Bran alludes to Theon. But I thought that would happen at the end of the series and simultaneous to the NK situation being resolved. 

 

I'm guessing Cersei is resolved by Episode 5 or at least really early in Episode 6.  There has to be some time devoted to wrapping things up and deciding who is in charge once it is all over.  Or they could go the Lord of the Rings way and have 45 minutes of hobbits playing on a bed while Gandalf smiles at them like an old pervert.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

Also to the idea that no one important died, my wife was in literal hysterics over the deaths - especially Jorah. I briefly thought that I would have to turn the show off.

I believe I heard a statistic that Theon and Jorah were something like 7 and 9 respectively in screen time for the show. 

 

I think folks wanted an "A" character death.  To my mind, the remaining "A" characters left are: Cercei, Jamie, Jon, Danny, Tyrian, Sansa, Arya, Bran. 

As a note, I think we've lost 8 "A" characters in the run of the show: Ned, Rob, Cat, Joffrey, Tywin, Stanis, the high septon and Ramsey.  You could make arguments for Margary and Olena, though I think they were both "B" characters.  Also note, the ONLY "A" character that died in a battle was Stanis.  Otherwise, they all died in some place where they felt safe.  

 

We lost 4 "B' level characters in this episode: Jorah, Theon, Melisandra and Berick. 

 

Other "B" level characters we did not lose: Sam, Brienne, The Hound, Grey Worm and Davos. I guess Pod and Lord Royce are a "B" characters, maybe.  The other "B" characters are with Cercei, and not even part of the fight, like the Mountain, Eron, Bron and Caiburn (however you spell that). Yara is off somewhere and not around eitherif she would be considered a "B" character.  

 

And this comes back to my overall point that the show did not want to kill off an "A" character in the fight with the Night King because the intrigue between them and with Cercei is MUCH higher. 

 

Things I am  interested in going forward, and was interested in going into season 8: How Jon and Danny resolve their relationship now they know they are related, and Jon has a claim to the iron throne.  I'm really interested to see how the other northerners react to that news.  For this to happen, Jon, Danny, Sansa, Arya and probably Lord Royce (as the analog for all other northern lords)  have to survive.  I'd really like to see how Tyrian takes this news, and what he could do with it.  Kindof the same with Davos. To me, this is extremely compelling.  The upcoming Sansa and Danny conversations about the north are compelling.  Sansa and Jon conversations are compelling. Arya and Jon will be compelling.  Killing any of these characters in the battle against the Night King would just be unsatisfying.  

 

I'm interested in seeing how the Cercei plot line resolves itself, and I really want to see Jamie and Tyrian tyr and take down Cercei.  That's compelling.  

 

I could honestly give or take Clegain Bowl, however that is a long running plot line, from season 1, so having the hound die at the hands of a WW would have been extremely unsatisfying.  

 

The only "A" character I think they could have killed would have been Bran, because now nobody really cares about Bran and he has nothing to really do.  But killing Bran would have meant the Night King would have won.  That said, if somehow BOTH Bran and the Night King would have died, I would have been absolutely fine with that.  Paint it as both the Gods of good and even killed each other.  Or some fantasy thing like that.  I don't know any show-watchers who are really invested in Bran emotionally.  However, having Bran BE the Night King and have some crazy Terminator style time travel would have also been hokey.  So I'm glad they didn't do that.

 

Now, onto the "B" level characters.  Could they have bid adieu to any of them?  Yes.  However, I'd much prefer to see them continue their roles as advisers and supporters, because they are good characters and have meaning.  The one I thought they were going to ff was Grey Worm.  But they didn't, and I'm fine with that. 

 

So in all, I'm really happy they didn't kill off the characters I care about in a plot line I didn't care about.  The army of the dead wasn't interesting.  Could it have been interesting? Maybe.  However, it wasn't.  It was just an existential threat which needed to be resolve.

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

35 minutes ago, PF Chang said:

Three 80 minute episodes of everyone vs. Cersei and Euron is boring. How is this going to work, and why does it need 3 long episodes?  

 

I still expect them to reveal that the Three Eyed Raven is the Lord of Light, and sending the visions in the flames brought everyone to exactly where they needed to be, like Bran alludes to Theon. But I thought that would happen at the end of the series and simultaneous to the NK situation being resolved. 

We have no idea what's to come in the next 3 episodes.  They could off Cercei in episode 5 and have episode 6 be a fight between Jon and Danny.

 

The fact is we have NO IDEA what's coming minus the 20 seconds we saw in the trailer.  

