Voice_of_Reason

Game of Thrones Season 8

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8 minutes ago, Nerm said:

With all of the glowing reviews of Madmen, I may have to try watching it.  I think I watched the first episode (or at least part of it) several years ago.  From what I remember, it seemed like a bunch of guys in suits having boring conversations.  Is it a series that takes a while to get interesting, or does it hook you in the first few episodes?

 

I was hooked right away and the first episode has some great moments that really pulled me in especially the ending and the scene i've posted below. The life of these 1960s New York ad men living as kings right as the world began to change forever. The show is a reflection of modern society through the prism of the 60s. The sets, outfits, acting, soundtrack and writing are all incredible. But the series is entirely people in rooms talking. This isn't the show for action. It's all character study and drama. Flawed people going about their lives dealing with coworkers and family and the evolving society around them. For somebody young, it was fascinating seeing these events before my time like the moon landing and Kennedy assassination play out in other people. I was immediately sucked into the time period. The show is entirely narrative character driven. It doesn't rely on flash or even twists in the story. It relies on the quality of the characters and what they are doing/saying.

 

The ad pitches are really great too as are the inner workings of the business and dealing with their clients that become part of their day to day. you feel the stakes with each pitch or business deal. Most episodes take place weeks and months apart so you have the chance to see how the characters change or not over time. 

 

The cast is truly extraordinary and they bring life and complexity to their characters so well that you love and hate them all at different points. It's anchored by Jon Hamm as Don Draper, one of the greatest TV characters ever. A brilliant ad man at the top of his craft, rich, ridiculously handsome, the world in the palm of his hands and yet there is that darkness, that mystery, that emptiness within him. 

 

It's the one show where I actually missed the people (not the show) when it was over. I was sad they wouldn't be in my life like friends moving away. We see so much of their lives over the course of the story, they leave an impact. And their flaws, desires, mistakes successes are handled more realistically than any show I've ever seen. It's probably the only show I would say is literal art. Just put it on a continuous reel and stick it in the Smithsonian already.

 

This is from the first episode so it's not really a spoiler just don't read the comments but it's a great example of the quality of dialogue and strength of characters that last until the end of the series. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, abdcskins said:

 

What is HMT?

 

The Handmaids Tale. Probably should have used a better acronym. 

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Posted (edited)

 

Quote

On his blog, titled An Ending, GRRM reminisces about his initial meeting with David Benioff and D.B. Weiss over a decade ago.  He remarks on how quickly that time has gone by and how little idea he had at the start that the show would become one of the most popular television series of all time.

 

He takes the time to thank some of the people involved in what he terms, “a wild ride, to say the least,” including the cast and crew, David and Dan, the team at HBO, headed up by Richard Plepler, and the wonderful Bryan Cogman, referring to him once again as “the third head of the dragon.”

 

GRRM goes on to discuss what future projects lie ahead for him and the showrunners.  This of course includes Star Wars for David and Dan, as well as what appears to be confirmation by GRRM of Bryan Cogman working on Amazon’s new Tolkien series! As well as finishing off the ASoIaF books, GRRM himself has eight(!) TV shows in development – five with HBO, two with Hulu, and one with the History Channel – numerous feature adaptations, and other new projects to keep him busy!

 

 

 

 

Quote

And I’m writing.   Winter is coming, I told you, long ago… and so it is.   THE WINDS OF WINTER is very late, I know, I know, but it will be done.  I won’t say when, I’ve tried that before, only to burn you all and jinx myself… but I will finish it, and then will come A DREAM OF SPRING.

 

How will it all end? I hear people asking.   The same ending as the show?  Different?

Well… yes.  And no.  And yes.   And no.   And yes.   And no.   And yes.

 

I am working in a very different medium than David and Dan, never forget.   They had six hours for this final season.   I expect these last two books of mine will fill 3000 manuscript pages between them before I’m done… and if more pages and chapters and scenes are needed, I’ll add them.   And of course the butterfly effect will be at work as well; those of you who follow this Not A Blog will know that I’ve been talking about that since season one.  

 

There are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet.   And yes, there will be unicorns… of a sort…

 

Book or show, which will be the “real” ending?   It’s a silly question.   How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have?

 

How about this?  I’ll write it.   You read it.  Then everyone can make up their own mind, and argue about it on the internet.

 

Edited by visionary
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Let me give you the definition of irony.

 

The message carried away in the finale is despite Dany's best of intentions, she gave into her nature and history repeated itself as the Mad King giving rise to a Mad Queen he never knew.

 

Now I hated the ending because despite plenty of foreshadowing, Dany's 180 felt hokey and forced because up until the last two episodes she was painted as a primary protagonist. 

