Alex Smith Trade Thread (Details Inside)

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

That's a cop out. McCartney is Kirk's employee not the other way around. The buck stops with Cousins.

I don't actually mind them deciding, "No interviews unless you show me some green." I don't think it says all that much, but it does suggest that Kirk wants to milk every cow he comes across. 

 

It would be just as easy to say. Kirk's there to enjoy the game and will only do a limited number of interviews. Tying it to money is a little crass.

 

Two points

 

A.  If there is something to the noise that Kirk and his agent thinks Bruce is a douche.  And there is plenty of material to work off of on that front.  Why should Kirk and or his agent bend backwards for the FO?  The dude is the President and defacto GM of the team.   If you don't care for the guy running the team -- that's not an easy place to come down from.   That has to color almost everything.  If I am negotiating a contract and I don't like my boss -- the deal would have to be very special for me to take it.

 

B. As Craig Hoffman said today on air and many others, too -- the kicker here is people can talk about Kirk is greedy, doesn't want to be here -- but the bottom line is the FO never gave Kirk a competitive offer to shoot down.  The idea that 25 million wasn't enough and he wanted bigger or whatever to stay here -- we will never know since he never got that offer.  

[Skinsinparadise]

On 2/2/2018 at 10:38 PM, Thinking Skins said:

I'm starting to really not like Cooley. When word was that wrs didn't like Cousins, we get nothing. Now Cousins is on his way out and were hearing this

 

 

 

I listened to the segment.  Cooley gives his whole rap on players typically good and bad.  He does it with Norman, Trent everyone.  On Kirk his global view is he's very good and will keep getting better.  He's upset that he's gone.  He was just spitballing speculating that Jay wanted Kirk to be more aggressive.

 

He likes Alex Smith.  He thinks he's a downgrade over Kirk.  He and Sheehan talked about the irony about if there is issues with Kirk being too conservative, they went with a QB with a reputation for being even more conservative than Kirk. 

[kingdaddy]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I listened to the segment.  Cooley gives his whole rap on players typically good and bad.  He does it with Norman, Trent everyone.  On Kirk his global view is he's very good and will keep getting better.  He's upset that he's gone.  He was just spitballing speculating that Jay wanted Kirk to be more aggressive.

 

He likes Alex Smith.  He thinks he's a downgrade over Kirk.  He and Sheehan talked about the irony about if there is issues with Kirk being too conservative, they went with a QB with a reputation for being even more conservative than Kirk. 

I look at how Alex Smith stepped up and won the game vs the Skins on MNF by leading his team down the field for a TD while KC had the game and could not produce the TD. I know KC threw a catchable ball to Doctson but the fact is we only needed a few yards for the first down in that situation. Smith is a smarter, more confident QB than KC is in my opinion and will beat you in more ways that KC can. All that being said, I still hope we get a rookie QB in the middle rounds that can be a starter for us down the road. Neither KC or Alex Smith are all that special but both are solid NFL QB's.

[Burgold]

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Two points

 

A.  If there is something to the noise that Kirk and his agent thinks Bruce is a douche.  And there is plenty of material to work off of on that front.  Why should Kirk and or his agent bend backwards for the FO?  The dude is the President and defacto GM of the team.   If you don't care for the guy running the team -- that's not an easy place to come down from.   That has to color almost everything.  If I am negotiating a contract and I don't like my boss -- the deal would have to be very special for me to take it.

My post didn't have anything to do with Bruce vs. Kirk. I agree that Kirk had a number of good reasons to think Bruce is a rat. I also don't see Kirk going out of his way to help the 'skins.

 

What my post was about was Kirk saying he would only participate in interviews where the outlet paid him. He'd do no freebies. The argument had been made that noble Kirk wasn't interested in money. The fact that he would only do paid interviews (rather than limiting his interviews) seems to suggest money matters to him... even the pennies. BSF defended Cousins, arguing that decision wasn't on Kirk's head because his agent likely advised him to do that. I countered that that was a cop out and Kirk's decision was his to make and not his agent's.

 

It's a really insignificant point and minor insight.

[Skinsinparadise]

1. Jason La Canfora‏Verified account @JasonLaCanfora 17m17 minutes ago

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   Skins pres Bruce Allen has been speaking to rival execs about possibly tagging Cousins. They don't see the logic. Seems overly personal

    
2.  

   Jason La Canfora‏Verified account @JasonLaCanfora 30m30 minutes ago

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   Cousins's camp could make it clear not doing a lot-term deal w/other teams, holds up $36M in cap space by not signing. It's a weak threat

    
3.  

