Voice_of_Reason

Game of Thrones Season 8

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I've been so busy at work and with my new baby boy that I haven't posted anything about the finale yet.  Just about everything has been covered already.  To add my general $.02, I had no problem with the plot points at all for the entire season, except I wouldn't have wasted 2 full episodes on the Night King.  But I understand they had to do something to wrap up that plot line, so, whatever.  That included the finale.  What bothered me is that they rushed through the most important plot point in like 45 minutes of the approximately 78 hours of television they created: Danny losing it.  And we don't even really know why, except she lost it.  Which is unsatisfying.  From the time in episode 5 where she goes crazy and burns the city to the time Jon drives a dagger through her heart is about 45 minutes of total TV time. They had 75 hours to set this up, and just didn't.  And that part is somewhat maddening.  

 

I liked the finale fine.  It was an entertaining hour and a half of television.  It was extraordinarily well acted, and it was beautifully shot.  My hat goes off to Emelia Clarke and Peter Dinklage who I think did tremendous jobs throughout the episode.  For Emelia, at least until she was stabbed through the heart. I loved the opening montage of Tyrian, Jon and Davos walking through the devastation.  I thought the whole Danny Speech scene was outstanding.  It was almost right out of the WWII era Nazi/USSR films, with the big banners, stoic troops, leader making a grand speech. It was extremely well done.  I enjoyed the chats between Tyrian and Jon, Jon and Arya, and even the last scene between Jon and Danny.  The first 40 minutes and the last Stark goodbye montage were outstanding. 

 

However.  There are just so many unforced errors due to "lazy" writing.  I actually don't like the term "lazy" but I don't know what a better term is.  I rally do believe that the writers and show runners worked very hard at this, I just don't think they did a good job connecting the dots on things which they should have been able to connect the dots on. 

 

So here's my list of things that made no sense in universe that they could have explained better if they had just taken the extra few episodes HBO was willing to pay for:

 

- How the hell did Greg Worm go from murdering Lanister soldiers to up the steps waiting for the queen before Jon got there?  Did he apperate (Harry Potter?) Transport (Star Trek)? Get running lessons from Gendry?  This made no sense.  It looked like Jon walked straight from their first meeting to see Danny, and Grey Worm was already there, and looked like he had been there a while.  Jon really should have bent the knee to Grey at that moment, or at least asked how the hell he got there so quick.  It was jarring, and took me out of the moment.

 

- When Jon goes to talk to Tyrian, he has to be disarmed.  When he goes to talk to Danny, he is allowed to be armed.  Danny is all alone in the throne room, and Tyrian has like 30 unsullied guards around him.  Which is AFTER Danny walked away being escorted by about 10 unsullied.  I get they needed Danny to be alone for the vision callback and the Jon killing her, but that was just not really believable. She would have had some guards around her.  She's had guards around her every moment we had seen her in the episode up until that point. 

 

- How in God's name does anybody find out Jon killed Danny?  Nobody sees it.  Drogon takes her body away.  Nobody's there.  Jon walks down the stairs, tells the unsullied who might be lurking somewhere Danny wasn't there, and just walks out of the castle.  Unless he told somebody, thee are no witnesses except a dragon which flew away.  And I don't think Jon is quite stupid enough to TELL Grey Worm that he killed Danny.  Maybe he is.  I dunno.  And if Jon does tell GW he killed Danny, GW kills him on the spot.  Or at least tries to. Jon would die eventually because even if he could best GW, the rest of the magically multiplying unsullied would kill him, most likely. (As an aside, I would have LOVED to see a GW vs. Jon 1:1 fight. Regardless, it would have been nice to SEE how Jon gets captured and made prisoner, because that just seems horribly unlikely.  

 

None of this makes any sense.  Like no sense.  There are a million ways to tell this story by just writing it a bit better.  

 

- What happens during the 3 seconds of black screen and 4 inches of Tyrian's beard?  How did all the characters get to Kings Landing? Why did they come?  Who invited them?  What was the purpose of the meeting?  How are the Unsullied holding the city?  Is there really anybody even left in the city to hold?  Where did the Dothraki go? None of this makes sense.  Literally, that 3 seconds of black screen and 4 inches of beard growth could have been an entire 48-52 minute episode.  And could have been extremely compelling.  Imagine a scene with Yara finding out Danny burned down Kings Landing.  Sansa finding out Jon had been imprisoned by the unsullied for killing Danny.  As a side note, I think if Arya wanted to break Jon out, I actually think she could have pulled that off.  Which would have been a cool faceless man type of thing. There was a lot of story to tell there, and I wish we were able to spend that time with the characters.  