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Theon has been in every episode since Episode 1 and had the most dramatic arc of anyone - even more so than Jamie. I think he's an A character all the way. He's also probably the best actor on the show. (I have a theory that the had him and Kit Harrington in the same pile and decided that they needed the better actor for Theon).

 

Jorah has been in every episode, I think, since #2 and really is the only thing that made Dany's storyline make sense because his job was to say "Khaleesi, the squatters of the Penis lands are not to be trifled with."

 

Also, he's a really good actor too.

 

I also think the idea that Martin kills off main characters is highly over-stated, because I think the three main characters have probably always been the Lannister sibling and we never noticed it. I'm really trying to judge this by story arcs, and those three have traveled the most emotional distance in this show. Robb and Dany are basically the same people they've been since Episode 1 of Season 2. Their arcs were over then, though their "stories" had just begun.

 

Star Wars really became the story of Darth Vader in ROTJ. No one thought that beforehand. In the same way, this is the story of the Lannisters and everything else has been pomp and circumstance.

 

(Having said that about the Lannisters, the one expendable main character right now is Tyrion. Unless he has some incredibly brilliant scheme up his sleeve, I really feel like his story has played out. He and Cersei have nowhere to go that can't be far better done with Jamie and Cersei. As I still feel like the redemption of Jamie is the ultimate end here, he killing Cersei after she kills Tyrion and becoming hand of the king/queen is really kind of interesting and beautiful. The story of Jamie and Tywin was always Tywin wanting Jamie to take his place. Well, Hand to a Targaryan ruler does that, doesn't it?)

 

I think this is the fundamental difference. I was DREADING a 90 minute White Walker episode. I don't care about that plot at all except I know it had to be taken off the board at some point. I was rather amazed at how invested I was in the episode considering I had zero expectations for it. Now, if you told me the next episode was the Lannister siblings having dinner for 90 minutes, I would give all my children Benadryl and lock the dogs outside. Or vice versa. Because that is a spicy meatball.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[Forehead]

My question based on the earlier post is, are there any C characters, or are we just working with A and B here?

 

Given LKB's fascination with Hot Pie, I have to assume A+ is also an acceptable designation.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

2 minutes ago, Forehead said:

My question based on the earlier post is, are there any C characters, or are we just working with A and B here?

 

Given LKB's fascination with Hot Pie, I have to assume A+ is also an acceptable designation.

 

A+  - Hot Pie, Ser Pounce, and maybe the big-ass Wilding

[Riggo-toni]

[purbeast]

@Voice_of_Reason what level would you put Little Finger in?  I noticed you didn't have him in there.  I would definitely put him as an "A" character.

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 minutes ago, purbeast said:

@Voice_of_Reason what level would you put Little Finger in?  I noticed you didn't have him in there.  I would definitely put him as an "A" character.

That's a good question.  He's definitely an "A" character in that he put most of the Game of Thrones side of the story in motion by offing John Aryn and then blaming the Lannisters.  So add 1.  And also note that Petr (Petr Please.....) also died in a non-battle episode, when he actually thought he had won and the stark girls were going to fight, and then WHAM, he got his throat cut. 

 

There might be another one out there I can't remember.  Good catch.  

 

Edit: Varys WAS an A character at one point, I think he's now a C character.  He hasn't done anything since Season 6 worth noting.  

Edited May 3, 2019 by Voice_of_Reason

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

(Having said that about the Lannisters, the one expendable main character right now is Tyrion. Unless he has some incredibly brilliant scheme up his sleeve, I really feel like his story has played out. He and Cersei have nowhere to go that can't be far better done with Jamie and Cersei.

 

I agree with this 100% and it's why I was sure he was dying last week. He has completely run his course...he wasn't going to be the war hero and there can always be another hand to the queen/king. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Forehead said:

My question based on the earlier post is, are there any C characters, or are we just working with A and B here?

 

Given LKB's fascination with Hot Pie, I have to assume A+ is also an acceptable designation.

C characters currently alive?  Is Missandei a "B" or a "C"?  She appears to kiss Grey Worm here and there and read out Danny's titles "titles, titles titles." That's about it.  

 

Some of the Umbers and Carstarks are "C" characters.  The dude who leads the golden company who we've seen for 30 seconds is probably a "C" character. The group of Iron Borne who were with Theon were "C" characters. We recognized them and one of them fought Theon, so they actually are real characters not extras. 