   Jason La Canfora‏Verified account @JasonLaCanfora 31m31 minutes ago

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   Skins do some silly, petty things, but stooping to tag-and-trade Cousins wouldn't fly. They'd get grievance and Cousins could block trade...

 

3 minutes ago, Burgold said:

My post didn't have anything to do with Bruce vs. Kirk. I agree that Kirk had a number of good reasons to think Bruce is a rat. I also don't see Kirk going out of his way to help the 'skins.

 

OK I was filtering in some of your other posts where Kirk takes some blame.  If I recall its 65% Bruce.  35% Kirk?  Then, I thought you've ssaid in the past is about money driving Kirk.  I was saying in response.  Money of course drives any contract.  But the idea that Bruce has been potentially a douche during the negotiation I think potentially is a big part of the soup.  

[Burgold]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

1.  

OK I was filtering in some of your other posts where Kirk takes some blame.  If I recall its 65% Bruce.  35% Kirk?  Then, I thought you've ssaid in the past is about money driving Kirk.  I was saying in response.  Money of course drives any contract.  But the idea that Bruce has been potentially a douche during the negotiation I think potentially is a big part of the soup.  

That's fair. I think that ratio of blame is about right. And yeah, if asked directly I think I would answer that the money is a key driver for Kirk. Money in pro athletics is often confused for respect. I think Bruce being a jerk, a rat, and an idiot certainly is a part of it.

 

Hell, if I was the negotiator, at the very least I would have practiced saying "Kirk" before going on the radio or TV so it didn't come out as "Curt" Whether that was meant as a slight originally or not, by the tenth time it felt like a slap in Cousins' face. The PR letter after failing to sign Kirk to a LTD was an outrageously stupid and douchey buring of the bridge.

[Est.1974]

Bottom line is how badly/quickly does another team want clarity on its QB position.

 

As an example, rumor that Kirk likes the Vikings. If true, and they want him, how do they play that. Do they wait until open FA to fight over him? They have a bus load of QBs to ship out if they get him. They can't risk offloading them all until they get him. So do they sit on those QBs until the middle of March...

 

There is a chance a GM jumps the line and bites. After all, we are talking about a unique FA situation here, aren't we. Talk is Kirk is the biggest thing heading to FA ever.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, Burgold said:

BSF defended Cousins, arguing that decision wasn't on Kirk's head because his agent likely advised him to do that. I countered that that was a cop out and Kirk's decision was his to make and not his agent's.

I wasn't really defending him because there is nothing to defend.  I could care less what appearances guys get paid for and have no idea what all goes into determining that kind of stuff.  I just assume that he's been following his agents direction on every move he makes.  He makes it very clear that he trusts and respects his agent a great deal.  I'd imagine that payment for brief appearances is a drop in the bucket compared to what he's made and is set to make.  For all we know he's sending that money directly to charity.  Or perhaps he plans to buy out the shake shack.  I'm just sure there is some strategy there outside of him wanting a few extra bucks.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

I look at how Alex Smith stepped up and won the game vs the Skins on MNF by leading his team down the field for a TD while KC had the game and could not produce the TD. I know KC threw a catchable ball to Doctson but the fact is we only needed a few yards for the first down in that situation. Smith is a smarter, more confident QB than KC is in my opinion and will beat you in more ways that KC can. All that being said, I still hope we get a rookie QB in the middle rounds that can be a starter for us down the road. Neither KC or Alex Smith are all that special but both are solid NFL QB's.

 

I like Alex Smith so I am not going to rain on him here.  But if you read about what Alex Smith detractors have said about him -- its just about verbatim what Kirk critics have said about him.  He fails in the clutch.  You got a ceiling with him where you are never going to get to the big dance.  You need to have all the moving parts working around him -- he didn't really reach much higher than above average status until he got one of the best running backs in the league and arguably the best deep threat in the league last year.

 

Alex's background and even personality is about as close as it gets to Kirk.  Ditto the criticism of him as a player as to detractors.  We even got some Chief fans on these threads enjoying warning us about it.

 

Having said that, I do expect some Alex Smith love initially because hey he's not Kirk.  So he must be better?   But if some of these criticisms leveled at Kirk were genuine (and not driven by other things), I would figure Alex Smith is a nightmare choice for some. Because reputation wise he's just about Kirk's identical twin.  If anything Kirk light. 