 

- Now we move to the dragon pit meeting.  First, the people who attended (From left to right)

  Sam - representing house Tarley, which doesn't really exist anymore? Or the Maesters, but he's not wearing robes? This is weird.  He's there because he's a named character. 

  Unknown Dude. 

  Edmure Tully.  Who has been absent since season 6, and captive since season 3 I think?  The best part of the entire sequence is Sansa owning him.  

  Arya - faceless man assassin, youngest daughter of the Starks and resident bad ass.  But no real political power

  Bran - This makes sense in that he's the eldest son and theoretically Lord of Winterfell, though he renounced it to Sansa so maybe it doesn't make sense?

  Sansa - Lady of Winterfell, this does make sense.  

  Ser Brienne of Tarth - if she's there as a body guard to Sansa (and Arya, though there's no need for that) then it makes sense.  If she has a vote, this makes no sense.

  Ser Davos - As an adviser, this makes sense.  
  Gendry - if he's here to take another swing at Arya, great.  Otherwise, he was made Lord by a usurper who burned down King's Landing.  That's a tough beat for my guy.

  2 more Random Dudes

  Yara - I guess this makes sense.

  The newly frocked and formerly mentioned Prince of Dorne (The PoD).  Which kindof makes sense except that he says nothing. I'll get to that later. 

  Robin Aryn - Lord of the Vale.  Who has grown up a bunch since we previously saw him.

  Lord Royce - If Robin is here, Royce would not be. 

  Another Random dude

  

First of all, this collection of people as the most powerful people in Westeros is a joke.  

Second, how the hell does Tyrian, who is in shackles, end up running the meeting?

Third, Grey Worm just goes along with the plan?  After keeping Jon and Tyrian locked up for at least 4 inches of beard growth, the official time measuring stick of the season?

Fourth, I don't get what Sansa is playing at.  Her brother, the oldest son of Ned Stark, was just made King of the Seven Kingdoms.  Bran is a Northern Lord.  He is a Stark.  Yet the Starks won't "Bend the knee" to the legitimate Lord of Winterfell?  That makes absolutely no sense.  The North would not so much be "bending the knee" to a southern ruler, as ruling the whole seven kingdoms.  The reason is that they want Sansa as Queen of the North to finish her arc.  And as a Sansa fan, I get that.  But the setup makes no freaking sense.  

Fifth, as soon as Sansa secedes the union, my expectation would be the PoD to stand up and say, "Unbowed, Unbent, Unborken MFers, we're out of here." And then Yara to say, "We pledged to Queen Danny, who was unjustly murdered, we're out homies."  I guess Sam and Edmure would go along with it.  I have no idea what the Vale would do, but they have been very tight with Sansa, so they might go that route. 

Sixth, Bran does not have a better story than anybody.  Which is why he was written off the show for an entire season.  Arya might have the best story. Maybe even Sansa.  Or Tyran.  Or Jon.  

 

It just made no bleeding sense. The whole thing was really a tough look for my guys the Double D's who wrote and directed this.  Really tough.

 

- Bran is King of the Six Kingdoms.  Sansa is Queen of the North.  What in the name of everything Stark is stopping either one of them from setting Jon free of his bonds to the Night's Watch the moment Grey Worm sets sail for Naath?  The answer: Nothing.  Except that they wanted to get Jon back to Tormund and the North.  Which might be where he wants to be anyway.  But the whole setup made no sense.  

 

- Brienne being the head of the Kings Guard makes no sense.  She pledged to protect Sansa and Arya.  There's almost no chance that she doesn't go back to Winterfell with Sansa to be the head of her Queen's Guard.  I like the Brienne writing in the book scene, but I just don't think it's realistic that Brienne stays in Kings Landing when Sansa heads north.  

 

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Posted (edited)

To be honest, a lot of that seems nit-picky to me and I feel like some of the stuff you mention would distract from or water down the story and the episode.

 

That said.¬† They probably could/should have broken the last episode up into two episodes.¬† Have the first episode about Dany and people trying to figure out what to do about her, while she struggles with what she did.¬† At the end of the episode we see her finally at peace with what she did, at least on the outside and Jon not getting what he needs to hear to keep her alive does what he does.¬† Then it ends on Drogon doing his thing with Dany¬†ūüė•¬†and Jon turning himself in to an enraged greyworm, with Arya and Davos and some northerners looking very anxious in the background.¬†¬†

 

Next episode starts off with Arya and Davos convincing greyworm that it would be a really bad idea to immediately kill Jon and that he would be sentencing many of the people under him and likely himself to death if he attempted it.  Then they can have a montage of people hearing the news and traveling and the episode can mostly go how it went with some extra stuff from Bran to make the decision to make him king more convincing and something where they have to convince Greyworm to listen to Tyrion.   There could also be some signs of potential future issues, where Dorne and the Iron Islands shows some skepticism and jealousy about the North being independent, but holds back from doing anything for the time being.

