Alex Smith Trade Thread (Details Inside)

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 minutes ago, Burgold said:

All that said, it should be noted that Jay's ceiling with both the Redskins and Bengals so far has been just barely making the playoffs and never winning there. I don't really think that's fair, but it is true.

 

Yep...honestly, you are who you are until you change it. Trust me, given where we've been with some coaches, I don't mind the mediocrity (as an aside, I find it odd that so many fans refer to our team over the past 25 years as mediocre when, in fact, we've been bad). It's almost nice to establish 3 years of a solid baseline. Maybe it'll be our peak, but hopefully it becomes the floor moving forward. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

My point is that it's really hard to assign percentages of blame for the team's shortcomings because like any organization, everything starts from the top.  If it's bad at the top, it will absolutely trickle all the way down to the bottom, no matter how good the folks are in between.  Not once has any coach, even Joe Gibbs in his second stint, been able to bring any shred of positive consistency under Dan's ownership.  I'm not talking Super Bowls or conference championships.  I'm talking just two positive seasons in a row.  Coaches and quarterbacks come and go, but the owner and his right hand man remain relatively the same, as do the overall results.

[Burgold]

Just now, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Yep...honestly, you are who you are until you change it. Trust me, given where we've been with some coaches, I don't mind the mediocrity (as an aside, I find it odd that so many fans refer to our team over the past 25 years as mediocre when, in fact, we've been bad). It's almost nice to establish 3 years of a solid baseline. Maybe it'll be our peak, but hopefully it becomes the floor moving forward. 

Yep and Jay has done that. He has grown the team from crap (and except RGIII's miracle year) this team had been worse than crap for each of Shanny's years to mediocre. That's a good thing. The question then becomes can you make that next jump. I sort of think of Jay the way I think of Boudreau with the Caps or Wittman with the Wiz. He got them out of the basement. Now, Boudreau managed to do some impressive stuff once he left the Caps, but so far all three look like they have a ceiling.

 

I root for Jay to bust through and part of me thinks he can, but I think for him to do that he needs help. A B/B- HC can be Super Bowl caliber with an A Front Office. Right now though, I'd say we have a C+ HC married to a C-/D+ Front office or when I'm in a better mood, a B/B- HC married to a C+/C Front Office.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

My point is that it's really hard to assign percentages of blame for the team's shortcomings because like any organization, everything starts from the top.  If it's bad at the top, it will absolutely trickle all the way down to the bottom, no matter how good the folks are in between.  Not once has any coach, even Joe Gibbs in his second stint, been able to bring any shred of positive consistency under Dan's ownership.  I'm not talking Super Bowls or conference championships.  I'm talking just two positive seasons in a row.  Coaches and quarterbacks come and go, but the owner and his right hand man remain relatively the same, as do the overall results.

 

Of course, but this is the environment and the landscape with the Redskins. It really doesn't matter what someone could do in New England, Cleveland, or Green Bay because Snyder runs this team and a coach is going to have to try to win with his parameters. It's not fair and certainly not a model for success, but it's reality. 

[TSO]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Of course, but this is the environment and the landscape with the Redskins. It really doesn't matter what someone could do in New England, Cleveland, or Green Bay because Snyder runs this team and a coach is going to have to try to win with his parameters. It's not fair and certainly not a model for success, but it's reality. 

 

Yeah, I fundamentally disagree that it “doesn’t matter”. I mean, of course it does! It’s friggin everything! 

 

Show me a team that contended for a Super Bowl with the problem you acknowledge. Do you really think it’s just coincidental that their coaches and players consistently fail, and that they simply need to find someone who’ll just “face that reality” and win anyway? I think that’s a fantasy. 

 

Basically saying “too bad, it ain’t fair, but coaches are going to just have to win anyway”, is madness to me. It’s just super unlikely, and there may be only one exception to that in Belichick (though it’s defintely debatable). Look at the stuff that came out recently about the Pats, where Belichick is basically quoted as saying the moment the owner gets involved he’s done. Imagine him here, lol? So I honestly don’t think there’s even a single example of it in the NFL. That is where coaching gets way overvalued.

 

I don’t believe someone can come here and overcome that fundamental problem. I need to see some precedent for that before I accept these kind of thoughts you have. 

 

2 hours ago, Burgold said:

 

I root for Jay to bust through and part of me thinks he can, but I think for him to do that he needs help. A B/B- HC can be Super Bowl caliber with an A Front Office. Right now though, I'd say we have a C+ HC married to a C-/D+ Front office or when I'm in a better mood, a B/B- HC married to a C+/C Front Office.