 

I like Alex Smith.  Like Kirk, he needs a running game.  Arguably its even more important for him.  Like Kirk, he needs weapons.  Like Kirk, I am not blaming him for every loss.   Like Kirk, he's not Aaron Rodgers and I am not blaming him for that.  Unlike Kirk, Alex doesn't have all the history here with Shanny and the predecessor QB so he's not wrapped up in that soap opera.  I gather that will build him some good will from day 1.  And that's good. 

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, Burgold said:

That's fair. I think that ratio of blame is about right. And yeah, if asked directly I think I would answer that the money is a key driver for Kirk. Money in pro athletics is often confused for respect. I think Bruce being a jerk, a rat, and an idiot certainly is a part of it.

 

If you don't like or trust the guy running the team.  Then it puts you in an odd situation.  My theory is hey he likes the team, Jay, etc.  But he can take or leave staying with a team when he doesn't care for the guy who has the keys to the kingdom as to the future of the team.  That makes sense to me.

 

At that point, why bend backwards to stay?  You are at best ambivalent about it all.   Kirk to me would only get partial blame if he felt that he was obligated to stay.  But why should he feel that way?  If you are negotiating to buy a house and think the seller's real estate agent is a douche -- then unless you have to have that house, you move on.

 

We are still hearing today about the bad blood between Kirk's agent and Bruce.  The only foggy thing for me is it Kirk and Bruce or Kirk's agent and Bruce or both?  That story changes depending on who is telling it.  Grant Paulsen said this morning that the relationship between Kirk and Bruce is cold.  Whatever that means.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Something I want to point out that I haven't seen mentioned once in the Alex thread (now, I stay away from this redundant trash as much as I possibly can ).

 

Alex was well on his way to taking the Niners to the Super Bowl.  His performance against the vaunted NYG defense in the NFC title game was nothing short of spectacular.  He made every single play in that game.  Every single one.  Tough throws into tight windows.  Runs.  All of it.

 

If not for a muffed punt, the Niners would've made the Super Bowl BECAUSE of Alex Smith.  Did he have a good defense?  Yes.  Did that good defense help him shred the NYG defense in crunch time?  Nope.  

[OVCChairman]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I like Alex Smith so I am not going to rain on him here.  But if you read about what Alex Smith detractors have said about him -- its just about verbatim what Kirk critics have said about him.  He fails in the clutch.  You got a ceiling with him where you are never going to get to the big dance.  You need to have all the moving parts working around him -- he didn't really reach much higher than above average status until he got one of the best running backs in the league and arguably the best deep threat in the league last year.

 

Alex's background and even personality is about as close as it gets to Kirk.  Ditto the criticism of him as a player as to detractors.  We even got some Chief fans on these threads enjoying warning us about it.

 

Having said that, I do expect some Alex Smith love initially because hey he's not Kirk.  So he must be better?   But if some of these criticisms leveled at Kirk were genuine (and not driven by other things), I would figure Alex Smith is a nightmare choice for some. Because reputation wise he's just about Kirk's identical twin.  If anything Kirk light. 

 

I like Alex Smith.  Like Kirk, he needs a running game.  Arguably its even more important for him.  Like Kirk, he needs weapons.  Like Kirk, I am not blaming him for every loss.   Like Kirk, he's not Aaron Rodgers and I am not blaming him for that.  Unlike Kirk, Alex doesn't have all the history here with Shanny and the predecessor QB so he's not wrapped up in that soap opera.  I gather that will build him some good will from day 1.  And that's good. 

He looked pretty good against us, game tied, :50 to go.  He also finally had a deep threat.  He's never had one until now.... Kirk was above average on the deep ball when he had Jackson too.  Kirk also short armed more than a few times last year causing a contested ball or an acrobatic catch to need to be made...  

I agree with you, I like Smith too.  I also like the ability to pay him less than we would have needed to pay Kirk, and the ability to add that deep threat we appear to need. 

[actorguy1]

For those who say it’s petty and lame to tag Cousins,then they must have felt awful about how the Patriots did the same thing to Matt Cassel in 2009. Didn’t bother me one bit and neither would this. 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

He looked pretty good against us, game tied, :50 to go.  He also finally had a deep threat.  He's never had one until now.... Kirk was above average on the deep ball when he had Jackson too.  Kirk also short armed more than a few times last year causing a contested ball or an acrobatic catch to need to be made...  

I agree with you, I like Smith too.  I also like the ability to pay him less than we would have needed to pay Kirk, and the ability to add that deep threat we appear to need. 

