Alex Smith Trade Thread (Details Inside)

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, UKskins said:

Regardless of the differential though, we have paid a heavy price with Fuller but let's stop acting like Kirk was an option. He wasn't and he made it perfectly clear we would get absolutely no discount on him.

 

My post about Kirk versus Alex Smith -- is it a wash?  Do I like the deal?  And the Smith contract spoke to what I said many times on that thread if the idea is to replace Kirk with another veteran -- it likely kills the #1 argument I've seen the most from the anti-Kirkers which is hey we can't build a team with that kind of money, lets go old school and build ourselves a monster defense with the extra cash. 

 

I thought the argument was ridiculous for multiple reasons (most based on the history here) and said so then.  I didn't perceive it would end up even more ridiculous than my guess then because I didn't think a trade would be what happens (I thought FA) so losing a pick and one of your top defenders. Wow.  So not only aren't we going wild with a measly 4-5 million extra to play with for this big FA spree but we also downgraded at defense.   So defense isn't better right now.  It's worse. 

 

And as for the Kirk wouldn't come back here.  It just sounds so abstract.  Lets be more specific Kirk didn't like or care for our FO.  We've heard that in a million ways from different sources.  He clearly doesn't think much of them and likely sees Bruce as a jerk and he is the dude running the team.  Hence its adios. 

 

17 minutes ago, UKskins said:

Kirk wasn't in love with the Redskins and didn't want to be here. Which if you look at it objectively is exactly what his actions indicate. T

 

I think we have to stop with the not in love with the Redskins stuff.  I am guilty of using that phrase, too.  But it implies the whole umbrella of the Redskins.  And that doesn't seem consistent with what he said and others have said who covered the story.  It's mostly about Bruce-FO and by extension Dan. 

 

I said it on the Kirk thread.  If I had to pick my poison if Kirk is gone -- I'd take draft a young guy.  Go young-start fresh and cheap.   Then you got a shot at a future developing QB and then you can even have a shot at the build a defense via FA drill.  I didn't think they'd get it right.  But in theory I could at least embrace the philosophy.   I said my least favorite option is to trade.  You likely get older and lose the chance to get younger all in one fell swoop.  Well, that's what they did.  So I am being consistent with my take.  Having said that I do like Alex Smith.  I think for the moment they will be OK if they upgrade around him.  But I don't like the move.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

21 minutes ago, UKskins said:

Right on cue - we have the Kirk fans only being able to see one side of the story and making dumb condescending statements to try and paint anyone who speaks against him into the exact corner I've been talking about that is clearly false.

My comments have nothing to do with being a Kirk fan and everything to do with being a Redskins fan, where for my entire adult life they've been notorious screw-ups at practically everything.  I used to want to pin blame on players and coaches just like you.  I started paying more attention to what other teams do and comparing it to what the Redskins do.  It's enlightening but also depressing.

 

I've never once said "poor Kirk" or anything of that nature.  I don't feel sorry for him. I don't feel he's a victim.

 

But I absolutely understand why he wouldn't want to be a Redskin.  The FO could have played this hand in so many different ways with Kirk here long term on the cheap or cut their losses and traded him when they had leverage.  They chose not to, most likely out of spite.  As an example, the 49ers wanted Kirk and Kirk wanted the 49ers, but this FO wasn't doing that because there wasn't a chance in the world they would risk both Kyle and Kirk in unison showing them up.  That's just one scenario where the Redskins could have ended up in a better spot but there are many more.  

 

With all that said, I'm well aware that many views here are based on ego, eerily similar to the FO.  I don't expect any logical argument I produce to sway you.  Even if you read what's I'm saying and think to yourself "damn, he's right" you aren't going to say that.  So let's do the board a favor and simply discontinue this discussion.  

 

Kirk is a greedy bad guy & the FO sucks. There, you win.

[zoony]

23 minutes ago, Birdlives said:

 

It’s recognizable in all his business dealings, not just the way he runs the Redskins. He has no formal education and it shows.

 

Hes tried to create a media amd entertainment empire by purchasing an aging and overvalued theme park, an aging an overvalued tom cruise, an aging and overvalued burger chain, etc.

 

Jason Taylor, albert haynesworth, and alex smith dovetail nicely, dont they?

 

Why oh why do we deserve this dummy... 

[UKskins]

11 minutes ago, Taylorcooley1 said:

So I'm hoping someone can help me understand something a little more clearly... so if the Redskins put whatever tag it is on Kirk I don't know which tag and he signs it it will allow us to trade him to a team for a ham sandwich and a Snickers bar correct?... if the Redskins approach Kirk with this tag and he says no I do not and will not sign it, then the Redskins can't do anything but watch him ride off into the sunset in March correct?

