Voice_of_Reason

Game of Thrones Season 8

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12 hours ago, redskinss said:

Picture of Ramsey

 

Ok. Now here's the thing. I get why people may think/believe this... but let's open this up to inquiry :-)

 

Can we know for certain that Ramsey was pure evil? Was every action/decision of his evil? Or just the ones we know of :-) He was a **** child... and no matter how good of a son you were (ahem, Jon Snow), it wasn't a very privileged life. And if I remember correctly, he sought the approval of his dad repeatedly (winning battles on his behalf). The dude just wanted some love and validation from his old man... just like every one of us :-)

 

And I'm pretty sure.... we all LOVED the dude when he captured and tortured Theon Greyjoy -- after he ransacked the North castle (the Stark kingdom). I'd say he was the hero for a bit -- and was rather comical doing it :-) So, *purely* evil? I'd disagree.

Edited by Die Hard
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6 hours ago, Die Hard said:

Can we know for certain that Ramsey was pure evil? Was every action/decision of his evil? Or just the ones we know of :-)

None of his actions indicated to me that he may have been tutoring orphans off screen. 

That said if seeking the affection of a man whom you then brutally murder and  then feed (alive)  his wife and newborn child to dogs is the action of 99 percent evil I certainly don't want to meet 100 percent. 

 

 

 

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Ramsey was at least interesting. I've often thought he was based off of Cesare Borgia. He's evil, but also extremely conniving, as opposed to Joffrey, who was evil and ****ing stupid. Ramsey was brilliant at tactics, bad at strategy.

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Ramsey was a great villain. He was evil, but he had charisma and was interesting. Great shows need great villains and Ramsey certainly fit the billing. The actor is/was absolutely brilliant too.

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3 hours ago, redskinss said:

None of his actions indicated to me that he may have been tutoring orphans off screen. 

That said if seeking the affection of a man whom you then brutally murder and  then feed (alive)  his wife and newborn child to dogs is the action of 99 percent evil I certainly don't want to meet 100 percent. 

 

 

 

 

Right??!? Admittedly, he's right up there though. But I think if he would have been acknowledged by his father based on his loyalty and deeds, he may in fact have turned out completely different. He then went into survival mode. But someone taught him how to filet people.... that behaviour isn't innate :-)

 

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Ok, so for anybody who likes spoilers and intrigue, there is a lot of it at http://watchersonthewall.com/  I'm not going to re-post it, but if you like that kind of thing, check it out.

 

I thought since there's really nothing going on in GOT land, I might stir up a little conversation by a story I saw on WotW.  They did a ranking of kings/queens/rulers through the story.  A summary of their thoughts.:

 

Renly Baratheon: Incomplete.  Did some good things then killed by Stanis and Mel

Viserys Targaryen: F.  Pretty obvious, guy was a ****.

Joffrey Baratheon: F: Also pretty obvious, guy was a ****.

Robert Baratheon: D+: Essentially because he was absent, and spent all of his time drinking and whoring

Balon Greyjoy: D-: Pretty obvious, guy was a ****. The Greyjoy rebellion ended badly, he didn't have a lot of foresight, and then was thrown off a bridge

Tommen Baratheon: D: Basically couldn't control his psycho mother.

Cersei Lannister: C-: They ignored how she got the throne in their grade, but she managed to put down the faith militant (a problem of her own creation), and has tactically been pretty with it.  I think the C- is basically because she's psychotic and unpredictable .

Euron Greyjoy: C: Since he threw Balon off a bridge and took the salt throne from Yara, he's made a powerful alliance, and appeared everywhere using the Star Ship Enterprise.  

Jon Snow: C+: They point out the numerous mis-steps, (going north to capture a wight, being a bit of a fool at the battle of the ****s, etc.) but give him credit for creating an "alliance" with Danny.

Stannis Baratheon: B-: Pluses: he really does know how to lead.  Minuses: that whole Melisandre and burning people thing...

Robb Stark: B: Did really well as a young commander until he let the small head out-think the big-head and got himself, and essentially all of his bannermen, killed.  

Mance Rayder: A: United the Free Folk, almost took the wall.  Surrendered when victory wasn't possible, and died with principals.  

Daenerys Targaryen: A: Good intentions, doesn't over-use her dragons, frees slaves.  A little bit worried about her propensity to get her way by killing her way to it.  But eh, what you gonna do.

 

 

My opinion, I think most of this is pretty good.  I would adjust:

 

Balon Greyjoy to an F.  He was stubborn and stupid, got his sons killed, and the one who wasn't essentially taken prisoner by his enemy.  

 

Robert Baratheon to a solid C.  Yeah, so he really didn't do much of anything, and left John Aryn and company to run the kingdom. Which would have been totally fine except for Baelish undermining him and killing Aryn, which set everything else in motion.  Not a great guy, not a good king, but knew how to delegate and who to delegate to, and it would have worked except for Littlefinger.