 

For knowing, the sandsnakes were "F" characters, may they all rest in peace.  

 

A couple "B" death's worth mentioning as well, Lysa Aryn being pushed out of the moon door by Little Finger came kindof out of knowhere and was shocking.  Also, and I don't really remember exactly how they set it up, but the death of Fat King Rob was certainly noteworthy.  I actually debate Fat King Rob as an "A" or "B" character.  Probably an "A character.

 

Walder Frey, definitely a "B" character, I think he appeared in a grand total of like 4 episodes, but had a big role to play.  And then Arya got him good out of nowhere.  

 

EDIT: I can't believe nobody mentioned that we also lost Leanna Mormont, another "B" character in this episode.  

[PF Chang]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

We have no idea what's to come in the next 3 episodes.  They could off Cercei in episode 5 and have episode 6 be a fight between Jon and Danny.

 

The fact is we have NO IDEA what's coming minus the 20 seconds we saw in the trailer.  

 

Yeah they've done a good job with that. I really have no idea where it's going.

 

And OK I get that in this thread you are a nerd if you like the fantasy aspects of this fantasy story. And so it's fine if they just take an axe to it in the script. But I'm having trouble caring about the stakes of Good Guys vs Cersei again. 

 

Martin seems to endorse the idea that the White Walkers are basically a climate change allegory, and everyone is going to have to band together or die. Cersei's strategy of ignoring this and hoping everything works out appears to have paid off. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I also think the idea that Martin kills off main characters is highly over-stated, because I think the three main characters have probably always been the Lannister sibling and we never noticed it. I'm really trying to judge this by story arcs, and those three have traveled the most emotional distance in this show. Robb and Dany are basically the same people they've been since Episode 1 of Season 2. Their arcs were over then, though their "stories" had just begun.

I'm not sure I agree with this.  I also don't think Cercei has changed a lot since season 1.  She's basically the same murderous, power hungry person she was in the opener when she basically pleaded with Jamie to toss Bran out the window to now.  She just has less hair.  

 

Jamie is the character who has changed the most in the show. He was basically public enemy #1 for several seasons, now he's somewhat cherished. I agree with this.  

 

The only character who changed more was Theon, who went Theon to Reek back to Theon (somewhat). But now he's dead.  

 

Sansa has also changed a tremendous amount.  She was just a stupid, stupid STUPID girl at the beginning, and now she's one of the most practical and smartest players of the game.  Even if I think she should probably give Danny a break.  

 

Danny went from a refugee to a slave, to a khalesee to a queen.  Though she's basically been a queen since season 2 or 3.  I think she's changed somewhat, but not as much.

 

Jon hasn't changed.  He's the same dude he's always been. 

 

Arya is a tough case.  I think she changed, but her change was less a change and more of just a heightening of who she already was.  Gendry is one freaking lucky dude.  

 

I don't think it's the story of the Lanisters.  I think it's the story of Jon, at least from the GRRM perspective.  Jon IS the song of Ice and Fire.  Stark and Targarian.  

 

And I think in the end he ends up on the Iron Throne because of it, and has to fight Danny for it.  I don't know how that's set up, but I think he determines she's not worthy, and then that's what happens.  Which would be the bittersweet ending.  

 

The rainbow and unicorns ending is that Danny and Jon get married, unite the North and South, kill Cercei, and then rule in peace.  That won't happen in this show, even though it's the most obvious solution to all the problems.  Oh, and Sansa is the hand.  Because she can actually run stuff. 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 minutes ago, PF Chang said:

 

Yeah they've done a good job with that. I really have no idea where it's going.

 

And OK I get that in this thread you are a nerd if you like the fantasy aspects of this fantasy story. And so it's fine if they just take an axe to it in the script. But I'm having trouble caring about the stakes of Good Guys vs Cersei again. 

 

Martin seems to endorse the idea that the White Walkers are basically a climate change allegory, and everyone is going to have to band together or die. Cersei's strategy of ignoring this and hoping everything works out appears to have paid off. 

There's nothing wrong with being a nerd, and there's nothing wrong with liking the fantasy elements of the story, and to those people who really like fantasy, I can absolutely see why the last episode was massively disappointing.

 

My point is that the show really wasn't a fantasy show, it was a medieval monarchy drama with magic.  Kindof like a super charged Princess Bride.  

 

If you REALLY like the fantasy elements like LOTR, and other fantasy stories, the TV aspect of this was never going to live up to expectations.  Because the casual fan just doesn't care about that aspect of the show as much as the palace intrigue with tits and dragons.  That's just fact.  