Kinda sorta.

 

There's a lot of back on forth on this in the last few pages of the thread but summary is:

 

Franchise Tag: We could franchise him but we'd be idiots to do it as he'd sign it and we'd be on the hook for $34million as soon as he signed it. Nobody is gonna trade for that on a one year rental and we'd have to renege on the Smith deal.

 

Transition Tag: Lower risk option - he could sign it and threaten to play on it but we could trade him for a ham sandwich and could possibly find a partner for that in a few hours - if we couldn't trade him within a few hours we would be screwed and have to start making cuts or renege on the Smith deal. We can't match if he wants to chase the money and go to Jets/Browns. We could match if he wanted to go to Broncos as they will find it difficult (but not impossible) to structure a deal we can't match. If he was set on going to Denver and Denver need a structure that we would be able to match then Denver would have to negotiate with us to agree not to match the deal. If he signed a cheap deal with Denver and we matched it then he would be instantly tradebait and we'd get a bounty to sell him to Browns or Jets at a much better rate than they could have done the deal.

[zoony]

20 minutes ago, rabidskin said:

Fire Bruce Allen now

 

If i wasnt so lazy i would start a thread on this.  But why do people keep saying this?  What difference does allen make?  If we fire him we will probably end up with pepper rodgers.

 

Allen is a tool, nothing more.  He could be successful in a well structured organization.

 

Fire dan snyder.  Why doesnt our fanbase get it?

[UKskins]

14 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

My comments have nothing to do with being a Kirk fan and everything to do with being a Redskins fan, where for my entire adult life they've been notorious screw-ups at practically everything.  I used to want to pin blame on players and coaches just like you.  I started paying more attention to what other teams do and comparing it to what the Redskins do.  It's enlightening but also depressing.

 

I've never once said "poor Kirk" or anything of that nature.  I don't feel sorry for him. I don't feel he's a victim.

 

OK, we're really not all that far apart if that's the case, except rather than loving Kirk, you are determined to pin 100% of the blame on the Front Office because you're so jaded with them. I'm jaded with the FO too, and I don't WANT to pin the blame on Kirk - it's just the way I see this particular situation that he has played a part in this.... I'm as happy as the next guy when Snyder and Bruce get out of town, but to say they are solely responsible for every part of every situation is a pretty subjective stance to take.... but yeah, I agree let's leave this discussion there because I don't think either of us are changing our perspective on this issue and in the grand scheme of things it's not all that important really either. Peace brother.

[Panninho]

Honestly, the front office must have known for sure like two years ago (latest last offseason) that Kirk won't stay here long-term. Not only was it the worst possible way to handle the situation with Kirk but looking back it was also the worst possible way to prepare for the future.

The fans still had some kind of hope that Kirk might sign here for long but they must have known. Otherwise there is no point in not even talking to him after the season. So what did they do with the extra time they bought with the franchise tags? Not only did they not draft any prospect at the quarterback position, they even cut Sudfeld. They must have known and did nothing about it. Did they really think the roster is strong enough to make a push for the superbowl?

I am pretty sure that there were franchises that were willing to trade for Cousins. There were reports that the Browns wanted to trade for Cousins during last years draft. They have and had a boatload of draft picks. Why did they not work something out? Now we lost Cousins, draft picks and one of our blue chip talents.

 

Without Cousins we might have sucked this past season but we would be in a better situation now. Heck we could have traded a first round pick for Alex Smith and probably still have one. 

What a sad performance. This front office is trying not to lose instead of trying to win and build something long-term. There really is not a single reason why Bruce Allen should still be in charge of this franchise.

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

Cousins had to be BEGGED to play aggressively! It took FOREVER for him to air it out to Doctson when the game was still close. Kurt COULD play that way as he'd shown in comebacks and out of control meaningless drives. Gruden said as much- Kirk resisted his coaching to play the numbers so HE COULD GET PAID. I said last spring..TRADE HIM before the draft. Anybody with a brain could see Kirk was F'n with the skins. WASTED 2017..THAT is on the FO

 

Now IMHO

Alex won't be looking at being paid and will play as coached-Aggressive which = fun to watch

Alex has better wheels and roll outs than KC

HOPEFULLY I won't be holding my breath in the 4th quarter yelling at the TV..DON'T THROW AN INTERCEPTION knowing it was coming (CHOKE)

HOPEFULLY we take advantage of this years College QB's and get one- EVEN burn the 1st to get one

We'll have a much better pass rush for Fullers loss won't be felt "as bad". That and we have talent now to replace (I hope Su Cravens gets his head on straight)

 

LASTLY and Most Important...we END the 2012 Snyder F'ups saga and HE...HE has learned from THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GOD I hope he understands his fanboy crap cost us 5 years of PAIN!!! Anymore of that crap and I'm done as a Skins fan

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

This entire situation is much like a jilted lover situation.  The good girl that's going somewhere with her life decides the bad boy is never going to change his ways and opts to move on.  Sure she accepted the nice gifts the bad boy would give her after he did wrong.  But over time she decided those gifts weren't worth wasting more time, that the bad boy was still going to stay out all night pounding Coors Lights and call out of work the next morning.