 

Tommen to A+.  He got to bang Queen Margaery repeatably, and had a cat named Sir Pounce.  Sure, he was completely ineffectual, but he led a pretty great life until he jumped out that window. Let's be honestly, he was caught between his queen and his mother, and there was no way for him to win. So he got while the getting was good.  

 

Jon Snow to an A+.  For 3 reasons: 1. He came back from the dead. 2. He pummeled the living hell out of Ramsey's head. 3.  Ygritte in a cave, Danny on a boat.  Oh, and he's united the North, and for all his foibles, he's still alive (again), and generally makes the "right" decisions, even if they are going to cost him.  Can't wait to see him re-unite with Arya. (And if that doesn't happen, I quit.)

 

Danny: I upgrade her to an A+ as well.  She knows how to get what she wants at any cost.  She used her mind and body to turn Khal Drogo from essentially a raping savage into her husband.  Her people lover her, she frees slaves. And finally, if I'm going to give credit to Jon and Tommen for their conquests, she's conquered Drogo and Jon, probably the two most desirable men on the show. The only thing you might downgrade her for is she HAD 3 dragons.  Now she has 2. Ooops.  

 

They missed The Queen of Thorns.  I'd give her an A+ just for being the most bad-ass person in Westeros.  

 

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2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Robert Baratheon to a solid C.  Yeah, so he really didn't do much of anything, and left John Aryn and company to run the kingdom. Which would have been totally fine except for Baelish undermining him and killing Aryn, which set everything else in motion.  Not a great guy, not a good king, but knew how to delegate and who to delegate to, and it would have worked except for Littlefinger.

 

I'd give Whorin' Robert B. a solid B+ actually. He may not have been a great ruler in the traditional sense,  but during his rule, the kingdom was in a state of continual peace. He presided over a long, prosperous summer, and was smart enough to put qualified people on his council. He was strong and respected enough for all seven kingdoms to be on their best behavior. Overall, solid king.

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@ExoDus84 I debated going higher than a C for Robert. I could definitely go higher. As I said, he really didn’t do anything al that wrong, he got undercut by a combination of Baelish and Cersei. 

 

@Riggo-toni agreed.  And he even had a hot wife, especially when younger.  But he pined for another... kindof a tragic flaw..

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Bobby B was a quality King. Easily a B+ at the minimum. As mentioned above, he had 17 years of prosperity and for the most part peace. All was well in the realm. He was smarter than he was given credit for too. Had he not died, sending an assassin to stop Daenerys was a wise move given how events played out with her. He also knew they stood no chance against the Dothraki in an open field when other scoffed at the idea. 

 

Plus, I think of him as a tragic character. As far as he knew (the way it’s portrayed in the show) the woman he loved and the woman that loved him was taken by another man. He essentially started a war against a 1000 year denasty (as Tywin frustratingly pronounces it) and toppled it as a great warrior leading his men. But he was too late to save his beloved. And despite claiming the 7 kingdoms and all the power and wealth one could ever desire, he never found happiness. So he lost himself in alcohol and women trying to forget his pain. Sadly, this pain ultimately led to his betrayal and death as he was not enough to keep Cersei happy or attached enough to notice her affair with Jaime. 

 

This is one of my favorite coversations in the entire series, a series known for incredible dialogue and character interaction. 

 

 

 

Plus he was funny and his memory lives on in memes and quotes across the internet.

 

Come on watch this and tell me he’s a C

 

Edited by Momma There Goes That Man
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6 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Jon Snow to an A+.  For 3 reasons: 1. He came back from the dead. 2. He pummeled the living hell out of Ramsey's head. 3.  Ygritte in a cave, Danny on a boat.  Oh, and he's united the North, and for all his foibles, he's still alive (again), and generally makes the "right" decisions, even if they are going to cost him.  Can't wait to see him re-unite with Arya. (And if that doesn't happen, I quit.)

 

Jon is definitely an A+. Born a **** with no claim to anything. Treated like **** and a second rate family member his whole life. His adopted mom hated his guts. His home life is so awful that he willingly chooses to give up his entire life to live on a miserable hunk of ice and never have a family, have a wife or have any possessions. 

 

And within about 2-3 years I guess he becomes the only Crow to see the Wildling base camp and live to tell about it, engages in diplomacy and earns the respect of the wildling King Mance Rayder, scales the Wall, successfully goes on a suicide mission to avenge betrayed Crows, attempts to save 100,000 wildlings, looks into the heart of darkness the Night King’s eyes, kills a white walker in sword combat, becomes Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, is brutally murdered and is reborn, leads a victorious rebellion against the Warden of the North, is legitimized as King in the North for his leadership and heroics, earns the respect and love of Daenerys Targaryen, successful completes another suicide mission beyond the Wall in which he yet again kills a white walker and stares into the eyes of darkness and also captures a wight this time and tops it all off with some awesome boat sex with Daenerys.  

