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Alex Smith Trade Thread (Details Inside)

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Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I just stopped right here.

 

We're never going to agree on anything if you truly believe that.  The Philly roster is better than the Redskins roster hands down, not even in the ballpark.

 

I appreciate Pederson's willingness to adjust and doing so with Foles led to the ultimate prize.  But I'm not about to get carried away and make this about coaching.  The Eagles won because they put together a monster roster and have depth.  Sure coaching plays a role, but it's not even close to the primary reason for their success.

Have you not seen how wide open their receivers have been throughout the playoffs on third and 4th down? Do you think that's the players? The Eagles had Nick Foles, Nelson Agholar, a rookie running back (Clement), rookie kicker, no cornerbacks worth mentioning, Tory Smith, a backup left tackle named Vaitai. Their star players are Wentz, Jeffrey, Jason Peters, Zach Ertz, Malcolm Jenkins, Fletcher Cox, Brandon Graham and an injured LB named Hicks. Wentz, Peters and Hicks were all lost for the season and the Eagles didn't skip a beat. That's tremendous coaching...keeping the team believing that the next man up will do the job. And adjusting your offense accordingly to fit Foles and give Vaitai help. The Eagles 3rd down play calls are off the charts good...it's why they won last night. 

You can disagree all you want but if you put both healthy teams on the field give me the Eagles and their coaching staff over the Skins and that's the difference.

Listen to the former players and analysts on Sirius NFL radio and they're all saying the same thing, about how the coaching staff put the players in positions to succeed. 

I can rattle off just as many impact players on the Redskins roster in case you don't think the Skins roster matches up: Cousins, Thompson, Trent Williams, Kerrigan, Preston Smith, Jonathon Allen, Norman, Fuller, Swearinger, Jordan Reed, Vernon Davis, It's not the roster, it's the play calling and overall preparation of the team. We are 0-4 under Gruden/ Cousins in season openers and that's when the team is basically at full strength. That doesn't happen on the Eagles, they are much better coached than the Skins are.  

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3 minutes ago, TMK9973 said:

ok - I get the argument now.  But here is a guy that refused to sign a LTD for 2 years because he wants to be a FA and this year said he wouldn't even talk to the Skins until FA.  So this idea that KC will now say "I'll start doing a LTD NOW - Even though what I Really want is to hit FA and if Im tagged that means i get 34m this year and a GUARANTEED Free Agency next year" is just way to far fetched.  

Well, unfortunately for him, the tag is binding. And, if he is tagged, he'll essentially lose a year if he doesn't sign tender. He just can't afford that financially (relatively speaking) or professionally (to much to loses sitting out at 29 years old). He'll have to sign, he will be traded and those are the premises the Redskins are likely working under. 

 

I'd say simple concept.

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kingdaddy is correct.  This Eagles team is worse than the one that lost to the Patriots in 04.  

 

In fact, the whole league seems sort of like **** to me, but whatever.

 

The fact that Snyder is so terrified of his own fans he won't do what's right and innovative (like firing Gruden, hiring McVay) shows you that this will NOT change unless Snyder says "eff it." 

 

So what I'm saying is, besides hiring FOOTBALL people, Snyder needs to have the guts to force changes.  Because we should have let the mediocrity go, and hired McVay and brought in a real GM.  

 

Rebuilds don't take 10 years, this is ridiculous.

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4 minutes ago, Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin said:

kingdaddy is correct.  This Eagles team is worse than the one that lost to the Patriots in 04.  

 

In fact, the whole league seems sort of like **** to me, but whatever.

 

The fact that Snyder is so terrified of his own fans he won't do what's right and innovative (like firing Gruden, hiring McVay) shows you that this will NOT change unless Snyder says "eff it." 

 

So what I'm saying is, besides hiring FOOTBALL people, Snyder needs to have the guts to force changes.  Because we should have let the mediocrity go, and hired McVay and brought in a real GM.  

 

Rebuilds don't take 10 years, this is ridiculous.

I agree with the idea of rebuilds not taking a decade.

 

Fact is, NFL is on 5 year cycles for most teams. Few exceptions are those teams with elite QBs.

 

But, just the way rookie contracts are comprised and free agency, the idea of drafting BPA to me is losing luster. You can't just continually draft depth and think they'll be on your team for 8-10 years... NEVER. Once this rookie deals are done and a player has any value, free agency pillages them. Therefore, IMO, teams need to work in 5-7 year windows. And given the parity in the NFL, not hard to be competitive.