 

That was one game for Alex.   It's not hard to look clutch against our defense late in the game.  That wasn't a here we go again with another late comeback from the comeback king Alex Smith.  Kirk has had comebacks. 

 

I've liked and watched Alex among other QBs in the league over the years.  But like I said his rep with his critics has been almost word for word what people kill Kirk for.  He's not a money guy, doesn't play well with the game on the line.  And needs a big time supporting cast.  Personally I think that's harsh about Alex.  I think it was harsh on Kirk, too.    There are other people responsible for whether you win a tight game.

 

Josh Doctson makes a diving catch to help beat Seattle -- Kirk is clutch!  Doctson drops a well thrown ball in the end zone against KC -- Kirk let us down! 

 

I hear you on the money but I am guessing that gives us an extra 4 million -- I don't think that buys us the deep threat.   I'd agree with your point if they started over with Colt and drafted a guy.  Then we could go nuts in FA.

 

As for cap room, to me paying 23.5 million versus lets say 27.5 million is yawn.  If that was the exchange in FA, I'd dig it a lot more.  But to do it and lose a top half of the draft third rounder and arguably your 2nd best young defender.  That doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy.  I think the best they got out of this is the idea that this team is an 8-8 type of team and will now take a step back with lets say Colt running things -- that's not happening.  Alex will keep them competitive.  They need a good FA crop and draft to take it a step higher. 

 

[WelshSkinsFan]

9 minutes ago, actorguy1 said:

For those who say it’s petty and lame to tag Cousins,then they must have felt awful about how the Patriots did the same thing to Matt Cassel in 2009. Didn’t bother me one bit and neither would this. 

 

Not an apples to apples comparison.

 

1. It was a first tag not a third so way less money involved.

2. New England was in a position to keep Cassel and Brady and still operate in FA so they didn't need a fast trade.

3. Cassel had a great relationship with the team and was happy to facilitate a trade.

[sempre_victrix]

14 minutes ago, actorguy1 said:

For those who say it’s petty and lame to tag Cousins,then they must have felt awful about how the Patriots did the same thing to Matt Cassel in 2009. Didn’t bother me one bit and neither would this. 

 

Petty shmetty.

 

It's not like Cousins has played ball, contract-wise, with the Redskins in 2 years.

 

The thing is, he owes a lot to this team.  He was named starter over a Heisman winner and #2 overall pick and got the chance to shine.  There was never any doubt going into the season who the starter was.  They never brought in competition or seriously drafted a QB to push him.

 

I seriously doubt the Skins tag him,  unless we have a firm deal in place to trade him 5 minutes after he signs the tag.  No way do we risk holding onto $51M worth of QB out of spite.  Even BA isn't that big of an imbecile.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/redskins-tagging-kirk-cousins-recoup-money/story?id=52826741&yptr=yahoo

[Est.1974]

Smith got a 4/94 extension onto his current 17mil 2018 deal, I believe. So technically it will be 5/111 in total at 22.2mil per year. 

[actorguy1]

6 minutes ago, WelshSkinsFan said:

 

Not an apples to apples comparison.

 

1. It was a first tag not a third so way less money involved.

2. New England was in a position to keep Cassel and Brady and still operate in FA so they didn't need a fast trade.

3. Cassel had a great relationship with the team and was happy to facilitate a trade.

2. The cost to keep Cassel took up $14 million of $20 million Patriots had for free agency. Not a lot of flexibility 

[HTTRDynasty]

1 hour ago, Jericho said:

 

Because they would get a year of good QB play, possibly convince him to sign long-term, could try and use a tag on him in 2019 (say a transition tag), and worse case scenario could net a 3rd round compensatory pick if he leaves. No team in the NFL would give up something to take that risk? Not even a third round pick they could eventually recoup? No one? We're talking about the same league that saw a team trade a 2nd round pick for half a season of Jimmy Garoppolo (even though no one know if he was any good), send a first and a fourth round pick for two seasons of Sam Bradford (even though they made the trade right before the season when Bradford had no training camp or opportunity to learn a playbook), and saw a Raiders team give up a first round pick and a conditional 2nd during a mid-season trade for a "retired" Carson Palmer who was admitted, not in football shape. You sure no one would give up anything of value for an above-average NFL QB in his prime?

 

My thoughts echo Keim's here:

 

 

[OVCChairman]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

That was one game for Alex.   It's not hard to look clutch against our defense late in the game.  That wasn't a here we go again with another late comeback from the comeback king Alex Smith.  Kirk has had comebacks. 

