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Alex Smith Trade Thread (Details Inside)

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6 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

We can go round and round all day talking about this. Bottom line is it's not impossible nor inconceivable a team may want to get Kirk in the door if they don't think they could allure him on the open market. And that isn't holding him hostage or mistreating him. It's utilizing the franchise tag for its intended purpose, which is to not let an extremely valuable player walk out the door for nothing in return. I don't give a damn about how many times he's been franchised and neither would another team. The 34M guaranteed would be part of a long-term agreement anyway. What's the worst that happens if a team sends us a 3rd round pick? Kirk walks and then they get a comp pick and maybe the chance to develop a young guy behind him a year? I honestly think we can pull off more than a 3rd but we shall see.

 

Impossible?  No.  Highly unlikely?  Probably 99% chance it won't happen.  If any team doesn't think they could lure Kirk and make an offer that is competitive in the free market probably would not pursue a tag and trade with us as it most likely would be a destination he won't be interested in and him refusing to negotiate a LTD.  Why would they be willing to pay 34.5 million for a one year rental?

 

Tagging and trading Kirk relies on Kirk being on board with it 100% and getting to go to a team of his choice that is willing to make him a LTD offer he wants.  This could blow up in our faces so easy.  Even if he agrees, then we tag him, he signs, he has just guaranteed himself 34.5 million regardless of how it pans out.  What if he ends up not signing or agreeing to sign a LTD?  No interested team is going to pay for a one year rental at that point and we are out 51.5 million in cap space with two starting QBs on the roster.

 

You speak as if this FO suddenly got a horseshoe up it's ass, found the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and could pull this off. 

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3 hours ago, Silvernon said:

With McCloughan employed by Cleveland, I think we can safely assume Cousins is not in the picture for the Browns. 

He is only there until the draft and no he is still in play for the Browns..

3 hours ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

We found a starter in the 4th Round. His name is slipping my mind though.

 Didn"t he go to some Big 10 school?

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I have a question:  if we tag KC and nobody trades for him by June 1, and we cut him, what will the cap penalty be for us?

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21 hours ago, Alexa said:

Smith has only passed for 4k once in his 13 year career. He's passed for more than 22 td's twice and went an entire season w/out throwing a TD to a wr. I'm not all that impressed. Against the Titans in the playoffs Smith didn't make a single play to help them advance while up big in the first half. Colt could do those same things w/out paying 70 million. 

Agreed. Alex was a competent QB on a strong team. Now he is a competent QB on a questionable team. I would say lousy team but with the injuries this year, its hard to judge. We are probably better than lousy. Kirk was a great QB on a lousy team.  And before anybody pops a hemorrhoid, great does not equal elite.

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6 minutes ago, JaxJoe said:

I have a question:  if we tag KC and nobody trades for him by June 1, and we cut him, what will the cap penalty be for us?

Tag money is fully guaranteed... I believe we'd be on the hook for paying him the totality of it.  $28 mil for transition, $34 mil for franchise. 

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Look at the Chiefs run/pass ratio. The look at the Eagles run/pass ratio when Reid was there. Ill bet that you will see a similar trend in that he likes to run the ball more than throw it. I think that has alot to do with his numbers. Perfect example being one Kirk Cousins and his accumulating stats that just make him look good when in reality we winged it alot under him. Not to say he didnt earn the stats. Just saying that the opportunity was more available for him to do so. The opposite for Smith. 

 

If there is anything to be worried about with Smith is his generic ass name. Dude sounds like he should be a judge of a district traffic court or something not a NFL Quarterback. If his name was like, Gun McKickass or something we would be on our way to a championship. 

 

Gonna name my son Gun McKickass

 

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1 minute ago, Llevron said:

 Just saying that the opportunity was more available for him to do so. The opposite for Smith. 

 

That's true but Alex Smith has been starting in the league since 2005.  One would think that some coach at some point would utilize him more as a true passer if that's indeed what he's meant to be.  Yeah, it'd be great if all the sudden Jay finds something nobody else ever did, but not likely.  The best bet for this team to be successful with Smith is to bolster the running game and add a deep threat.  Similar to what it would be with any other better than average QB.