Edited by visionary

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There should have been at least more conversation in the Dragon Pit with the sides taking shape. It would have made sense for Gendry to speak up against Jon, because Dany raised him up, otherwise, the scene from after the NK battle makes no sense. As well as Dorne, because they had already sided with Dany. Then the reason for Jon being sent to the wall makes more sense, because you would then have Iron Islands (already independent from Yara sending ships to ferry Dany), Stormlands, and Dorne always ways watching, making sure that he stays there.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Yohan said:

t would have made sense for Gendry to speak up against Jon, because Dany raised him up, otherwise, the scene from after the NK battle makes no sense. As well as Dorne, because they had already sided with Dany.

 

They didn't think that far ahead. The Gendry scene was a half assed attempt to rebuild the world and have an heir in the Stormlands, regardless of the fact that Gendry didn't even know his own name yet somehow deserved that. 

 

The fact that the Dornish actually never knelt to Aegon Targaryen, killed one of his dragons and his sister and stayed independent long after the other 6 kingdoms had joined made it laughable that they would just go along with Northern independence so easily. 

 

Which really gets to the problem with the entire scene. All the kingdoms and lords have been in open rebellion fighting for independence and survival, navigating the perilous dynamics of power in Westeros for a decade and yet to a person, every one of them was able to agree upon a king in 15 seconds without so much as a single hesitant thought. 

Edited by Momma There Goes That Man
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26 minutes ago, Yohan said:

There should have been at least more conversation in the Dragon Pit with the sides taking shape. It would have made sense for Gendry to speak up against Jon, because Dany raised him up, otherwise, the scene from after the NK battle makes no sense. As well as Dorne, because they had already sided with Dany. Then the reason for Jon being sent to the wall makes more sense, because you would then have Iron Islands (already independent from Yara sending ships to ferry Dany), Stormlands, and Dorne always ways watching, making sure that he stays there.

Gendry bonded with Jon some in the episode where they went beyond the wall and he's also buddies with Davos.  I don't think he would side against Jon just because Dany legitimized him and gave him a title.  Jon being sent to the wall is basically throwing a bone to Greyworm and co and to trick them into thinking he's being horribly punished.  

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Posted (edited)

To add, they agreed to all this within 15 seconds after it was proposed by a prisoner whom many there believe has killed 1 king, killed a hand of the king and committed treason resulting in the death of a queen AND who moments later admits that he has no idea what he's doing and has ****ed up too many times to count. 

Edited by Momma There Goes That Man

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7 minutes ago, visionary said:

Gendry bonded with Jon some in the episode where they went beyond the wall and he's also buddies with Davos.  I don't think he would side against Jon just because Dany legitimized him and gave him a title.  Jon being sent to the wall is basically throwing a bone to Greyworm and co and to trick them into thinking he's being horribly punished.  

And you could be correct, I'm just stating on how things make sense to me I guess. Because if its all about throwing a bone to Greyworm, then why have everyone laugh at Samwell for bring up democracy, but then they are all cool with Bran being King because, 'Cool story brah'.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Yohan said:

Because if its all about throwing a bone to Greyworm, then why have everyone laugh at Samwell for bring up democracy, but then they are all cool with Bran being King because, 'Cool story brah'.

 

Democracy was never a realistic option, at this point.  Bran being king is setting it up so that the various powerful lords can use political influence to decide who the next king is, thus giving them a say in the process.  At the moment Tyrion and the council are the true rulers though, which is pretty interesting and also is a way for the various lords to exert their influence into policy.  Keep in mind that there are still spots open on the council.

Edited by visionary

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5 minutes ago, visionary said:

 

Democracy was never a realistic option, at this point.  Bran being king is setting it up so that the various powerful lords can use political influence to decide who the next king is, thus giving them a say in the process.  At the moment Tyrion and the council are the true rulers though, which is pretty interesting and also is a way for the various lords to exert their influence into policy.

They democratically voted Bran King, because he allegedly had the best story. 15 Seconds after laughing at Samwell. They should have been laughing at Tyrion for even bringing that up "a story" as a reason for Bran to be King.