 

Frankly, I feel drafting need is becoming more important because in 3 years, the face of the team is completely different. Being risky is more important than ever. Just ask Doug Pederson about taking chances. Brave new world man

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18 minutes ago, Bonez3 said:

Well, unfortunately for him, the tag is binding. And, if he is tagged, he'll essentially lose a year if he doesn't sign tender. He just can't afford that financially (relatively speaking) or professionally (to much to loses sitting out at 29 years old). He'll have to sign, he will be traded and those are the premises the Redskins are likely working under. 

 

I'd say simple concept.

ok  - We just disagree. He can sign the tender but refuse to sign a LTD with anyone.  Financially its not a issue. Its 34m.  Combined with the 24 this year and 20 last year and he has made $78m over last 3 years. So it comes down to who is bluffing more. The skins sinking 51m into 2 QB for a year, or Cousin being the backup QB for a year.  

I think Cousins has already shown over and over and over again that he is willing to bet on himself.  

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1 minute ago, TMK9973 said:

ok  - We just disagree. He can sign the tender but refuse to sign a LTD with anyone.  Financially its not a issue. Its 34m.  Combined with the 24 this year and 20 last year and he has made $78m over last 3 years. So it comes down to who is bluffing more. The skins sinking 51m into 2 QB for a year, or Cousin being the backup QB for a year.  

I think Cousins has already shown over and over and over again that he is willing to bet on himself.  

We don't disagree, I see your point. The presumption is the team trading is willing to assume this risk, which I feel is low because he wants a LTD, this tag solidifies that even more.

 

QB is king a 3 teams have more cap space than they know what to do with

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2 minutes ago, TMK9973 said:

ok  - We just disagree. He can sign the tender but refuse to sign a LTD with anyone.  Financially its not a issue. Its 34m.  Combined with the 24 this year and 20 last year and he has made $78m over last 3 years. So it comes down to who is bluffing more. The skins sinking 51m into 2 QB for a year, or Cousin being the backup QB for a year.  

I think Cousins has already shown over and over and over again that he is willing to bet on himself.  

 

 

And if this scenario plays out where he's on the team.... how soon is Redskin Nation gonna be calling for him to play?  The media?  How long before Jay puts him in, or Dan shows up in Jays office?  You wanna talk about QB drama?  Are you kidding me?  Honestly having him in the building is detrimental in itself... It would destroy this team even further if we end up having both of those guys in the locker room. 

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3 minutes ago, Bonez3 said:

We don't disagree, I see your point. The presumption is the team trading is willing to assume this risk, which I feel is low because he wants a LTD, this tag solidifies that even more.

 

QB is king a 3 teams have more cap space than they know what to do with

If that did this on his first tag -I would agree.   

But this is his 3rd tag. Meaning KC knows that he can NEVER be tagged again.  The man has said he wants to the hit the open market. He is so close to being able to hit the open market with no team able to stop him.  This is what he has always wanted.

When a man tells you who he is and what he wants -believe him.  

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Is it just me, or is it actually hilarious that some Redskins fans want to make others believe that the Redskins can afford to Tag Cousins at 34M for a year and even if he doesn't sign the tag who cares because he can just ride the pine?

 

When these same people were up in arms about how the Redskins couldn't possibly afford to pay Kirk over 25M a year on a long term contract just like last ****ing month.

 

:rofl89:

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it's easier to say you won;t sign a long term deal when you're on a team you don't want to be with than it is when you're on a team you want to stay with

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38 minutes ago, Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin said:

kingdaddy is correct.  This Eagles team is worse than the one that lost to the Patriots in 04.  

 

In fact, the whole league seems sort of like **** to me, but whatever.

 

The fact that Snyder is so terrified of his own fans he won't do what's right and innovative (like firing Gruden, hiring McVay) shows you that this will NOT change unless Snyder says "eff it." 

 

So what I'm saying is, besides hiring FOOTBALL people, Snyder needs to have the guts to force changes.  Because we should have let the mediocrity go, and hired McVay and brought in a real GM.  

 

Rebuilds don't take 10 years, this is ridiculous.

Teams are looking at John Defillipo of the Eagles as a potential OC....we should too. They also have Frank Reich who has done a great job with Wentz and Foles. Let's not forget that the Redskins is the first head coaching job Gruden has ever had and he has to be questioned on how unsuccessful he has been to this point. Excuses, such as injuries, are for losers. The Eagles lost their starting QB and starting left tackle and just beat the evil empire. It can be done if you have the right kind of envionment and the right brain trust. I agree, Snyder needs to do a better job of continuing to evaluate his management and coaching staff. Good point.