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23 minutes ago, JaxJoe said:

I have a question:  if we tag KC and nobody trades for him by June 1, and we cut him, what will the cap penalty be for us?

 

There's no cap penalty. His $34 million one year deal is paid and applied to the cap for 2018.

 

We'd be crazy not to risk it.

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10 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

That's true but Alex Smith has been starting in the league since 2005.  One would think that some coach at some point would utilize him more as a true passer if that's indeed what he's meant to be.  Yeah, it'd be great if all the sudden Jay finds something nobody else ever did, but not likely.  The best bet for this team to be successful with Smith is to bolster the running game and add a deep threat.  Similar to what it would be with any other better than average QB.

 

This is what worries me about the move. I have to believe that Jays system is what makes Kirk successful - or at least helps alot - otherwise it doesn't make sense. We know Jay aint gonna find a run game. He never has. Not in cincy and not here. Smith is too old to change is stripes and just become some awesome passer cause he wants to prove the Skins right. So we are left with Jays system being king, which validates the Redskins, and helps Smith. Or them trying to AGAIN fit a guy into a system where he doesnt. 

 

I dont want to believe they are that stupid if we can see it. But history.....

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42 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

There's no cap penalty. His $34 million one year deal is paid and applied to the cap for 2018.

 

We'd be crazy not to risk it.

Thanks. I agree the risk / reward business decision is too great on the ‘risk’ side. Plus, if we are to recieve a 3rd round compensation pick - then why the risk to maybe give this up for a 2nd?  I dont think we’d ever get a 1st. 

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I'm not worried that Smith is going to come in and be McNabb II.  I just don't see him lighting up the field as a passer without major improvements to the running game, a healthy Jordan Reed and another weapon at receiver.  While I think Bruce is a nimrod when it comes to building a team, I'd imagine guys like Jay are beating the drum to address the running back position at the least.

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17 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The holes in all of it really boils down to what Cousins wants and what his agent advises him to do.  Cousins can choose to sign the tag if the Redskins apply it and they can't rescind it, meaning they are risking carrying 50M in QBs if no team bites, leading to a situation that is very likely to force the team to trade him for less than the 3rd round comp pick they could get. The relationship between his agent and Bruce isn't good, or else we wouldn't even be having this discussion.  Free agency is what Kirk wants and it's so close they can smell it.  While I'm sure Kirk has a short list of where he wants to go and sign a LTD, I'm sure both he and his agent want to meet with these teams, see their plans, see what the market bears and then make a decision from there.  The only way to get there is to make it clear that Cousins has no intentions to and will not sign a LTD with any team no matter what happens in the 2018 season.  This will certainly scare teams off from spending 34.5M for 2018 when the only guarantee to have him in 2019 is to pay in excess of 50M with a 4th franchise tag.

 

There is nothing wrong with the Redskins floating the tag and trade rumor hoping to drum up interest, but to actually proceed is very, very risky.

 

That risk doesn't exist because my entire premise is based on the skins already having a deal with another team.  If they don't have a deal with another team by the start of free agency, then they rescind the tag.  

 

Where we disagree is that you think there's no way Cousins would 1) sign the franchise tag and 2) be willing to negotiate a LTD with a team that trades for him on the tag.

 

Regarding signing the franchise tag (to finalize a trade) ....Think about what Cousins said in a recent interview before the Smith trade.  If they franchise tag me, then my agent says to sign right away.  He's been down this road twice now.  He's happy to guarantee another $34M for one more season.  That would give him almost $80M over three years and another likely $70-100M in guaranteed money when he finally signs a LTD somewhere.  Also, think about the outside pressure.  If Von Miller is tweeting congrats and if John Elway is on sportscenter talking about how excited they are, do you really think he'd put out an statement saying he won't sign the tag because he wants to be a unrestricted free agent?  That would be a bad look.  I think fans, players and the media could turn on him.  That's $34M in a single season he'd be turning down.  Finally, while many would agree the risk would be too high for the redskins to start free agency with his $34M on the books, there is the risk that he'd be missing out on potential destinations while teams are spending and he's on the sidelines.  