 

Started at the bottom now he here. I give him more credit than Daenerys since she still had her name and after a short time had dragons. Jon literally had nothing  

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@Momma There Goes That Man You make a compelling point in Bobby B.  I’ll raise my grade to a B, B+.  I do think he loses a few pints for not realizing that his wife (the queen for God’s sake) is boffing her brother and none of his heirs are legitimate.  I mean, it seemed like it was kind of a rumor, might want to check that one out.  Again, as a show only watcher, there are enough hints to this effect to think Robert at least might have heard them.  

 

I think he also loses points for allowing himself to descend into drink and women and kind of lose sight of his job.

 

But I’ll concede the B, B+. Watchers ranked him a D+. I think that’s a bit harsh. Gads. 

 

And I’m happy to add your reasons to mine for A+ grade of John Snow, or whatever his name is now.  It will be interesting to see how he reacts to the news he’s screwing his aunt... 

 

This one always gets me.  Though I like the one with a bad word better...

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Not often Game of Thrones overlaps directly with Redskins, but here you go.

 

I kinda think Buffalo is more Castle Black, and Canada is north of the wall.  But Whatever.

 

 

 

 

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A main characteristic of this series is that no character is completely good nor completely evil.

 

We have some characters, so far, who don’t fit this bill: Night’s King and Jon Snow. Maybe Sansa. Maybe Arya. 

 

Are they destined for their heel/hero turn?

 

Another major theme is that of kin slaying. I think every major house (the ones on the wheel in the intro) has done it so far.?

 

 

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18 hours ago, Elessar78 said:

A main characteristic of this series is that no character is completely good nor completely evil.

You know, I'm not sure that's exactly true.  I think it's more that all characters are complicated, none are perfect, and all (even the good ones) have flaws.

 

 

18 hours ago, Elessar78 said:

We have some characters, so far, who don’t fit this bill: Night’s King and Jon Snow. Maybe Sansa. Maybe Arya. 

If we go with my above description, of the main characters:

 

Night King: We almost don't know enough about this guy to really have a judgement.  We think he's pure evil, but apart from his creation scene in "The Door" really don't know much else about him. We have no idea what his end goal is.  

 

Jon: Fatal flaw is he's too good, and he's kinda dumb.

 

Sansa: She was an extraordinarily "stupid girl" (her words.) Very naive.  Seems to kinda have come around a bit.

 

Arya: Revenge.  She's big on revenge.

 

Ned: Noble to a fault and got his head lopped off.

 

Danny: Kinda likes to burn people alive, solves problems with violence, and is power hungry.  

 

... I could do this for just about every good character.  

 

 

18 hours ago, Elessar78 said:

Are they destined for their heel/hero turn?

The only character who has really flipped from villain to hero and back and forth is Jamie.  He was the shows first real villain when he pushed Bran out of the tower. But through the seasons became a lot more nuanced, and kindof a "hero" in his own way.  He's the most complicated character on the show by a mile. 

 

An argument could be made for the Hound as a villain turned hero, but I don't think he was ever really a villain.  However, he did grow a soul, which you can see when he buries the father/daughter who he essentially starved to death when he robbed them.  

 

18 hours ago, Elessar78 said:

Another major theme is that of kin slaying. I think every major house (the ones on the wheel in the intro) has done it so far.?

Kin or King?  Important distinction...

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Completely separate topic.  I was having a chat with somebody the other day about the most memorable scenes (we limited to 5) in a different show.  And I thought that would be an interesting topic.  So, what are the scenes you remember most from Game of Thrones.  For any reason.  Just ones that you immediately can recall.  Mine are, in no order except for the first one:

 

- Ned's beheading.  

- Margary telling Renly he needs to put a baby in her belly. (Natalie Dormer really does it for me. My favorite nude scene of the entire series because it was both humorous, and not entirely gratuitous, there was a point to it)

- Night King kills the Dragon, and Danny's look.  The whole scene is memorable, but that short bit of it is very memorable.

- Tyrion's trial & Fight between the Mountain and the Viper (I know, they are 2 different scenes in 2 different episodes, but I really think of them together)

- Jon Snow's death. 

 

Interesting that I immediately recall most things from earlier seasons...There are a bunch more that come to mind, but those always pop into mind immediately.  

 

What are yours?

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Kin.

 

Tyrion, Dany have done their turn. As have Reek. I guess Cersei has yet to flip. Call it what you will, but no one is completely one track in this show. 

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58 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

What are yours?