 

Why does Bran need a Master of Whispers?

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2 minutes ago, Yohan said:

They democratically voted Bran King, because he allegedly had the best story. 15 Seconds after laughing at Samwell. They should have been laughing at Tyrion for even bringing that up "a story" as a reason for Bran to be King.

 

Why does Bran need a Master of Whispers?

They don’t care who rules, as long as there’s stability and they have some influence.  Letting the common people decide was laughable to some of them and was not a real option at this point.  Tyrion’s thing about who has the best story doesn’t really make sense (though saying the one who knows the most stories and understands history the best makes the best ruler is an interesting thought.) but I don’t think they cared.  

 

I also wondered if it‚Äôs some sort of ‚Äėwriters are cool and should have more respect and power‚Äô bit¬†by GRRM or D&D, with Bran standing in for writers/storytellers.

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1 hour ago, Yohan said:

And you could be correct, I'm just stating on how things make sense to me I guess. Because if its all about throwing a bone to Greyworm, then why have everyone laugh at Samwell for bring up democracy, but then they are all cool with Bran being King because, 'Cool story brah'.

 

Grey Worm should've never even had a say it in anyway. He isn't a noble, and he was leaving as soon as that business was done. Likewise, Grey Worm not killing Jon immediately, or at least dying in the attempt makes the whole thing ridiculous to begin with. 

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I'm wondering why more of the representatives didn't push for independence.  Particularly the Iron Islands and Dorne.  I mean they had just granted it to the North, why not them?

 

Also, Dorne and the Vale were totally untouched by the wars.  Whats stopping them from marching to KL with their forces to try to seize power? 

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1 hour ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

Grey Worm should've never even had a say it in anyway. He isn't a noble, and he was leaving as soon as that business was done. Likewise, Grey Worm not killing Jon immediately, or at least dying in the attempt makes the whole thing ridiculous to begin with. 

In Greyworms defense, his ever multiplying forces did control King Landing. So he had somewhat of a say in what happens to his prisoners. Davos offered him a position of nobility in the Reach. But yes, the part about Jon doesn’t make sense, other then he can’t act unless ordered....

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DCSaints_fan said:

I'm wondering why more of the representatives didn't push for independence.  Particularly the Iron Islands and Dorne.  I mean they had just granted it to the North, why not them?

 

Also, Dorne and the Vale were totally untouched by the wars.  Whats stopping them from marching to KL with their forces to try to seize power? 

If they had all demanded independence there probably would have been bloodshed.  Also there are benefits to not going independent and it’s not certain how long the North being independent will work out or how it will go down. They’ll likely need to make political ties and trade and commerce with the 6 kingdoms anyway.  

 

Other kingdoms deciding to go independent is definitely something for a sequel or for fans to think about happening or being discussed in the future though.  Just because something didn’t happen in the last episode doesn’t mean it isn’t ever going to happen.  That’s why stories leave some things open for the audience to speculate on.  Personally I figure they will all end up gaining some independence and the North will eventually move to more of a semi-autonomous status instead after struggling on their own for some time.

 

Thinking about it some more.  It would have been cool for Tyrion or someone in the council to mention that the Dornish, etc were complaining and that something would have to be done about it and maybe suggest adding Dornish dignitaries to the council or some some other possible solution.   I don't think it was necessary, but it would have been an interesting touch.

Edited by visionary

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1 hour ago, DCSaints_fan said:

I'm wondering why more of the representatives didn't push for independence.  Particularly the Iron Islands and Dorne.  I mean they had just granted it to the North, why not them?

 

Also, Dorne and the Vale were totally untouched by the wars.  Whats stopping them from marching to KL with their forces to try to seize power? 

The Iron Islands had their armies/navies destroyed during the wars, they really can't declare independence. The Vale is ruled by a child who's going to be putty in the hands of Sansa Stark.

 

Dorne...yeah, they've pretty much been defacto independent since the death of Robert Baratheon. No idea why they wouldn't have left.

 

Also, King's Landing is a smoking ruin filled with corpses and hidden wildfire caches, there's really no point in trying to seize it (which is why Daenerys was so keen in moving on to liberate the world).

 

 

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28 minutes ago, FanboyOf91 said:

The Iron Islands had their armies/navies destroyed during the wars, they really can't declare independence. The Vale is ruled by a child who's going to be putty in the hands of Sansa Stark.

ÔĽŅ ¬†

Dorne...yeah, they've pretty much been defacto independent since the death of Robert Baratheon. No idea why they wouldn't have left.