      The closest comparison to this is Revenge of the Sith.  Anakin Skywalker's 180 in that movie felt hokey and forced because despite plenty of forshadowing, he was painted as a primary protagonist for 2 1/2 movies. It was terrible, GOT finale was terrible for the exact same reason.

    And now, the showrunners of GOT next project is Star Wars saga in 20twentysomething.  Now Star Wars most cursed history is doomed to repeat itself despite the best of intentions.

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I bet GRRM and his publisher hired ghostwriters to mimic his style and finish the series for him.  There is so much money to be made off of the final two books, why wouldn't they?  Enough time has passed since the last one was released that if there are detectable changes in style, they can be written off as evolution.

 

I don't think GRRM stopped writing ASOIAF because the story got away from him.  Series like this are intricately planned before the first book is published.  I think he stopped writing it because he lost his inspiration to go through with the daily grind of writing epic fantasy novels.  He's running a production company now, and he's figured out that it's a lot easier and he can make a lot more money and be a lot more popular by developing stories for TV networks rather than grinding out novels.

 

Lastly, GRRM is a genius who did something revolutionary in the High Fantasy genre--gave us a brutal and in depth meditation on medieval sociopolitics, monarchy, and war that we never knew we wanted before we read him.  And the result is something wildly popular in America, of all places.  And he attempted to modernize and adapt the heroic epic literary form to a current macro-historical view of history without heroes.  It's a shame that he left the popularization and eventually the telling of his story up to hacks.

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16 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

The ad pitches are really great too as are the inner workings of the business and dealing with their clients that become part of their day to day. you feel the stakes with each pitch or business deal. Most episodes take place weeks and months apart so you have the chance to see how the characters change or not over time. 

 

 

I hate to turn this into the Mad Men thread, but this scene is the one that hooked me for good...the pictures in his slide show contrasted with the actual events of his life and his obvious sadness make this scene so compelling to me. It's beautifully acted and wonderfully written...

 

 

 

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I dont know if anyone else has posted this yet. 

 

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32 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I hate to turn this into the Mad Men thread, but this scene is the one that hooked me for good...the pictures in his slide show contrasted with the actual events of his life and his obvious sadness make this scene so compelling to me. It's beautifully acted and wonderfully written...

 

Yeah that one brings me to tears, just immensely powerful in that moment. I was going to include it but didn't want NERM to see it prior to watching the first season. That one hits like a ton of bricks.

 

Quote

“Nostalgia – it’s delicate but potent. Teddy told me that in Greek, “nostalgia” literally means “the pain from an old wound.” It’s a twinge in your heart far more powerful than memory alone. This device isn’t a spaceship, it’s a time machine. It goes backwards, and forwards . . . it takes us to a place where we ache to go again. It’s not called the wheel. It’s called the carousel. It lets us travel the way a child travels – around and around, and back home again, to a place where we know we are loved.”

 

He knows what he has and why it should be enough for him. He longs for the catharsis of closing that old wound but he is incapable of making the changes needed to do so as he continues to move as a carousel, in circles without moving forward. And then we spend the rest of the series watching this and learning why he is so broken. 

 

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

@Momma There Goes That Man that delivery was perfect...this is the snip of that which gets me every time: 

 

"...it takes us to a place where we ache to go again."

 

Honestly the show would fall apart if Don wasn't actually so brilliant. You can't tell me he's the mozart of ad men and then not show me or the pitches you come up with are just ok. Fortunately,  the writing for all of these pitches and ideas is so great and intriguing that it makes it believable that he is so good at what he does and they play perfectly into the narrative at the moment, like the Hershey pitch.

 

3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I bet GRRM and his publisher hired ghostwriters to mimic his style and finish the series for him.  There is so much money to be made off of the final two books, why wouldn't they?  Enough time has passed since the last one was released that if there are detectable changes in style, they can be written off as evolution.

 

You seem pretty down on the books as well. Would you finish the series if they are released? 

Edited by Momma There Goes That Man
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12 hours ago, KevinthePRF said:

    The closest comparison to this is Revenge of the Sith.  Anakin Skywalker's 180 in that movie felt hokey and forced because despite plenty of forshadowing, he was painted as a primary protagonist for 2 1/2 movies. It was terrible, GOT finale was terrible for the exact same reason.

 

This is a pretty accurate comparison and made all the more disappointing because GOT had 70+ hours to show this descent correctly, or hell even starting with season 7 they had 15 hours. Star Wars had like 6. 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

Honestly the show would fall apart if Don wasn't actually so brilliant. You can't tell me he's the mozart of ad men and then not show me or the pitches you come up with are just ok. Fortunately,  the writing for all of these pitches and ideas is so great and intriguing that it makes it believable that he is so good at what he does and they play perfectly into the narrative at the moment, like the Hershey pitch. 