 

Man, it’s hard to keep up with you. One second you completely bypass my points and trash Jay in what you admit was an overreaction, then the next second you’re saying stuff like this.  

 

I mean, this is basically what I was saying in the post you admittedly way overreacted to (though I’d lean towards your “better mood” grade, but it’s not the main point either way). I’m glad you got to vent at my expense, but boy, that was hyperbole and misrepresentation at its worst.  

 

I’m also surprised someone who has the habit of being as wordy as you took offense to me being wordy.  

 

Before I get into this post here I quoted, I want to mention that you said something that utterly confounded me. You said something to the effect that, “the buck stops with the visible people”. Uhm, no it doesn’t. Not at all. That’s actually the problem. 

 

As for this part of your post I quoted, I think where we disagree is the idea implied here that it’s Jay who needs help, whereas others wouldn’t. Nope. EVERY COACH DOES. That’s the entire essence of “organization”.

 

It’s nearly impossible for any coach to “take the next step” here with the way things have been run. The likelihood of that happening is next to zero, so I don’t buy marrying Jay with the FO’s ceiling of mediocrity and I haven’t seen an argument that has changed my opinion there at all. Pointing out perceived weaknesses, many of which can be argued and are hard to truly pinpoint given the issues at the top, does not change that. Anyone hired at that position will bring their mixture of strengths and weaknesses.

 

I want an FO that the entire league recognizes as one that elevates their hires/personnel, accentuates their strengths, minimizes their weaknesses, and provides an environment for them to thrive in. Not one that does the opposite and instead actually provides obstacles! 

 

So, yeah, anyone not focusing on that is missing the target, in my opinion. If that makes me a Gruden or Kirk or whoever apologist, I don’t give a crap. I gladly take that moniker on because heck yeah I empathize and I’m not going to judge (which you also agreed is pretty much impossible to do, while also proceeding to do it - I'm utterly confounded by you, I tell ya, confounded!) 

 

Shoot me for it.  

 

By the way, and this isn’t directed at you, I want people who cry about “too much negativity” to notice something here. It’s subtle, but notice that the ones you often criticize as being overly negative and not “supporting the team” are the ones actually defending the coaches and players for the most part. We are the ones more positive about those members of the Redskins and want them to succeed. Our perceived negativity is BECAUSE OF THAT POSITIVITY. We want Dan and his top exec to provide the necessary support for these Redskins. 

 

Notice how, on the other hand, supporting the top brass often leads you to vilify the aforementioned members of the Redskins, becoming negative towards them in the process and purposely seeking their replacements while they’re still Redskins. Interesting, right? 

 

So before you go off on someone for focusing on the sheer lunacy of what has transpired the last few years culminating in the Alex Smith trade... well, remember the above. This is the beauty of message boards. We can have layered, nuanced opinions that can’t simply be painted with broad brush strokes. 

 

I’ll go back to not posting much again. I’m too exhausted about it all, honestly. Partly why I defend Jay, I’ve got no idea how he isn’t totally burnt out at this point (probably is, lol). You guys can have the last word.  

[Burgold]

32 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

Man, it’s hard to keep up with you. One second you completely bypass my points and trash Jay in what you admit was an overreaction, then the next second you’re saying stuff like this.  

 

I mean, this is basically what I was saying in the post you admittedly way overreacted to (though I’d lean towards your “better mood” grade, but it’s not the main point either way). I’m glad you got to vent at my expense, but boy, that was hyperbole and misrepresentation at its worst.  

You think it's hard for to keep up for me. I find my own intellect dizzying (Princess Bride reference)

 

And I like wordy posts, but this team does tend to make wordy points Byzantine because none of it is simple or straightforward. None of it is simple. And yeah, I mostly needed to vent and go way over the top which is why I put disclaimers at the top and bottom.

 

I generally like your posts and when we disagree (as I think is happening here) it's along the edges.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

48 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

By the way, and this isn’t directed at you, I want people who cry about “too much negativity” to notice something here. It’s subtle, but notice that the ones you often criticize as being overly negative and not “supporting the team” are the ones actually defending the coaches and players for the most part. We are the ones more positive about those members of the Redskins and want them to succeed. Our perceived negativity is BECAUSE OF THAT POSITIVITY. We want Dan and his top exec to provide the necessary support for these Redskins. 