 

Very quick thought on that - If the game of chicken did happen (skins have a deal in place with a team to trade him but he refuses to sign the tag), I would think the skins would be able to talk to free agents and "agree to a deal" while the official cap dollars aren't available.  They can tell the agent/player, "look, there are two ways this plays out. 1) he'll sign the tag and the trade will be processed or 2) we give him until ____ date, and we'll rescind the tag".  So the money is there.  Teams never back out of "agreements".  Like the Smith trade.  If we backed out of it before 3/14, teams would never want to deal with us again.  

 

Anyways, I don't think it will even get to that point.  I think he'll sign the tag.  

 

Then, regarding the LTD with a team that tags him....All he's ever said is that he 1) wants to win, 2) wants more guaranteed money/years, and 3) wants to be wanted.  You can also tell that he's tired of the year to year drama too.  He has a baby now.  While he's certainly shown that he's happy to play on the tag, I'm sure he'd like to get this over with and have a single team that he knows he's leading for the next 4-5 years.  If a team like DEN, MINN, JAX or AZ (to a lessor degree) wanted to trade for him and pay him a fair market deal, then they'd be checking all three of his "wants".  I think it's more likely than not, that he would actually sign a LTD with one of those teams if they traded for him on the tag.  

 

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What happens if Kirk signs the tag and nobody bites on a trade?  You can't rescind a signed tag.

 

Kirk can get all his wants without playing nice, rendering the Redskins helpless because teams will know that they can't possibly carry his salary.  Why would Kirk want the Redskins to get something for him to go where he wants, when he could just go where he wants anyways?

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1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

What happens if Kirk signs the tag and nobody bites on a trade?  You can't rescind a signed tag.

 

Kirk can get all his wants without playing nice, rendering the Redskins helpless because teams will know that they can't possibly carry his salary.  Why would Kirk want the Redskins to get something for him to go where he wants, when he could just go where he wants anyways?

 

Kirk seems perfectly content to bet on himself.

 

Here is how I would handle this as his agent. I certainly don't sign immediately, and I let it be known loud and clear when I will sign - probably after a month or so. That sends the message to Denver, Cleveland, NY and company to keep their powder dry for a bit. It also utterly screws the Skins who simply can't do anything with his number on the books.

 

I'd be perfectly content to take the $34 million and compete with Smith for the starting job. At this point, his resume is established. A mediocre year in a clearly stupid situation isn't going to hurt his FA value NEXT year that much. And besides, he will enter FA at age 30 with nearly $80 million in the bank. At that point, if his salary drops to like $20 million or $18 million a year, who gives a damn?

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17 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

What happens if Kirk signs the tag and nobody bites on a trade?  You can't rescind a signed tag.

 

Kirk can get all his wants without playing nice, rendering the Redskins helpless because teams will know that they can't possibly carry his salary.  Why would Kirk want the Redskins to get something for him to go where he wants, when he could just go where he wants anyways?

 

Again, this is ONLY happening if there is already a deal in place with another team.  Like how the Alex Smith trade came together.  There is NO risk the skins get stuck with both Smith & Cousins.

 

12 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

Here is how I would handle this as his agent. I certainly don't sign immediately, and I let it be known loud and clear when I will sign - probably after a month or so. That sends the message to Denver, Cleveland, NY and company to keep their powder dry for a bit. It also utterly screws the Skins who simply can't do anything with his number on the books.

 

1) Do you really think those teams would be happy to wait a month during the start of free agency....so they would eventually have a chance to compete with the other teams to sign Kirk.  No chance.  It's the same risk that everyone says the Redskins would be crazy to take.

 

2) Kirk has said he'll sign the franchise tag immediately to lock in another $34M for one season.  He said he wants to one year stuff to end, but if it's $34M for one more season, so be it.

 

3) From my rant above, after the trade is announced and players are congratulating him, and Elway's on sportscenter, you still think he's going to say "No thanks, I want to be an unrestricted free agent."  I think that could have a negative impact for him.  

 

AND....if that did happen...then the skins can just rescind it anyways and still get the 3rd round comp pick.  They can do that at any time.  Maybe they are happy to get some "agreements in principal" with some free agents for a week.  Then rescind the tag and officially sign them a week later.  Crazier things have happened.  