 

Yep. It's spectacular writing.  Showing and not telling.  Really complex interpersonal dynamics on display in Don's "I'm really ****ing good at this" scenes that leave everyone else floored.  The writers and directors and production people got really good at conveying these moments and the cast was always amazing.  Part of what makes it all work so well is that Jon Hamm is so handsome and compelling, in a classical way.  He casts the spell.  And the scenes themselves become deeply satisfying, in part because we want to see Don's position in the show and in the world as being justified by at least some kind of value/worth.

 

My favorite Mad Men episode of all is the one where Don reads the Frank O'Hara book of poetry.  I love seeing the halting way his beat sensibility awakens.  And the ending where he walks his dog and mails the book to Anna while Jon Hamm reads Mayakovsky in voice over gives me chills.  It was art transcending the medium.

 

Oooh, another one was the first episode of Season 2 when Don is sitting in that restaurant and there is a harpist playing Sadko's India Song by Rimsky Korsakov and the show overlays an orchestral version.  Betty walks down the staircase and Don is visibly moved by her beauty and you get this densely packed moment of emotions from Don ranging from smug swagger to pride to love and hope for redemption, all conveyed through music and his face.  It's incredible.

 

The show was poetry.

Edited by stevemcqueen1
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22 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

You seem pretty down on the books as well. Would you finish the series if they are released?  

 

I loved the books.  I didn't necessarily enjoy reading them by about midway through the fourth book.  I think you have to pace yourself with them because of how oppressive the content is.  But they're an achievement.  And I think GRRM is a special writer within the genre, with a great style and impressive vision.  I think I'd read them if he publishes them.  But I strongly suspect he's having them ghost written, and it really bothers me when a series of novels changes authors midstream.  I get really sensitive to an author's voice and it breaks the spell for me when it changes.

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34 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Yep. It's spectacular writing.  Showing and not telling.  Really complex interpersonal dynamics on display in Don's "I'm really ****ing good at this" scenes that leave everyone else floored.  The writers and directors and production people got really good at conveying these moments and the cast was always amazing.  Part of what makes it all work so well is that Jon Hamm is so handsome and compelling, in a classical way.  He casts the spell.  And the scenes themselves become deeply satisfying, in part because we want to see Don's position in the show and in the world as being justified by at least some kind of value/worth.

 

My favorite Mad Men episode of all is the one where Don reads the Frank O'Hara book of poetry.  I love seeing the halting way his beat sensibility awakens.  And the ending where he walks his dog and mails the book to Anna while Jon Hamm reads Mayakovsky in voice over gives me chills.  It was art transcending the medium.

 

Oooh, another one was the first episode of Season 2 when Don is sitting in that restaurant and there is a harpist playing Sadko's India Song by Rimsky Korsakov and the show overlays an orchestral version.  Betty walks down the staircase and Don is visibly moved by her beauty and you get this densely packed moment of emotions from Don ranging from smug swagger to pride to love and hope for redemption, all conveyed through music and his face.  It's incredible.

 

The show was poetry.

 

Posts like this make me wish I was a lot more intelligent haha.

 

I love the show - will probably rewatch again soon - but I definitely haven't picked up on half of the stuff you mention just in this one scene.

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6 minutes ago, Heisenberg said:

 

Posts like this make me wish I was a lot more intelligent haha.

 

I love the show - will probably rewatch again soon - but I definitely haven't picked up on half of the stuff you mention just in this one scene. 

 

Don't sell yourself short my friend.  You pick it up in the emotion that it makes you feel.  You don't have to spell it all out rationally to get it, it's sub-rational.  That is the communicative power and beauty of art.

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25 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

It was art transcending the medium.

 

That was all perfectly said. Those are both fantastic moments and we get scenes and callbacks like that so consistently it's almost hard to fathom. Don reading Dante's Inferno at the beginning of a particular season which is the season where he literally loses everything and ends the season confronting his own personal hell, his childhood home. 

 

It's just masterful. I'm going to have to watch it again. 

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11 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

This is a pretty accurate comparison and made all the more disappointing because GOT had 70+ hours to show this descent correctly, or hell even starting with season 7 they had 15 hours. Star Wars had like 6. 

 

Mario Puzo/Francis Ford Coppolla pulled off the same basic theme in about 6 hours of film.

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I get that people are dissatisfied, but there is no ****ing way the GoT finale was worse than Dexter or even Lost.

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