 

The girls family is elated that she's finally seen the light and expects her next beau to be stable and treat her real nice.  The bad boys friends know he's a loser, but he's their loser and that girl is a real **** for not accepting him for who he is.

 

Alex Smith is that hot cougar at the bar that wants to do naughty things to the bad boy.  They think they are rubbing it in the face of the good girl but she's already moved on and strangely feels no sense of jealousy.  But she's kind of sad that the mutual friends they shared will now be most likely lost and doesn't feel so great about that.

[Fat Stupid Loser]

13 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

None of this changes that Kirk (and ostensibly his agent) said they wouldn't even talk to the Skins about contract stuff until FA starts. Bruce calls, McCartney either ignores it or simply says "we told you we weren't interested in even talking until after we see what's out there in FA. Sorry." What should Bruce do, go to McCartney's house or Kirk's house and pull a John Cusack and sit outside their houses with a boombox over his head playing In Your Eyes?

I think this was Kirk's/ McCartney's way of dealing with BA. Fine Bruce, you don't want to commit, you still don't know what I'm worth (because you are apparently an incompetent judge of football talent, in a position you're not qualified for), we will prove to you what the market evaluation of me is. That way we will all know. Then, when that is established for you, we'll negotiate. But there is no longer a point in negotiating with you right now because for 3 years, you have made it clear that you think I'm Osweiler.

[Taylorcooley1]

18 minutes ago, zoony said:

 

If i wasnt so lazy i would start a thread on this.  But why do people keep saying this?  What difference does allen make?  If we fire him we will probably end up with pepper rodgers.

 

Allen is a tool, nothing more.  He could be successful in a well structured organization.

 

Fire dan snyder.  Why doesnt our fanbase get it?

Thanks Zoony..I'm sorry, but instead of just hitting the like button I had to tell you personally..this is so spot on.. even if we were to round up the highest-ranking folks that run this here wonderful website, the group would still not be successful until that little weasel disappears.

[DJD2]

I think they should exclusive tag him out of spite and he either sits for a year or they get 2 1st's in return.

 

I'm to the point now that I don't care if they have to cut a ton of people or if it puts them in cap hell for years.

 

They put themselves in this position, and then Kirk and his agent turned into a couple of pricks late in the process.

 

**** em all.

[UKskins]

7 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

LASTLY and Most Important...we END the 2012 Snyder F'ups saga and HE...HE has learned from THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GOD I hope he understands his fanboy crap cost us 5 years of PAIN!!! Anymore of that crap and I'm done as a Skins fan

I liked a lot of the post until I got to this bit. You don't really think Snyder is capable of learning a lesson do you? He ALWAYS knows best and always will at least in his opinion.

[Ghost of]

52 minutes ago, Birdlives said:

 

It’s recognizable in all his business dealings, not just the way he runs the Redskins. He has no formal education and it shows.

Most people with formal education don't start billion dollar businesses.  To the extent they do, it's because they had to go to school for the credibility.  If anything it's Snyder's lack of social intelligence that comes through, not learning some textbook approach to business.  

 

The other issue is Snyder built a shaky business in a bubble and sold off at the right time.  Arguably, if he had built his empire on car rentals or hotels, he'd be showing a different approach to business now.  In short, he got lucky and worked his butt off in building one specific thing.  But he has no savvy for it besides that (That's not to say he has zero sense, just nothing approaching what others in his situation might have shown by now.)  

 

Going back years, charging for training camp, regardless of the post-hoc theories about banning opposing teams, was an example of being too clever by half.  In a league filled with greedy owners, somehow he did something no one else was doing or thought to do.  Highly unpopular move.

[Taylorcooley1]

I appreciate the responses to the questions I had to help me clear up some things....  I am going to go with Kirk will not help the Redskins out and sign anything and just walk away in March.

[Riggo#44]

20 minutes ago, zoony said:

 

If i wasnt so lazy i would start a thread on this.  But why do people keep saying this?  What difference does allen make?  If we fire him we will probably end up with pepper rodgers.