 

Notice how, on the other hand, supporting the top brass often leads you to vilify the aforementioned members of the Redskins, becoming negative towards them in the process and purposely seeking their replacements while they’re still Redskins. Interesting, right? 

Signed, sealed, delivered.

 

I wish you could pin this to the top of the board and make everyone read it before they can post.

 

When I cheer for the Redskins, I'm cheering for the guys on the sidelines.  Not the piles of dung in the box.

[Taylorcooley1]

Oh **** we wanna talk about negativity towards are beloved redskins..2004 Monday night football redskins at cowboys..the redskins are down 13-0 in a game..they weren't ever realy out of..it had me pissed..so ****ing pissed I pulled a reverse psychology and was actually cheering on the..I puke in my mouth typing this..cowpukes we hit moss on the first of two touchdowns that brought us back to win..I looked like a fool in the sports bar..but it worked..the negative "reversed psychology" game..

[TD_washingtonredskins]

18 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

Yeah, I fundamentally disagree that it “doesn’t matter”. I mean, of course it does! It’s friggin everything! 

 

Show me a team that contended for a Super Bowl with the problem you acknowledge. Do you really think it’s just coincidental that their coaches and players consistently fail, and that they simply need to find someone who’ll just “face that reality” and win anyway? I think that’s a fantasy. 

 

Basically saying “too bad, it ain’t fair, but coaches are going to just have to win anyway”, is madness to me. It’s just super unlikely, and there may be only one exception to that in Belichick (though it’s defintely debatable). Look at the stuff that came out recently about the Pats, where Belichick is basically quoted as saying the moment the owner gets involved he’s done. Imagine him here, lol? So I honestly don’t think there’s even a single example of it in the NFL. That is where coaching gets way overvalued.

 

I don’t believe someone can come here and overcome that fundamental problem. I need to see some precedent for that before I accept these kind of thoughts you have. 

 

 

 

I'm confused by your response...my point is that I don't see anything in our organization changing under Snyder so it's a fantasy to think that we will suddenly start operating like a well-run organization. We almost need the perfect storm the Yankees had with Steinbrenner in the 90s to find a formula that will succeed. 

[ColonialWBSkinsFan]

21 hours ago, Burgold said:

 

I root for Jay to bust through and part of me thinks he can, but I think for him to do that he needs help. A B/B- HC can be Super Bowl caliber with an A Front Office. Right now though, I'd say we have a C+ HC married to a C-/D+ Front office or when I'm in a better mood, a B/B- HC married to a C+/C Front Office.

 

Man, @Burgold, you're grading on a mighty generous curve there... I wanna enroll in whatever class you teach!  

[Spearfeather]

19 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

 

Notice how, on the other hand, supporting the top brass often leads you to vilify the aforementioned members of the Redskins, becoming negative towards

them in the process and purposely seeking their replacements while they’re still Redskins. Interesting, right? 

 

 

 

Not being OC about the front office to the point of posting the same thing 20 times a day in five different threads doesn't equal support for the front office, and every move they've made.  ( Not you in particular Submitted )

 

I have seen some people here that I think would be royally pissed to see Snyder holding up a Redskins Super Bowl trophy.

[kingdaddy]

21 hours ago, Burgold said:

Yep and Jay has done that. He has grown the team from crap (and except RGIII's miracle year) this team had been worse than crap for each of Shanny's years to mediocre. That's a good thing. The question then becomes can you make that next jump. I sort of think of Jay the way I think of Boudreau with the Caps or Wittman with the Wiz. He got them out of the basement. Now, Boudreau managed to do some impressive stuff once he left the Caps, but so far all three look like they have a ceiling.

 

I root for Jay to bust through and part of me thinks he can, but I think for him to do that he needs help. A B/B- HC can be Super Bowl caliber with an A Front Office. Right now though, I'd say we have a C+ HC married to a C-/D+ Front office or when I'm in a better mood, a B/B- HC married to a C+/C Front Office.

I don't disagree but, if this roster is healthy this season, for the most part, I expect JG to step up his game and start being more aggressive with his decision making and play calling. If he has a healthy Reed and Thompson then I expect to see more plays designed for them with mismatches created in formations. Sets with Davis and Reed both and Thompson in the backfield on first down rather than 3rd. I expect more out of JG in terms of drawing up plays and executing them. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

16 minutes ago, Spearfeather said:

 

Not being OC about the front office to the point of posting the same thing 20 times a day in five different threads doesn't equal support for the front office, and every move they've made.  ( Not you in particular Submitted )

 

I have seen some people here that I think would be royally pissed to see Snyder holding up a Redskins Super Bowl trophy.

