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H&M. That's just racist.


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The title of the video clearly doesn't reflect anything the model says in the interview.

 

She acknowledges that Dove should've had people catch the messaging it was promoting and that they've had this problem in past campaigns. She also never utters "PC witch hunt".

 

Quality end to the video with "triggering snowflakes since 2013".

 

And here we have the cluelessness displayed by a select group of people, on the nuances associated with these issues, on full display.

 

To answer OP, these things happen because select groups refuse to acknowledge the experiences of colored people.

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Yea it's way deeper than a ****ing soap commercial and these same white people ****ing and moaning about someone kneeling during thier sick twisted ass anthem need to learn to get the **** over it. 

 

Seriously you wanna cry and **** about an anthem to YOUR history and tell me to forget and get over my own? Same people claiming the confederate flag is their history need to understand that racism is unfortunately a large part of mine. 

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6 hours ago, No Excuses said:

 

Dove is uniquely skilled at this. Here is another gem from not too long ago:

 

 

 

During the period when I was not a permamnet resident or citizen, every time I passed through immigration I had to fill out a form, I think it was the I-94 which is no longer used, that asked a number of questions, including one that simply stated 'Complexion?'. It was followed by a blank space (not a multiple choice). On the advice of my (Hispanic) immigration attorney I always entered 'Normal'. I was never challenged on this.

 

There was also a question: Have you ever been or are you now involved in espionage or sabotage; or in terrorist activities; or genocide; or between 1933 and 1945 were involved, in any way, in persecutions associated with Nazi Germany or its allies?

 

I don't know if you are supposed to answer Yes or No for that one nowadays.

 

 

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I'm kind of in between, NE. The video clearly is promoting an agenda, but while she acknowledges that dove should have been aware of the effect (given the 'normal' skin tone gaffe) she thinks there is nothing wrong with the ad. The problem with the ad is that people just see the black woman changing into a white woman, not the whole ad, and that gives a different impression. 

 

I also agree that that monkey ad in question should not have run. 

 

Still, there clearly is pc outrage in ads. The one of the apparent white girl with her arm on the apparent black girl comes to mind (it turns out they were sisters, our, which is hilarious if true). 

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16 minutes ago, grego said:

I'm kind of in between, NE. The video clearly is promoting an agenda, but while she acknowledges that dove should have been aware of the effect (given the 'normal' skin tone gaffe) she thinks there is nothing wrong with the ad.

 

Her opinion honestly isn't really useful in this conversation. I think it's a fair assumption that Dove likely wasn't engaged in intentionally depicting racist imagery. I think the same is true for H&M as well. So what she has to say isn't really ground breaking or massively insightful. 

 

This isn't a conversation on explicit racism, but rather one centered around being tone-deaf.

 

Ultimately, these ads are meant to evoke a response from consumers. And you can't expect people to ignore the symbolism behind these depictions even if they aren't intentional.

 

Humans constantly engage in pattern recognition, drawing from our past experiences. Almost every person of color is familiar with descriptions of colored skin being inferior to white skin. 

 

The reaction we have to these things will always be different than how white people perceive it. You simply never had to account for the things that we do. You are not prone to recognizing things that we do. And this is really true both ways. There are likely things in your experience that I could not relate to.

 

And that is fine, nothing wrong with it.

 

But it is beyond exhausting to be lectured at this point that we should "get over it" and stop being "triggered snowflakes" engaged in "PC culture". 

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5 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 reminds me of when i used the term "ninja" in front of a black friend of mine.  He was like "What the **** did you just say?!?!"  I quickly learned that ninja is a derogatory word for black people as a substitute for the other N word.  And he learned I meant actual ninjas,  like dressed in black writhe throwing stars.  Probably didnt helpI was talking about people jumping a fence in the middle of the night to steal stuff. 

 

I've actually heard people in the service industry use the term 'Canadians' to refer to black people.  I was at the Dave and Busters in White Flint ~15 years ago and the bartender kept talking to me about how many Canadians they had the previous night.  I had no idea what he was talking about until I started picking up on the subtext based on his other comments about Canadians.  I've actually heard that term a few other times since then.

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Quote

I am the woman in the 'racist Dove ad'. I am not a victim

Lola Ogunyemi

 

From a very young age, I’ve been told, “You’re so pretty … for a dark-skinned girl.” I am a Nigerian woman, born in London and raised in Atlanta. I’ve grown up very aware of society’s opinion that dark-skinned people, especially women, would look better if our skin were lighter.   I know that the beauty industry has fueled this opinion with its long history of presenting lighter, mixed-race or white models as the beauty standard. Historically, and in many countries still today, darker models are even used to demonstrate a product’s skin-lightening qualities to help women reach this standard.....