 

For all the folks who just hate this episode and where the story is going, I really hope George finishes the books, and that is a more satisfying ending.  I think it will be for that community.  I also think the story in the books basically from the point it leaves off, which I understand is roughly the end of season 5, to the end might be entirely different than the show.  It could be two completely different stories.

 

My hope for the book readers is that George hates what has happened to his story by the show runners, and does the only thing he can really do to fix it: finish the damn books.

 

I won't read them, but it would make a lot of people happy.  

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

41 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I'm not sure I agree with this.  I also don't think Cercei has changed a lot since season 1.  She's basically the same murderous, power hungry person she was in the opener when she basically pleaded with Jamie to toss Bran out the window to now.  She just has less hair.  

 

 

You are thinking of "change" too literally.

 

If you put "isolation on the x axis and "power" on the y axis, Cersei has moved an incredibly far distance.

 

She started as married to the king, screwing her brother with her father as the real power in the kingdom. She had her three children as well. But in all that, she was rather powerless.

 

Now, she is the Queen. And everyone is gone.

 

Her inner circle is Dr Frankenstein and, um, Frankenstein. And a gay pirate, I guess.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[Momma There Goes That Man]

3 hours ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

o you're seeking credibility. But you want the zombies to win and replenish their forces with all the dead at Winterfell.....and then, I guess, have Arya stab the guy since there is no reasonable way to beat a gazillion ice zombies in a military setting.

 

Not sure what you mean. Im not seeking credibility. Doesn’t have to be how I outlined, there are a hundred different scenarios that could play out that would pay off the things they’ve introduced, told

us were important and built up for the entire series which is what I am seeking. 

 

3 hours ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

The story ALWAYS ends with someone killing the Night King and everything being over. You just want two or three battles of zombies instead of one.

 

Sure but there is a level of importance that should be given to this moment and this did not do it. In fact, they cheapened the previous seasons by not paying off the threat of the WW and the long night. 

 

3 hours ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

Also, they did defeat the greatest army the world has ever known. Rather easily.

 

But they lost within a couple of hours and part of that defeat was due to the writers desire to cripple Dany’s overpowered army so they made them stupid like the opening Dothraki charge. That’s not a satisfying or well written battle and story. 

 

3 hours ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I would also argue that Jon has never really won a battle.

 

I agree. But he always finds a way, even when it isn’t his doing. And in that scenario above, he wouldn’t. He would have to retreat. Admit defeat. And there would actually be important deaths too, not counting your wife’s love for Jorah. Sure, he’s handsome and has a nice voice. He is nearly irrelevant to the landscape of Westeros. 

 

3 hours ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I would also point out that your storyline has the WW pretty much wiping out all of Westeros before they are defeated, which is dark. In the end, the King/Queen of the Seven Kingdoms would be ruling an empty continent).

 

 

Which actually fits in line with the tone of the story to this point. And you’d have people escape and survive. The population would be crushed though which would present an opportunity to build a new and better world and breaking the wheel as has often been spoken of in the story. We now actually have a reason for it. And it pays off a central idea of the series which is that humanity is too busy with their trivial differences and petty squabbles to actually address the threat facing them until it is too late. We survive in the end but st a cost for our mistakes .

[DCSaints_fan]

Another curveball would have been for the army of the dead / NK to completely bypass Winterfell and head south.    Or perhaps they attack Winterfell by really only as a feint. 

 

But as I said before, we don't know how the story ends.  For all we know there could be more AotDs/NKs out there.

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by DCSaints_fan

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

1 hour ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

 

Which actually fits in line with the tone of the story to this point. And you’d have people escape and survive. The population would be crushed though which would present an opportunity to build a new and better world and breaking the wheel as has often been spoken of in the story. We now actually have a reason for it. And it pays off a central idea of the series which is that humanity is too busy with their trivial differences and petty squabbles to actually address the threat facing them until it is too late. We survive in the end but st a cost for our mistakes .

 

I don't think that's the tone at all. The show has shown a very harsh world and a cruel world, but it's never had the philosophy that life is pointless. If anything, Dany's storyline from Day One has been about using power to create a better world.

 

That may not ultimately occur, but I don't think anyone sees the end game of someone being the ruler of a country of corpses.

 

And I just fundamentally disagree with you that the show has been building to this singular moment. It's always been the one thing that everyone would eventually have to reckon with. But it's never been what the show was primarily about.