It wouldn't be posted twenty times a day if there weren't nimrods arguing against those facts.

 

But yeah - count me in the crew of those who wouldn't be happy to see Snyder holding up a Super Bowl trophy.  He doesn't deserve one.  Nor are we in any imminent danger of him ever doing that.  He can still pose by the ones that were earned by folks that knew what they were doing, and that's sad enough as it is.

[goskins10]

7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It wouldn't be posted twenty times a day if there weren't nimrods arguing against those facts.

 

But yeah - count me in the crew of those who wouldn't be happy to see Snyder holding up a Super Bowl trophy.  He doesn't deserve one.  Nor are we in any imminent danger of him ever doing that.  He can still pose by the ones that were earned by folks that knew what they were doing, and that's sad enough as it is.

 

 

I am usually with you but you have lost me on this one. While I agree DS has done nothing to deserve a SB trophy, but we have suffered mightily. If he can get his head out of his ass or just get lucky, I don't care which, I would be glad to see him hold up the trophy, it not for him but for all us long suffering fans. 

[Spearfeather]

7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It wouldn't be posted twenty times a day if there weren't nimrods arguing against those facts.

 

But yeah - count me in the crew of those who wouldn't be happy to see Snyder holding up a Super Bowl trophy.  He doesn't deserve one.  Nor are we in any imminent danger of him ever doing that.  He can still pose by the ones that were earned by folks that knew what they were doing, and that's sad enough as it is.

Sure it would, and is.

 

And I'm not sure, what facts those people are arguing against.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, Spearfeather said:

Sure it would, and is.

 

And I'm not sure, what facts those people are arguing against.

The facts are that the team has been less than mediocre for Dan's entire tenure as owner and both guys he's hired to right this ship have been epic failures.  That a bad FO trickles down to the rest of the organization and leads to the less than mediocre results we've become accustomed to.  Even folks who claim to acknowledge those facts still always find a way to convince themselves that everyone else are the bad guys.  It's bizarre.

 

 

2 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

I am usually with you but you have lost me on this one. While I agree DS has done nothing to deserve a SB trophy, but we have suffered mightily. If he can get his head out of his ass or just get lucky, I don't care which, I would be glad to see him hold up the trophy, it not for him but for all us long suffering fans. 

I'm all for the guy getting his head out of his ass.  If he did that and won one, I wouldn't be upset to see him holding up the trophy.

 

Now with the situation the way it's been for two decades and somehow the team simply gets lucky for a one and done....I would not be happy to see him holding the trophy.  In fact, it'd be the only negative thing associated with adding a 4th Lombardi.  Of course I'd be ecstatic as a fan, for the other fans, and for the team and coaches.  I just think it would all but confirm that we'd never win another because Dan would be convinced that he figured it all out and we'd go right back to what we've always been under his ownership.

 

 

[TSO]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I'm confused by your response...my point is that I don't see anything in our organization changing under Snyder so it's a fantasy to think that we will suddenly start operating like a well-run organization. We almost need the perfect storm the Yankees had with Steinbrenner in the 90s to find a formula that will succeed. 

 

Ok, if that was your point then I misunderstood, because the way it came off when I read it was like, “too bad, coaches/players gotta overcome the impossible and win anyway”. 

[Spearfeather]

39 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The facts are that the team has been less than mediocre for Dan's entire tenure as owner

 

And no one, or almost no one is arguing that.

55 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

I don't care which, I would be glad to see him hold up the trophy, it not for him but for all us long suffering fans. 

 

And this is where I'm at also goskins10

[wit33]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I'm confused by your response...my point is that I don't see anything in our organization changing under Snyder so it's a fantasy to think that we will suddenly start operating like a well-run organization. We almost need the perfect storm the Yankees had with Steinbrenner in the 90s to find a formula that will succeed. 

 

Or an elite QB 

 

Or Coach (Gruden continues mature and improve and want to stick it out with him. Wouldn’t mind if organization rewarded him with another extension today)

 

Organizations go through ups and downs: look at the “well run” Eagle team the previous 3-5 years to this Super Bowl. Sure, exceptions exist, but there’s only a few (2-4 teams or so) able to consistently be a true contender to win it all.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

16 minutes ago, Spearfeather said:

 

And no one, or almost no one is arguing that.

Right, which is why it's bizarre that folks can admit that, yet always find reasons to justify the things that take place here and vilify the wrong people.