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1 minute ago, carex said:

it's easier to say you won;t sign a long term deal when you're on a team you don't want to be with than it is when you're on a team you want to stay with

Maybe im naive -But I really don't think Kirk Cousins DIDNT want to play for the skins.

I think he wants to hit free agency.  I dont think he really felt strongly about staying with the skins or leaving them.    

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5 minutes ago, TMK9973 said:

Maybe im naive -But I really don't think Kirk Cousins DIDNT want to play for the skins.

I think he wants to hit free agency.  I dont think he really felt strongly about staying with the skins or leaving them.    

 

then, he thinks he's someone who deserves special treatment

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10 minutes ago, carex said:

it's easier to say you won;t sign a long term deal when you're on a team you don't want to be with than it is when you're on a team you want to stay with

 

captain-obvious-approves.jpg

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17 minutes ago, TMK9973 said:

Maybe im naive -But I really don't think Kirk Cousins DIDNT want to play for the skins.

I think he wants to hit free agency.  I dont think he really felt strongly about staying with the skins or leaving them.    

 

After they low-balled and insulted him, he had no intention of coming back. He clearly refused to negotiate with Allen--and why should he. Allen never had any intention of giving him a fair deal.

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30 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Excuses, such as injuries, are for losers. 

Only point i will quibble is that when injuries are to nearly half your roster, that isn't an excuse, it's a fact.

Injuries are the great equalizer in sports, but they are not an 'excuse' since saying it is would say that you believe that a team fielding 3rd string players and guys signed off the street should not miss a step. if we missed a couple guys here and there and had to dig down into our second string, i'd never say a word.. but this year? That is a whole other level. No one is going to compete with that many week 1 starters missing significant time and/ or heading to IR.

 

Assuming a team will perform at the same level after losing that many players is ludicrous.

 

~Bang

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17 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

captain-obvious-approves.jpg

 

people are kind of overlooking that.  Like yeah, if the Skins franchise him and try to trade him somewhere he doesn't want to go yeah, he can be a little ****.  But if they try to send him to a team where he wants to go...

 

Kirk: Hey you know if you just wait the Skins will have to pull the tag and I can negotiate with you freely, you won't owe them anything .

 

Broncos/Vikings/whoever's GM: Yeah we get that, but we'd like you here now and we'd like not having to worry about someone else outbidding us.

 

Kirk: So it's not just the Redskins who try to keep guys from being free agents?

 

Broncos/Vikings/whoevers's GM: How long have you been in this league?

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1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

Have you not seen how wide open their receivers have been throughout the playoffs on third and 4th down? Do you think that's the players? The Eagles had Nick Foles, Nelson Agholar, a rookie running back (Clement), rookie kicker, no cornerbacks worth mentioning, Tory Smith, a backup left tackle named Vaitai. Their star players are Wentz, Jeffrey, Jason Peters, Zach Ertz, Malcolm Jenkins, Fletcher Cox, Brandon Graham and an injured LB named Hicks. Wentz, Peters and Hicks were all lost for the season and the Eagles didn't skip a beat. That's tremendous coaching...keeping the team believing that the next man up will do the job. And adjusting your offense accordingly to fit Foles and give Vaitai help. The Eagles 3rd down play calls are off the charts good...it's why they won last night. 

You can disagree all you want but if you put both healthy teams on the field give me the Eagles and their coaching staff over the Skins and that's the difference.

Listen to the former players and analysts on Sirius NFL radio and they're all saying the same thing, about how the coaching staff put the players in positions to succeed. 

I can rattle off just as many impact players on the Redskins roster in case you don't think the Skins roster matches up: Cousins, Thompson, Trent Williams, Kerrigan, Preston Smith, Jonathon Allen, Norman, Fuller, Swearinger, Jordan Reed, Vernon Davis, It's not the roster, it's the play calling and overall preparation of the team. We are 0-4 under Gruden/ Cousins in season openers and that's when the team is basically at full strength. That doesn't happen on the Eagles, they are much better coached than the Skins are.  

As I said in my response to you, coaching certainly has something to do with it.  But to act like the rosters are near equal and that the coaching in Philadelphia is so good that they are capable of getting their team to win 6 more games, 2 playoff games and a Super Bowl as a result....well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.  Every single team in the league has some impact players on the roster.  But do those impact players mesh? and more importantly is the depth of the team a strength?  Just because you don't know a players name doesn't mean they aren't good players.

 

Jay Gruden's offense gets guys wide opens at times as well.  Getting wide open is also about more than scheme.  Receivers and tight ends also have to be capable of creating separation on their own.  Being able to run the ball also helps.