 

To paraphrase a friend, there is a difference between a plot and a plot device.

[Cooked Crack]

14 minutes ago, DCSaints_fan said:

Another curveball would have been for the army of the dead / NK to completely bypass Winterfell and head south.    Or perhaps they attack Winterfell by really only as a feint. 

 

Why though? The Night King shouldn't care about the throne. If they went that route it would be obvious that it's only cause it's TV. Night King don't care about Cersei. 

[PF Chang]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

There's nothing wrong with being a nerd, and there's nothing wrong with liking the fantasy elements of the story, and to those people who really like fantasy, I can absolutely see why the last episode was massively disappointing.

 

My point is that the show really wasn't a fantasy show, it was a medieval monarchy drama with magic.  Kindof like a super charged Princess Bride.  

 

If you REALLY like the fantasy elements like LOTR, and other fantasy stories, the TV aspect of this was never going to live up to expectations.  Because the casual fan just doesn't care about that aspect of the show as much as the palace intrigue with tits and dragons.  That's just fact.  

 

For all the folks who just hate this episode and where the story is going, I really hope George finishes the books, and that is a more satisfying ending.  I think it will be for that community.  I also think the story in the books basically from the point it leaves off, which I understand is roughly the end of season 5, to the end might be entirely different than the show.  It could be two completely different stories.

 

My hope for the book readers is that George hates what has happened to his story by the show runners, and does the only thing he can really do to fix it: finish the damn books.

 

I won't read them, but it would make a lot of people happy.  

 

I actually really liked the episode. It doesn't matter if the plot doesn't go the way I think it should, the Reddit people are doing the typical overreaction of "everything is RUINED." I'll wait until it's over to complain, there could be more to the NK than what we saw.

 

I hear you on two different stories, but Martin has said the end will basically be the same. I don't think he has a reason to be dishonest about that, if anything he'd want to emphasize differences to sell more books. 

 

The director, Sapochnik, is just awesome. The composer is great - everything about the end scene in the godswood had me hooked. 

 

 

I forgot about Ser Pounce and searched him. Fine, I'm invested again, Cersei must go:

 

“Cersei hated the name ‘Ser Pounce’ so much she could not allow him to survive,” showrunner David Benioff tells EW. “So she came up with her most diabolical [execution]. Ser Pounce’s death was so horrible we couldn’t even put it on the air.”

[Momma There Goes That Man]

17 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I don't think that's the tone at all. The show has shown a very harsh world and a cruel world, but it's never had the philosophy that life is pointless. If anything, Dany's storyline from Day One has been about using power to create a better world.

 

I didn’t say anything about life being pointless. The tone as in harsh, brutal and dark which humanity failing to unite to face an existential threat because we can’t get beyond our trivial differences and desires thus leaving a completely altered world for some of our favorite characters to rebuild and remake better than before is pretty in line to me with the entire show. 

 

 

[DCSaints_fan]

31 minutes ago, Cooked Crack said:

Why though? The Night King shouldn't care about the throne. If they went that route it would be obvious that it's only cause it's TV. Night King don't care about Cersei. 

 

I can think of a few possible justifications for it: 

 

- Winterfell was too well defended and the south was an easier target.

 

- A powerful object/knowledge/person was needed somewhere in the South.

 

- Draw armies away from Winterfell and ambush them out in the open if they follow.

 

- The Night King was really just misunderstood and was tired of the gloomy weather in the North and has been looking just to catch a tan the whole time

Edited May 3, 2019 by DCSaints_fan

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

28 minutes ago, PF Chang said:

 

 

 

“Cersei hated the name ‘Ser Pounce’ so much she could not allow him to survive,” showrunner David Benioff tells EW. “So she came up with her most diabolical [execution]. Ser Pounce’s death was so horrible we couldn’t even put it on the air.”

 

That's the single worst thing the show runners have done. I want them punished.

[Voice_of_Reason]

For about 5 minutes when Tomen was boffing Margary repeatedly and he had Ser Pounce as his his best friend, he was really living his best life.  

 

Then ... things turned bad and escalated quickly.

 

he gets a perfect 10 for his form throwing himself out the window though...

[Barry.Randolphe]

 

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

For about 5 minutes when Tomen was boffing Margary repeatedly and he had Ser Pounce as his his best friend, he was really living his best life.  

 

Then ... things turned bad and escalated quickly.

 

he gets a perfect 10 for his form throwing himself out the window though...

 

i don't blame him for jumping....you're not going to get better biscuits than Margaery's