 

I've liked and watched Alex among other QBs in the league over the years.  But like I said his rep with his critics has been almost word for word what people kill Kirk for.  He's not a money guy, doesn't play well with the game on the line.  And needs a big time supporting cast.  Personally I think that's harsh about Alex.  I think it was harsh on Kirk, too.    There are other people responsible for whether you win a tight game.

 

Josh Doctson makes a diving catch to help beat Seattle -- Kirk is clutch!  Doctson drops a well thrown ball in the end zone against KC -- Kirk let us down! 

 

I hear you on the money but I am guessing that gives us an extra 4 million -- I don't think that buys us the deep threat.   I'd agree with your point if they started over with Colt and drafted a guy.  Then we could go nuts in FA.

 

As for cap room, to me paying 23.5 million versus lets say 27.5 million is yawn.  If that was the exchange in FA, I'd dig it a lot more.  But to do it and lose a top half of the draft third rounder and arguably your 2nd best young defender.  That doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy.  I think the best they got out of this is the idea that this team is an 8-8 type of team and will now take a step back with lets say Colt running things -- that's not happening.  Alex will keep them competitive.  They need a good FA crop and draft to take it a step higher. 

 

 

 

We're paying Smith $17 mil this year.. By all accounts, Kirk would have demanded at MINIMUM a transition tag @ 28 mil just to start things off.  Thats a savings of $11 mil this season.  We can only speculate what the next 4 years of the deal will consist of, but the report of $23.5 mil per with $71 guaranteed has come out.  It's also come out that the $71 mil guarantee is the injury guarantee.  We dont yet know what the actual guaranteed money at signing is... yet.   There is also speculation that Kirk could see $30 mil per year with the highest guaranteed contract in NFL history....

[Gibbit]

16 minutes ago, sempre_victrix said:

 

Petty shmetty.

 

It's not like Cousins has played ball, contract-wise, with the Redskins in 2 years.

 

The thing is, he owes a lot to this team.  He was named starter over a Heisman winner and #2 overall pick and got the chance to shine.  There was never any doubt going into the season who the starter was.  They never brought in competition or seriously drafted a QB to push him.

 

I seriously doubt the Skins tag him,  unless we have a firm deal in place to trade him 5 minutes after he signs the tag.  No way do we risk holding onto $51M worth of QB out of spite.  Even BA isn't that big of an imbecile.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/redskins-tagging-kirk-cousins-recoup-money/story?id=52826741&yptr=yahoo

The redskins helped Kirk ascend to the situation he is in now, but fact is both sides are at fault for not getting something done. It should have been done, but neither side gave an inch when they had the leverage.....something that has to happen for contracts to get done. Oh well, he was good at going through reads. we hadn't seen that in awhile.

 

only way we get a tag and trade is if Denver and minny go all out war over him

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

The Redskins are like your really hot girlfriend that you take out to the company party.  She's smart, she's funny, everyone likes her but by the end of the night she's drunk and belligerent and you're embarrassed to be seen with her. 

[Gibbit]

Just now, Spaceman Spiff said:

The Redskins are like your really hot girlfriend that you take out to the company party.  She's smart, she's funny, everyone likes her but by the end of the night she's drunk and belligerent and you're embarrassed to be seen with her. 

my redskins isn't hot, smart....funny as **** though. love her

[sempre_victrix]

17 minutes ago, Gibbit said:

The redskins helped Kirk ascend to the situation he is in now, but fact is both sides are at fault for not getting something done. It should have been done, but neither side gave an inch when they had the leverage.....something that has to happen for contracts to get done. Oh well, he was good at going through reads. we hadn't seen that in awhile.

 

only way we get a tag and trade is if Denver and minny go all out war over him

 

Exactly.  If the other decent available QBs negotiate deals prior to the beginning of FA, there could be a bidding war for Cousins.  We could also wait and torture him a bit with tag and trade talk.  You know, just to keep his agent up at night.

[Nerm]

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

 

Hell, if I was the negotiator, at the very least I would have practiced saying "Kirk" before going on the radio or TV so it didn't come out as "Curt" Whether that was meant as a slight originally or not, by the tenth time it felt like a slap in Cousins' face. The PR letter after failing to sign Kirk to a LTD was an outrageously stupid and douchey buring of the bridge.

 

I think the optics of considering a franchise tag for Kirk could be a bad thing.  You can really turn off prospective Free agents if you further the narrative that you are vindictive towards your ex players/employes.  Those one year "prove it" deals look a lot more risky for prospective free agents.