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

18 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Organizations go through ups and downs: look at the “well run” Eagle team the previous 3-5 years to this Super Bowl. Sure, exceptions exist, but there’s only a few (2-4 teams or so) able to consistently be a true contender to win it all.

I wouldn't call anything the Skins have done under Snyder's ownership an Up though.  A late season run to squeak in the playoffs a few times in 18 seasons that are always followed by many more downs is not something I would consider an Up.  

 

The Eagles and Redskins are polar opposites and not even worthy of comparison.  Sure, they just got their first Super Bowl victory but they've been competitive way more often than not since the turn of the milennium. 

[OVCChairman]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It wouldn't be posted twenty times a day if there weren't nimrods arguing against those facts.

 

But yeah - count me in the crew of those who wouldn't be happy to see Snyder holding up a Super Bowl trophy.  He doesn't deserve one.  Nor are we in any imminent danger of him ever doing that.  He can still pose by the ones that were earned by folks that knew what they were doing, and that's sad enough as it is.

Something tells me that you don't care WHO is hoisting a trophy as long as they are a member of the Washington Redskins... at least that's my stance.  I can't believe you would actually actively be rooting for the Redskins to NOT be a Super Bowl Champion because of the fact that Snyder owns the team.  Does that mean you want us to fail?  For as long as he owns the squad?  You legitimately are against the success of your favorite team?  You would be actively UPSET if the Redskins won the SB? 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

Something tells me that you don't care WHO is hoisting a trophy as long as they are a member of the Washington Redskins... at least that's my stance.  I can't believe you would actually actively be rooting for the Redskins to NOT be a Super Bowl Champion because of the fact that Snyder owns the team.  Does that mean you want us to fail?  For as long as he owns the squad?  You legitimately are against the success of your favorite team?  You would be actively UPSET if the Redskins won the SB? 

 

I never said any of that.  I think it should be obvious that I'd be happy to win a Super Bowl, for the fans and the guys on the sideline. The only downside would be seeing Dan smiling with that trophy.

 

Do you like it when executive terds where you work are showered with praise? When the folks that put in all the hard work really made it happen in spite of their efforts.  

[wit33]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I wouldn't call anything the Skins have done under Snyder's ownership an Up though.  A late season run to squeak in the playoffs a few times in 18 seasons that are always followed by many more downs is not something I would consider an Up.  

 

The Eagles and Redskins are polar opposites and not even worthy of comparison.  Sure, they just got their first Super Bowl victory but they've been competitive way more often than not since the turn of the milennium. 

 

For sure, Eagles were real contenders for a good period with Jimmy Johnson defense, but after that they moved on from their coach and messed up things for a good period of time. No doubt they’ve experienced way more success over last 25 years, not debatable. 

 

My point is, it’s incredibly difficult to maintain true contender status without an elite QB or now an innovative offensive mind calling plays or game planning. These elite talents make up for bad drafts, free agent signings, injuries or a bad “game plan day”. Fortunately there are only 3-4 elite guys and it doesn’t guarantee Super Bowls in the least, just “at bats” in playoffs for most part. 

 

I was as as sick as anyone losing the structure that appeared to be in place with Scott and liked his approach and GM talk he made available in press conferences and interviews. With that said, I continue to like the direction of the roster with guys in place currently and think they’ve positioned themselves to make an aggressive run in free agency (due to fiscal responsibility) to complete a good roster this year. 

 

 Obviously, the roster strength is easily debatable until results flow in next year. We’ll see! 

 

[OVCChairman]

5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

I never said any of that.  I think it should be obvious that I'd be happy to win a Super Bowl, for the fans and the guys on the sideline. The only downside would be seeing Dan smiling with that trophy.

 

Do you like it when executive terds where you work are showered with praise? When the folks that put in all the hard work really made it happen in spite of their efforts.  

 

Ok I figured that was your stance ,

 

Eh, I don't know that I let it bother me so much.  Trying to make a parallel to my employer and the team i root for is tough, but I guess I'd be a little sour if that executive took credit for what the accomplishment and stepped on the worker, but that's hard to do in the NFL with everything so public.  If we found our way to a Super Bowl title, the entire WORLD would know that Snyder was just the figure head and that would have meant he made some sort of good decision along the way.

 

 

I see your point, that your happiness of getting the ring is not in any sense to give Snyder some sort of Validation.. My assumption would be that no Redskins fan, or true football fan, would give him a pass for the past, if we ever got there.  They may praise the moves to get there, but EVERYONE knows what he's been doing to this point has not be good enough.