...

Then the first Facebook ad was released: a 13-second video clip featuring me, a white woman, and an Asian woman removing our nude tops and changing into each other. I loved it. My friends and family loved it. People congratulated me for being the first to appear, for looking fabulous, and for representing Black Girl Magic. I was proud.

 

Then, the full, 30-second TV commercial was released in the US, and I was over the moon again. There were seven of us in the full version, different races and ages, each of us answering the same question: “If your skin were a wash label, what would it say?”

...

I can see how the snapshots that are circulating the web have been misinterpreted, considering the fact that Dove has faced a backlash in the past for the exact same issue. There is a lack of trust here, and I feel the public was justified in their initial outrage. Having said that, I can also see that a lot has been left out. The narrative has been written without giving consumers context on which to base an informed opinion.

.... 

more at link

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/10/i-am-woman-racist-dove-ad-not-a-victim

 

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6 hours ago, balki1867 said:

 

I've actually heard people in the service industry use the term 'Canadians' to refer to black people.  I was at the Dave and Busters in White Flint ~15 years ago and the bartender kept talking to me about how many Canadians they had the previous night.  I had no idea what he was talking about until I started picking up on the subtext based on his other comments about Canadians.  I've actually heard that term a few other times since then.

Thats a new one to me.

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15 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Never heard either one of the terms used that way.

 

I used to use Ninja in public as a way of censoring myself around people who may be sensitive to the other term I used in private when I was in my 20's. 

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10 hours ago, No Excuses said:

 

Her opinion honestly isn't really useful in this conversation.

 

So in a conversation about the intention of an ad and being tone deaf, the people who were part of creating it explaining how they see it.... is not useful to the conversation?

 

:ols:

 

Talk about exhausting. You want opinions respected and heard and given thought, but only if they align with what you think is right.

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2 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

So in a conversation about the intention of an ad and being tone deaf, the people who were part of creating it explaining how they see it.... is not useful to the conversation?

 

:ols:

 

Talk about exhausting. You want opinions respected and heard and given thought, but only if they align with what you think is right.

 

I argue the conversation isn't really about the intent of the add, but the reactions to it. 

 

 

But I also haven't been reading every post on here so I could be dead wrong. 

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6 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I argue the conversation isn't really about the intent of the add, but the reactions to it. 

 

 

But I also haven't been reading every post on here so I could be dead wrong. 

Right, which is the bigger problem.

 

Many people in this country think intent is irrelevant and all that matters is how others feel about it. They feel they are the arbiters of truth and justice. "If just one is offended" and so on and so forth.

 

I'm not interested in defending H&M or Dove, I just find it funny when people start deciding who's opinions matter and who's don't. I especially find it funny when people start deciding intent doesn't matter, only reaction matters. Which, these days, seems like a large portion of the society. It's interesting to watch.

 

We start talking about tonedeafness vs explicit racism, and what happens when the people involve din creating it weigh in? They're told their opinion doesn't matter :ols:

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21 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

So in a conversation about the intention of an ad and being tone deaf, the people who were part of creating it explaining how they see it.... is not useful to the conversation?

 

:ols:

 

I don’t think Dove was being intentionally racist with the ad. I don’t think H&M was being intentionally racist either. 

 

These ads are a clear example of the lack of understanding that exists within marketing departments of major brands. 

 

So yes, i don’t find the models comments particularly insightful. 

 

Especially when she clearly acknowledges the issue at play as well, which is that Dove has a history of tone deaf ad campaigns.

 

12 minutes ago, tshile said:

We start talking about tonedeafness vs explicit racism, and what happens when the people involve din creating it weigh in? They're told their opinion doesn't matter :ols:

 

You would have a point if the person involved in creating the ad also stated that the ads weren’t tone deaf. But she clearly acknowledges this. 

 

And thats really the issue. You are arguing a point that no one is making. 

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13 minutes ago, tshile said:

Many people in this country think intent is irrelevant and all that matters is how others feel about it. They feel they are the arbiters of truth and justice. "If just one is offended" and so on and so forth.

 

I think many people in this country want a blank check to be crude and offensive without repercussions. 

 

It’s a privilege many people enjoyed for a long time. And now that there are repercussions, its labeled “PC culture”. 

 

The groups who have been on the receiving end of racism and discrimination hardly ever complain of PC policing. I wonder why?

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4 minutes ago, tshile said:

Right, which is the bigger problem.

 

Many people in this country think intent is irrelevant and all that matters is how others feel about it. They feel they are the arbiters of truth and justice. "If just one is offended" and so on and so forth.