 

While analysts are giving credit where it's due to the coaching staff, I can assure you there isn't a chance in hell that they think the only difference between the Washington Redskins and the Philadelphia Eagles is that Jay Gruden and staff are bums while Pederson is the next Lombardi.

 

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Bang said:

Only point i will quibble is that when injuries are to nearly half your roster, that isn't an excuse, it's a fact.

Injuries are the great equalizer in sports, but they are not an 'excuse' since saying it is would say that you believe that a team fielding 3rd string players and guys signed off the street should not miss a step. if we missed a couple guys here and there and had to dig down into our second string, i'd never say a word.. but this year? That is a whole other level. No one is going to compete with that many week 1 starters missing significant time and/ or heading to IR.

 

Assuming a team will perform at the same level after losing that many players is ludicrous.

 

~Bang

 

Redskins were the 8th most injured team and the 5th most impacted team. Also notice the fairly direct correlation to injuries and making the playoffs. People can say injuries do not matter - "It's part of football! Man up!" But that's actually bull****. his chart shows that part of being successful is staying healthy. There are always exceptions - but those are just that - exceptions. 

 

image.png.bd469ad3b46315b4fb1617f157e272b4.png

 

 

 

 

image.png

 

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13 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

As I said in my response to you, coaching certainly has something to do with it.  But to act like the rosters are near equal and that the coaching in Philadelphia is so good that they are capable of getting their team to win 6 more games, 2 playoff games and a Super Bowl as a result....well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.  Every single team in the league has some impact players on the roster.  But do those impact players mesh? and more importantly is the depth of the team a strength?  Just because you don't know a players name doesn't mean they aren't good players.

 

Jay Gruden's offense gets guys wide opens at times as well.  Getting wide open is also about more than scheme.  Receivers and tight ends also have to be capable of creating separation on their own.  Being able to run the ball also helps.

 

While analysts are giving credit where it's due to the coaching staff, I can assure you there isn't a chance in hell that they think the only difference between the Washington Redskins and the Philadelphia Eagles is that Jay Gruden and staff are bums while Pederson is the next Lombardi.

 

 

 

 

I have to agree with you... As much as it sucks, they're a better team right now.  Clutch turnovers, powerful lines, effective run game... all things we struggle with that have less to do with coaching, and more to do with the grunts on the field.   The coaching has had its suspected moments, and I will be the first to say that Gruden's playcalling has been suspect at times, but that's more about him knowing his personnel and adjusting.  That said... the on field execution and talent has been a problem.  It's appearing to look a bit better, but we're still not a team that can find a way to force a fumble to seal a game.  We can't seem to be better in the sense of making that 1 play to finish.  The Eagles finished the game, and it was plays by the guys on the field that did it.  

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People are underselling the Eagles talent.

 

On offense they had the #1 rated OL in the league by PFF. They have three really good RBs in Ajayi, Blount, and the rookie Clement. All three are better than any on our roster save maybe Thompson who's better than Clement and a different back than Blount. They have three quality WRs in Jeffrey(who's a stud but wasn't utilized well in Chicago with no QB), Smith(proven vet deep threat), and Aghalor(inconsistent but talented, remember he was a 1st round pick). Ertz is a stud TE. And in Foles they have a QB who has proven in certain systems he can excel.

 

Then on D, they are LOADED up front. Cox, Graham, Burnett, Long, the list goes on and on. They have 5+ quality pass rushers. We have like...two in comparison. Jenkins in the secondary is a beast, one of the best Safeties in the long. Their CBs might be average, but you're not gonna have Pro Bowlers everywhere.

 

We don't even sniff their talent base. Not even remotely close.

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7 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

People are underselling the Eagles talent.

 

On offense they had the #1 rated OL in the league by PFF. They have three really good RBs in Ajayi, Blount, and the rookie Clement. All three are better than any on our roster save maybe Thompson who's better than Clement and a different back than Blount. They have three quality WRs in Jeffrey(who's a stud but wasn't utilized well in Chicago with no QB), Smith(proven vet deep threat), and Aghalor(inconsistent but talented, remember he was a 1st round pick). Ertz is a stud TE. And in Foles they have a QB who has proven in certain systems he can excel.

 

Then on D, they are LOADED up front. Cox, Graham, Burnett, Long, the list goes on and on. They have 5+ quality pass rushers. We have like...two in comparison. Jenkins in the secondary is a beast, one of the best Safeties in the long. Their CBs might be average, but you're not gonna have Pro Bowlers everywhere.

 

We don't even sniff their talent base. Not even remotely close.