 

Anyways, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.  We'll soon find out if it actually happens.  

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50 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I'm not worried that Smith is going to come in and be McNabb II.  I just don't see him lighting up the field as a passer without major improvements to the running game, a healthy Jordan Reed and another weapon at receiver.  While I think Bruce is a nimrod when it comes to building a team, I'd imagine guys like Jay are beating the drum to address the running back position at the least.

 

I don't think he has to light anything up to be honest. What I'm most excited about with this move is knowing we have a competent guy (you can argue all day if he's top-12, top-15, top-18) locked up at a decent price for five years. That gives us a large enough open window to add the things you've mentioned and build a team. 

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4 minutes ago, maddogtre said:

 

Again, this is ONLY happening if there is already a deal in place with another team.  Like how the Alex Smith trade came together.  There is NO risk the skins get stuck with both Smith & Cousins.

 

 

1) Do you really think those teams would be happy to wait a month during the start of free agency....so they would eventually have a chance to compete with the other teams to sign Kirk.  No chance.  It's the same risk that everyone says the Redskins would be crazy to take.

 

2) Kirk has said he'll sign the franchise tag immediately to lock in another $34M for one season.  He said he wants to one year stuff to end, but if it's $34M for one more season, so be it.

 

3) From my rant above, after the trade is announced and players are congratulating him, and Elway's on sportscenter, you still think he's going to say "No thanks, I want to be an unrestricted free agent."  I think that could have a negative impact for him.  

 

AND....if that did happen...then the skins can just rescind it anyways and still get the 3rd round comp pick.  They can do that at any time.  Maybe they are happy to get some "agreements in principal" with some free agents for a week.  Then rescind the tag and officially sign them a week later.  Crazier things have happened.  

 

Anyways, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.  We'll soon find out if it actually happens.  

 

After what trade is announced? Do you think Denver will just trade something for the one year franchise tag deal?

 

Kirk has to cooperate in a trade.

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10 minutes ago, maddogtre said:

 

Again, this is ONLY happening if there is already a deal in place with another team.  Like how the Alex Smith trade came together.  There is NO risk the skins get stuck with both Smith & Cousins.

 

This part I agree with. People calling it a gamble or game of chicken must think we'd apply the tag and then hope to broker a deal. I think (read: hope to God) we'd only consider applying the tag if we have agreement from all parties that Kirk will sign long-term and contract details hammered out. 

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This is crazy talk, if we tag Kirk he will drive his conversion van 75 miles per hour to Redskins Park to immediately sign it.

 

The big positive that could come from it is Bruce getting a pink slip after we embarrass ourselves and turn every player and agent against our team.

 

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2 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

This part I agree with. People calling it a gamble or game of chicken must think we'd apply the tag and then hope to broker a deal. I think (read: hope to God) we'd only consider applying the tag if we have agreement from all parties that Kirk will sign long-term and contract details hammered out. 

 

But why would Kirk agree to this?

1. Why would he limit his suitors from 6 or so to 1?

2. Why would he help the Skins?

3. Why would he hurt his knee team by making them give up an asset to get him?

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11 minutes ago, maddogtre said:

 

Again, this is ONLY happening if there is already a deal in place with another team.  Like how the Alex Smith trade came together.  There is NO risk the skins get stuck with both Smith & Cousins.

 

 

1) Do you really think those teams would be happy to wait a month during the start of free agency....so they would eventually have a chance to compete with the other teams to sign Kirk.  No chance.  It's the same risk that everyone says the Redskins would be crazy to take.

 

2) Kirk has said he'll sign the franchise tag immediately to lock in another $34M for one season.  He said he wants to one year stuff to end, but if it's $34M for one more season, so be it.

 

3) From my rant above, after the trade is announced and players are congratulating him, and Elway's on sportscenter, you still think he's going to say "No thanks, I want to be an unrestricted free agent."  I think that could have a negative impact for him.  

 

AND....if that did happen...then the skins can just rescind it anyways and still get the 3rd round comp pick.  They can do that at any time.  Maybe they are happy to get some "agreements in principal" with some free agents for a week.  Then rescind the tag and officially sign them a week later.  Crazier things have happened.  