 

Allen is a tool, nothing more.  He could be successful in a well structured organization.

 

Fire dan snyder.  Why doesnt our fanbase get it?

 

 

This is precisely why I have zero faith we will ever be anything remotely resembling a competent franchise.

 

Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. We will never even appear in a Conference Title game, let alone a Super Bowl, under Dan Snyder.

[UKskins]

8 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This entire situation is much like a jilted lover situation.  The good girl that's going somewhere with her life decides the bad boy is never going to change his ways and opts to move on.  Sure she accepted the nice gifts the bad boy would give her after he did wrong.  But over time she decided those gifts weren't worth wasting more time, that the bad boy was still going to stay out all night pounding Coors Lights and call out of work the next morning.

 

The girls family is elated that she's finally seen the light and expects her next beau to be stable and treat her real nice.  The bad boys friends know he's a loser, but he's their loser and that girl is a real **** for not accepting him for who he is.

That is probably the best post this board will see all year. Beautifully written. Problem is the good girl checked out and kept taking the gifts after she decided to leave already so she is not an angel either (I'll stop there as we agreed to leave that debate), but aside from that you've absolutely nailed it, and I couldn't agree more. See, told you we weren't that far apart on our thinking here 

[caldera]

12 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

Cousins had to be BEGGED to play aggressively! It took FOREVER for him to air it out to Doctson when the game was still close. Kurt COULD play that way as he'd shown in comebacks and out of control meaningless drives...

 

Now IMHO

Alex won't be looking at being paid and will play as coached-Aggressive which = fun to watch

 

Er... I've got some bad news for you... 

[Butz65]

2 minutes ago, Taylorcooley1 said:

Thanks Zoony..I'm sorry, but instead of just hitting the like button I had to tell you personally..this is so spot on.. even if we were to round up the highest-ranking folks that run this here wonderful website, the group would still not be successful until that little weasel disappears.

 

The reality - no one can fire Snyder - that's what's so frustrating.  He and I are close to the same age and both grew up in the glory days of Redskins past.  My guess is that if I owned the team I would have made plenty of mistakes out of a desperate need to make them better quickly.  My only hope (given he's going nowhere) is that he suffers as deeply as I do and will continue to mistake his way to eventual success.  Perhaps that means blowing this thing up (fire everyone) again if Alex Smith bombs over the next year or two (hopefully not).

 

 

[Ghost of]

What that article does remind me of is that, in a sense, Snyder is overly conservative or fosters this attitude.

 

When you are buying stocks that are already at their peak value, this is the person waiting for maximum data to ease them into a decision.  They want the "Safe" play of making 5 percent on a large investment instead of 1000 percent on a small one.  Not only is there an issue with acquiring older players who may be on the decline (or don't fit the system) but instead of firing Gruden and hiring McVay as a gamble on a long-term investment at low cost in someone noted by everyone in the organization as "brilliant" he kept along with the guy producing mediocre results.  That's an inherently risk-averse, conservative formula.  Maybe it's an overreaction against his previously more-risky plays, I don't know.

 

Even the RG3 thing, it was apparent that RG3 shouldn't be in a game.  It may sound wild, but he should have called down and had Shanahan bench RG3 before he got more seriously hurt.  And when Kirk was clearly going to to be the starter, they should have signed him long term to avoid this mess.  Even if we cut ties next year after a long contract, we'd have gotten value and maybe convinced Cousins to stay.

 

Most of this comes from an overly cautious approach (to things outside of sushi prices at FedEx, I imagine) to success and that may be because Snyder knows he didn't build a real business but an overvalued mirage and cashed in at the right time.  

15 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This entire situation is much like a jilted lover situation.  The good girl that's going somewhere with her life decides the bad boy is never going to change his ways and opts to move on.  Sure she accepted the nice gifts the bad boy would give her after he did wrong.  But over time she decided those gifts weren't worth wasting more time, that the bad boy was still going to stay out all night pounding Coors Lights and call out of work the next morning.

 

The girls family is elated that she's finally seen the light and expects her next beau to be stable and treat her real nice.  The bad boys friends know he's a loser, but he's their loser and that girl is a real **** for not accepting him for who he is.

 

Alex Smith is that hot cougar at the bar that wants to do naughty things to the bad boy.  They think they are rubbing it in the face of the good girl but she's already moved on and strangely feels no sense of jealousy.  But she's kind of sad that the mutual friends they shared will now be most likely lost and doesn't feel so great about that.

 

Careful, some white knight will come charging in with his lance and tipping his visor "m'lady" to defend the females on this board.  Oh wait, since the "bad" character here is a boy, no one will give a damn.