Right, this league is not about who the smartest coaches are, it's a players league. Just because guys don't stick out as "impact players" doesn't mean they don't collectively make an impact.  Coaches absolutely play a role in playing to their rosters strengths, scheme, and so on.  But the Eagles didn't win the Super Bowl primarily because Pederson has found out how to win with an average roster.

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5 hours ago, carex said:

 

people are kind of overlooking that.  Like yeah, if the Skins franchise him and try to trade him somewhere he doesn't want to go yeah, he can be a little ****.  But if they try to send him to a team where he wants to go...

 

Kirk: Hey you know if you just wait the Skins will have to pull the tag and I can negotiate with you freely, you won't owe them anything .

 

Broncos/Vikings/whoever's GM: Yeah we get that, but we'd like you here now and we'd like not having to worry about someone else outbidding us.

 

Kirk: So it's not just the Redskins who try to keep guys from being free agents?

 

Broncos/Vikings/whoevers's GM: How long have you been in this league?

 

I get what you are saying. And maybe you are right. Maybe the team can force a trade. But I disagree with you on the impact of not having CAP available fro the best part of FA. If it were say $10M or something, then fine. But it will be $34M .Maybe there are no FA they really want. But I highly doubt that. And you need to be prepared for that unexpected player that becomes available. Also, I think you may be underestimating the impact this may have on other players. We could become even more of a last resort and only if they pay crazy money destination like we were  when Vinnie was here. 

 

If he does not sign the tag they cannot trade him. That also takes him out of the prime FA period so it would be a game of chicken. So far, they have tried this twice with Kirk and his agent and they have yet to blink. I guess he could sign it. But I just do not see a team looking for a $34M one year rental, even if they have the CAP. Of course what you say is possible- but just not very likely at all.

 

I give it a <10% chance of yielding anything. So for me, the possible draft pick is just not worth the potential ill will with other players, the lost opportunities during free agency, and the continuation of this whole drama. Please, let's just cut our losses and move the on! 

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9 hours ago, Bonez3 said:

Few things...

 

The Skins can fit him under the cap at the expense of being inactive during the early part of fee agency, whopdedamndo. Not a big loss there IMO

 

The Skins can tag him Feb 20th, giving teams 3 weeks to marinate the idea of a trade and such. So, come 3/14, the details will be well thought out for interested suitors. We'll know in the first couple days where we stand. If nobody bit, you throw the low ball offer out there, 3rd rounder this year. Phones start ringing off the hook.

 

Lastly, the 'hardball theory' for Kurt- The idea he would refuse to sign tender to wait out process and have offer rescinded doesn't seem to make sense financially. He'll be getting a 34 million dollar deal- which the Skins would never fulfill or nor should they worry because a team would trade for him eventually as noted above. Kurt can bank on a team taking him with that number (with obvious hopes to restructure into LTD with that 34 mil as leverage), makes him signing it a extraordinary position of strength no matter what. 

 

I can see how this can be a near seamless process with little risk because there are multiple teams that desperately need a QB like him. Namely, the Browns who have multiple picks in the first 2 rounds

We actually can't just tag him and do nothing. We have maybe 47-48 mil after signing Dunbar and Foster, 34.5 mil would go to the Franchise tag and I can't see any projection of Smith's first year cap hit that would be lower than 13 mil (god help us if they backload that deal that badly). We also have to tender our RFAs (Nsekhe and Everett). Anyway you slice it, we would have to create room to carry Cousins.

And it really doesn't matter at all if you consider it "whopdedamndo" to not be able to participate in the first few weeks of FA (which includes being unable to sign our own). What matters is how Bruce and Co feel about that, and I really doubt they share that attitude.

 

Again, the idea was Cousins trying to force the team into drop the tag. It doesn't matter how early you start talking trade, you can't complete anything until Kirk signs it. And it is beyond question that it is in his best interest to hit the market unrestricted, so pretending he would jump at the chance to sign the 34.5 mil tag is silly.

 

Would a team trade for Cousins for 1 year at that price, with him saying he wouldn't negotiate? Probably, not definitely. The better question is, would anyone sacrifice enough for that scenario to have been worth the effort and risk that came with it?

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If Jay fails next year.  Frank Reich should be the next coach of the Skins.  He is the Eagles offensive coordinator.  Now that we have Alex Smith as our qb.  Plus, they run west coast as well.

 

Jay coaches scared.  Has to gall him that McVay was coach of year.   Pederson Super Bowl coach after two years.  And, Klye had San Fran hottest team in league after starting Jimmy G.

 

Jay feeling the pressure.

 

 

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