 

Anyways, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.  We'll soon find out if it actually happens.  

 

He said he would sign immediately PRIOR to us 'acquiring' Smith.  He said that when he was unequivocally going to be the starter. 

 

The 2nd highlighted part isn't possible if you believe no. 2.  Once the tag is signed, you cannot rescind it, it's a binding guaranteed contract. 

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1 minute ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

After what trade is announced? Do you think Denver will just trade something for the one year franchise tag deal?

 

Kirk has to cooperate in a trade.

 

1) I think that there is a CHANCE (not likely) but a chance that a team will be willing to trade value for him on the one year deal.  Better than average starting QBs are the most precious asset in sports.  Think about the season Denver just had, mostly because of that position.  If they trade Aqib Talib then suddenly it's possible for them $ wise.  They have a vet roster.  If they don't think a rookie QB is the route they want to go, and if they think that Kirk is well above the other free agent options, then maybe they are willing to trade a 2nd or 3rd round pick for him.....even if the worst case scenario is he leaves a year later.  If any team does trade, and he does only play that one year, then the following year they will have that monster contract off the books and get a 3rd round comp pick.

 

2) It's not impossible that Kirk will be willing to agree with a team behind the scenes like the Alex Smith trade.  Let's say the skins are working the phone right now.  They come to Kirk and his agent and say "DEN, JAX & CLE are all willing to trade for you on the franchise tag.  They'd like to work out a LTD and think they can give you the deal you've been waiting for".  You just assume he'll say no and threaten to play chicken.  But that's just an assumption.  

 

 

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1 minute ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

But why would Kirk agree to this?

1. Why would he limit his suitors from 6 or so to 1?

2. Why would he help the Skins?

3. Why would he hurt his knee team by making them give up an asset to get him?

 

Oh, I have no true hope that this actually comes together. I'm just refuting the classification of this move as "risky" because I don't think they'll tag him unless it all does come together. Does that make sense? 

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2 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

But why would Kirk agree to this?

1. Why would he limit his suitors from 6 or so to 1?

 

Maybe he won't care if they meet his three "wants"....winners, guaranteed money, show him they want him.

3 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

2. Why would he help the Skins?

 

Maybe he doesn't care if he ends up helping the skins, but gets his three wants above.  Also, this avoids the potential chicken with Allen/Snyder.  

4 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

3. Why would he hurt his knee team by making them give up an asset to get him?

 

If the team tells him, "Look we want you, we're willing to give you everything you want. By trading ____ asset, we guarantee that we have you.  We're happy to pay that price.  Don't bother fighting with the skins.  They're crazy."   Maybe he'll listen.  

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3 minutes ago, maddogtre said:

 

1) I think that there is a CHANCE (not likely) but a chance that a team will be willing to trade value for him on the one year deal.  Better than average starting QBs are the most precious asset in sports.  Think about the season Denver just had, mostly because of that position.  If they trade Aqib Talib then suddenly it's possible for them $ wise.  They have a vet roster.  If they don't think a rookie QB is the route they want to go, and if they think that Kirk is well above the other free agent options, then maybe they are willing to trade a 2nd or 3rd round pick for him.....even if the worst case scenario is he leaves a year later.  If any team does trade, and he does only play that one year, then the following year they will have that monster contract off the books and get a 3rd round comp pick.

 

2) It's not impossible that Kirk will be willing to agree with a team behind the scenes like the Alex Smith trade.  Let's say the skins are working the phone right now.  They come to Kirk and his agent and say "DEN, JAX & CLE are all willing to trade for you on the franchise tag.  They'd like to work out a LTD and think they can give you the deal you've been waiting for".  You just assume he'll say no and threaten to play chicken.  But that's just an assumption.  

 

 

Actually it is.  This would be considered collusion since he's not under contract for 2018 and we cant apply the tag until March 14th, or at least thats the way I understand it.  Kirk is not legally allowed to field offers from other teams until he either signs a transition tag, or he becomes a free agent.  Alex Smith was still under contract so his 'right's are still considered to belong to the Chiefs.  

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