 

I'm not interested in defending H&M or Dove, I just find it funny when people start deciding who's opinions matter and who's don't. I especially find it funny when people start deciding intent doesn't matter, only reaction matters. Which, these days, seems like a large portion of the society. It's interesting to watch.

 

We start talking about tonedeafness vs explicit racism, and what happens when the people involve din creating it weigh in? They're told their opinion doesn't matter :ols:

 

See now I have to go read the entire thread, but I don't see people daying intent doesn't matter. It does alot. It doesn't change the outcome. But it they were trying to call the little black boy a monkey versus trying to sell a funny t-shirt then it matters. 

 

Opinion. Not so much. Don't really care how you feel about what you helped create. It's like Trump saying he feels Mexico should pay for the wall and us getting taxed for it. Doesn't matter how you feel results when results are what we are talking about. 

 

And I get what you are saying. What makes my opinion better than hers. Or the masses of people better than hers. Nothing really to be honest. And if Dove is ok with that then that's on them. 

 

But I don't like it. I'm willing to admit it's a bit hypocritical. But history gives me a little room to be too so I'm slightly unapologetic a out it as well. People are complicated lol. You don't really have a question and I don't really have an answer. Sooooooo yea

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From a purely business and marketing standpoint, disregarding how people feel is perhaps the dumbest strategy you can employ. 

 

The entire point of ad campaigns is to evoke feelings inside of people.

 

If you use imagery that reminds people of their negative experiences, you are doing everything wrong.  

 

And in general, I don’t understand the callous disregard for feelings in conversations like this. Humans experience a range of emotions and people usually aren’t dorky enough to instantly start debating logic and intent at every moment. No group of people in human history has ever functioned this way, nor should we expect them to. 

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1 minute ago, No Excuses said:

 

I don’t think Dove was being intentionally racist with the ad. I don’t think H&M was being intentionally racist either. 

 

These ads are a clear example of the lack of understanding that exists within marketing departments of major brands. 

 

So yes, i don’t find the models comments particularly insightful. 

 

And for what it’s worth, she clearly acknowledges the issue at play too, which is that Dove has a history of tone deaf ad campaigns.

 

i was going to say the same thing as tshile. it seems as, not only a black woman, but 'the' black woman who was the subject of the ad and the outrage, her opinion should count for something, unless shes completely insane, which she doesnt appear to be. i agree with her that companies need to make an effort to be aware of what someone could find offensive, but i also agree with her that the dove ad is not the same as the H&M ad. i think the reason the dove ad got more attention was the way it was portrayed, particularly on social media. i had never seen the whole ad, just the clip where the black model turns into the white mode and i was like wtf? i only saw the whole ad last night, and its very different from the edited clip that got circulated. 

 

so, maybe we can agree that not all ads are the same. if theres a spectrum, theres the H&M ad on one end- everybody (here) seems to be in agreement that that ad shouldnt have run. it would be great if it could- i'm reminded of when trent williams got drafted and john thompson called him out for his nickname, 'silverback'. williams loved it, thompson hated it and i thought, well, this is progress. still, the monkey shirt was a bad idea. 

 

i think the dove ad would be closer to the other end of the spectrum, but some clearly see it as controversial. 

 

what about the gap ad i referred to earlier? if someone called the outrage over that 'pc bull****', would you agree?

here it is

2016045705335a191ca.jpg

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From a purely business and marketing standpoint, disregarding how people feel is perhaps the dumbest strategy you can employ. 

 

The entire point of ad campaigns is to evoke feelings inside of people.

 

If you use imagery that reminds people of their negative experiences, you are doing everything wrong.  

 

And in general, I don’t understand the callous disregard for feelings in conversations like this. Humans experience a range of emotions and people usually aren’t dorky enough to instantly start debating logic and intent at every moment. No group of people in human history have ever functioned this way, nor should we expect them to. 

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27 minutes ago, grego said:

i think the dove ad would be closer to the other end of the spectrum, but some clearly see it as controversial. 

 

what about the gap ad i referred to earlier? if someone called the outrage over that 'pc bull****', would you agree?

here it is

2016045705335a191ca.jpg

 

Dove rightfully faced backlash because it wasn’t the first time they got this wrong. And I suspect it was the same for a lot of other people. It’s why I didn’t find the models comments particlarly insightful because this is exactly what she said as well. Note that I am not saying she is wrong, which is what I think some of you are interpreting my comments to mean.

 

I dont find the GAP ad insensitive. And we should expect that sometimes the public will get these things wrong. And I think we shouldn’t let that devalue the larger point. Taking your audiences feelings into account is a good strategy from both, a social and business perspective.

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Don't see what's wrong with the GAP add. 

 

No one is saying all ads are equal. I think we all know each other well enough here to not make up arguments where there ain't any. We don't need help there lol 

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