[rabidskin]

21 minutes ago, zoony said:

 

If i wasnt so lazy i would start a thread on this.  But why do people keep saying this?  What difference does allen make?  If we fire him we will probably end up with pepper rodgers.

 

Allen is a tool, nothing more.  He could be successful in a well structured organization.

 

Fire dan snyder.  Why doesnt our fanbase get it?

I think BA is a lot more than a tool and I do realize that Snyder has done damage to this franchise.  BA admitted before the Scotty hire that even he needed to re-evaluate his moves and everyone was being reviewed for their performance.  Well, Scotty's gone and another year has gone by and its gotten worse.  We are going backwards.  Same as BA did in Tampa Bay...Bruce Does need to be fired now but you can't fire the owner sadly.  Funny but here's an old bit of Tampa news with a warning at the end....." Call it a panic move, call it cleaning house prematurely, call it a genius move as Gruden/Allen had eclipsed their welcome. The bottom line is what's done is done. Jon Gruden and Allen didnt provide consistent results and so the Glazers moved on. As far as the $25 million left on Gruden/Allen's contracts, if they were to sign somewhere else for more money, the Glazers would be off the hook, if not the Glazers would have to cover the difference. At this point, I don't see either guy signing some where this season, but both will certainly land on their feet for the 2010 NFL Season. Hopefully for that prospective franchise they do not come as a package deal".    

[SkinsGuy]

31 minutes ago, zoony said:

Fire dan snyder.  Why doesnt our fanbase get it?

 

They do get it, but Snyder can't be fired. He can only sell the team, or die.

 

And though I dearly love the Washington Redskins, and want them back in the Super Bowl,  I am not going to wish death on Snyder to get it.

 

So, folks are just going to go after the one that can be  fired, and that's Bruce Allen.

[kingdaddy]

8 minutes ago, caldera said:

 

Er... I've got some bad news for you... 

You should worry about your own team and the head coach you have that keeps losing playoff games. It doesn't matter who the Chefs have at QB as long as they have Slingin Andy as their head coach.

[Butz65]

15 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This entire situation is much like a jilted lover situation.  The good girl that's going somewhere with her life decides the bad boy is never going to change his ways and opts to move on.  Sure she accepted the nice gifts the bad boy would give her after he did wrong.  But over time she decided those gifts weren't worth wasting more time, that the bad boy was still going to stay out all night pounding Coors Lights and call out of work the next morning.

 

The girls family is elated that she's finally seen the light and expects her next beau to be stable and treat her real nice.  The bad boys friends know he's a loser, but he's their loser and that girl is a real **** for not accepting him for who he is.

 

 

Funny.  I actually see this as the punch drunk college dropout (Redskins fans) who falls in love with the kind of awkward, way too skinny but bright eyed girl a year behind him in school.  She's awesome in his eyes (compared to the dregs he's had to deal with over his life) but everyone says - they don't quite get it - nice - but no Gisele.  He pumps her up so much that she begins to think her s***t don't stink and looks to upgrade.  She's got suitors - they all happen to be in a similar boat, desperate for that next date.  She moves on.

 

The jilted dropout drops into a bar to lick his wounds and see's his Lola in the back corner.  Older - but damn - she's hot - at least in his eyes.  Skinny awkward chick is now long forgotten.  Dropout pins all his new hopes on his Lola.  Some of his friends think he would have been better off rolling the dice with one of the newly minted 21-year old's who just walked into the bar.... 

[Taylorcooley1]

10 minutes ago, Butz65 said:

 

The reality - no one can fire Snyder - that's what's so frustrating.  He and I are close to the same age and both grew up in the glory days of Redskins past.  My guess is that if I owned the team I would have made plenty of mistakes out of a desperate need to make them better quickly.  My only hope (given he's going nowhere) is that he suffers as deeply as I do and will continue to mistake his way to eventual success.  Perhaps that means blowing this thing up (fire everyone) again if Alex Smith bombs over the next year or two (hopefully not).

 

 

This here is a very excellent point, I know and understand clearly that Snyder is just as a big of a fan as I am... I don't know how to say it or put it I think it would deserve its own thread for everybody's thoughts and opinions, on one hand I'm saying I would like to see this dude go down in any fashion and on the other hand I'm saying he's doing his best and he is just a fan like I am...and some.. who am I to say how a NFL organization should be ran... but we see all the BS that has happened from haynsworthless to d mac the rg me saga to now this.. and you just have to ask yourself when is enough... if what u stated happens and he blows it all up u would think and hope maybe he could put up a bill board with a big ? On it also stating any suggestions..lol