ÔĽŅ ¬†

Also, King's Landing is a smoking ruin filled with corpses and hidden wildfire caches, there's really no point in trying to seize it (which is why Daenerys was so keen in moving on to liberate the world).ÔĽŅ ¬†

 

 

Iron Islands may have had fleet wiped out but so was everyone elses.  The crown was in no position to do anything. 

 

All these kingdoms were independent before the Targaryans unified them.  Many had unique cultural identities.  King's Landing was almost wiped off the map and was no position to enforce rule, without the support of vassals.   And why should they have their vassals support, when none had any reason to help the crown?  The one vassal Bran had a direct link to, was now indepedent and weaked in any case.  They are just going to bend over and take it up the *** because Tyrion gives a little speech ? 

 

Earlier seasons alluded to the current power in Kings Landing attempting to make alliances through marriages/etc.  End of the series and Bran just takes the throne and eveyrone else shrugs.  Bah.

 

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31 minutes ago, DCSaints_fan said:

 

Iron Islands may have had fleet wiped out but so was everyone elses.  The crown was in no position to do anything. 

 

All these kingdoms were independent before the Targaryans unified them.  Many had unique cultural identities.  King's Landing was almost wiped off the map and was no position to enforce rule, without the support of vassals.   And why should they have their vassals support, when none had any reason to help the crown?  The one vassal Bran had a direct link to, was now indepedent and weaked in any case.  They are just going to bend over and take it up the *** because Tyrion gives a little speech ? 

 

Because the Greyjoys have tried to declare independence before, and they got whupped:

 

Quote

However, the superiority of numbers and resources saw the Iron Throne crush the rebellion. The Greyjoy fleet was destroyed by Lord Stannis Baratheon.[5] King Robert and his warden of the North Lord Eddard Stark besieged the Greyjoy stronghold of Pyke. The Iron Islands were outnumbered ten to one.[3] During the final assault on Pyke, a battle-crazed warrior priest of the Lord of Light named Thoros of Myr led the way through a breach in the wall with his flaming sword, Jorah Mormont of Bear Island not far behind him. Eddard Stark and Jaime Lannister were also key fighters for the Iron Throne during the battle.[6] Balon's second son, Maron Greyjoy, was killed in the fighting at Pyke.[2] Maron's death was due to a collapsing tower during the battle.[6]

   

The rebellion was crushed and Balon was forced to surrender. He was accepted back into the king's peace, keeping his lordship and titles, but only on the condition that his last surviving son Theon be made a ward of House Stark as hostage for his good behavior. Theon was just 8 years old at the time. Robert's victory cemented his hold on the throne, after having overthrown the Targaryens a few years before.[2] King Robert knighted Jorah Mormont for his valor in the battle.[6]Jory Cassel also fought in the Greyjoy Rebellion.[3]

 

In retrospect, the whole idea of the rebellion has been extremely half-baked: Balon focused only on the short-term achievements, overestimating his forces and underestimating his opponents; apparently, he hadn't taken into consideration that Robert might eventually rally forces and launch a counterattack. As Tyrion correctly points out, the balance of forces alone should have made Balon drop the whole idea.

 

As things turned to be, Balon has not learned any lesson from the failed rebellion, for his poorly planned invasion of the North, about one decade later, happened similarly: an initial success, followed by a series of defeats and heavy losses.

 

Also, the North has every reason to not want an independent Iron Islands since they invaded and sacked Winterfell during the war and will probably try to do so again since the Iron Islands have a weak economy based on salt, fish, and piracy.

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3 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

Kinda scary how well this works 

 

 

It’s gets worse the more time lapses that they had her go crazy and slaughter everyone. It’s amazing how they ****ed all of it up when if she flies to the Red Keep and kills Cersei/burns it down, it's epic. 

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They could've easily finished it better with the short airtime left. 

 

The audience's POV should've been similar to Jon's; we should've been questioning whether Dany was just or not or whether she was mad or not. That adds more drama to Jon's decision and sets up a better meeting at the end on who gets to be king. (more characters would want justice for Dany then just Greyworm) 

 

All they had to do was show Dany going after Cersei when she snapped. They already established that Cersei was going to use the citizens as a shield against Dany but unfortunately they had Dany go completely bananas burn down the entire city for no reason. After we know Dany is completely bananas the story is done and there's no drama left. Her speech is trivial, Jon killing her is trivial, and Cersei dying is trivial. If we're still questioning whether Dany was just or not then her  speech becomes insightful, Jon's decision becomes dramatic and Cersei dies with a successful revenge plot.

 

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