 

1. Lyanna/Ned with Jon reveal - The most important moment in the entire series. The culmination of 6 seasons (and 20 years for book readers) of theories and speculation. This is what all the mystery and buildup and world building of Robert's rebellion was for and it was handled absolutely perfectly. The dialogue, the score swelling and the transition of the baby to Jon's face all were incredible. This is the high point of the entire series for me. That it was immediately followed with Jon being legitimized with his King in the North scene only makes it even better. That's an incredible 10 minutes. We are finally let in on the reason why this random **** has been so special all along. Why he was brought back from the dead. To me, this is confirmation that, despite all the characters, this is Jon's story and he is the hero of this series.

 

 

2. Tyrion's trial and speech - My second favorite moment in the show. Just the defeated and almost regretful way Tyrion realizes that the same people he saved will always see him as some evil little monster. His dialogue both lashing out at the crowd and at Tywin was heartbreaking and powerful. He's carrying the weight of a lifetime of pain in this scene. The trial by combat declaration while the Rains of Castamere plays...goosebumps. The scene speaks for itself. 

 

 

3. Daenerys emerging from the fire with dragons. Sadly, I can't post the video due to the nudity. I remember being sucked into this show right away with the characters, dialogue setting, world building, political intrigue etc. and I was still reeling from the shock of Ned's death the previous episode. This scene showed me I still didn't know what to expect from this show as it dipped hard into fantasy with this moment. It was almost a heads up to strap in because this show was really going to be something special. The scene is handled extremely well with Jorah searching the smoldering flames of the pyre for his Khaleesi only to be stunned at her survival. I love how shook he is at her and the dragons, falling to his knees and pleading his allegiance with "blood of my blood". It is the perfect cap to season 1.

 

4. The Red Wedding - I got into GoT late and I remember being on twitter some random night when everybody collectively lost their **** over like 30 people being killed on a show and the something about a Red Wedding and all this basically shutting down and breaking social media for several hours. Fortunately, I never remembered what they were discussing but I did remember the phrase Red Wedding. So when I got into GoT I had it in the back of my mind that something was go down at a wedding. And then I got sucked in and fell hard for Team Robb. He was the new hero of the story, out to avenge his father's death. That was the twist. We thought it was Ned and then it ended up being Robb. He was young and awesome while still learning how to lead an army in a rebellion. So I was all about some Robb killing Lannisters and missed all the signs. When they went to the Twins, we had already been discussing Joffrey and Margery's upcoming wedding so I assumed that was the wedding where something would go down, most likely the little **** Joffrey killing a bunch of people. I let my guard down. When the two guards walk to the back and shut the door, my heart sank. I knew something awful was about to happen. And it was horrible. It was hard to watch. It stays with you. You can forget it. My stomach was all twisted. The sheer cold and evil brutality of it all. Then,  "mother!?" this young man, this king leading an army and in his moment of death he calls out for his mother. Jesus. I remember when it finally ended, i turned the TV off, poured a glass of jack and just sat there in the dark with my thoughts. 

 

5. The Massacre in the Reach - In the show, this is technically called the Loot Train Battle which is completely ridiculous. It's a problem i have with the producers writing without Martin's outline for things like this. There is a better name for this event within the world. I can't believe any character in-world would refer to this event as this. The Battle of the Trident is an example of something that sounds badass and fits within the context of the lore. Loot Train Battle? ****ing stupid. But I digress. 

 

This scene is memorable for multiple reasons. One, for me, it came out of nowhere. I didn't expect this episode to end with a battle. Two, it is some of the best CGI I have ever seen and is incredibly shot. Some of the shots are jaw-dropping like Drogon in the air and blasting a fire down in a straight line of explosions and hellfire. Another shot I love is Drogon gliding over the water. 

 

Mostly, I love the way it happens. Bronn, Jaime and Rickon - no Dickon, discussing the day and next strategy. Wait, do you hear something? Listen. ( a low rumble in the distance) oh **** time to panic. Let's get into position and prepare for battle. I love the sequence where Bronn tells Jaime to get back to King's Landing and Jaime insists they can hold them off just as we first hear Drogon and then he appears over the Dothraki army in all his majesty and awe as the Khaleesi theme hits. Just stunning. We also get to see the dothraki in battle after being teased about how badass they are on individual levels for 6 previous seasons. We finally see their ability with horseback archery, something mentioned in season 1 or 2 with Bran. This entire scene is breath taking and conflicting being that I wanted Daenerys to win but also wanted Jaime and Bronn to survive. It has some powerful elements to it as well like Tyrion watching his army, friend and brother be totally massacred. Or Jaime, seeing his army turned to ashes and in his mind another mad king that must be stopped in that instant, his life be damned. 

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I loved Hardhome, probably because the books aren't there yet. The very end, with the NIght's King raising the dead and staring at Jon Snow's boat slowly drifting away. 

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