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Lets keep laughing at the Browns, while we can


zoony

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This is a good take.

 

We are constantly in bandaid mode. The Skins have tried to rebuild, but it’s a half assed attempt because we don’t have the draft picks to really rebuild. Instead, the draft some guys, sign a bunch of low end vets that are okay football players and we mire ourselves in the wastelands of mediocrity.

 

The Browns ARE in great shape. They have one of the best receivers in the game, a good D, a good OL, and they have some dynamic backs (depends on what they do in FA with Crowell). They need a QB and some QoL improvements in a few spots (which they have the draft picks for).

 

Meanwhile, we may or may not have a QB. Don’t have much beyond a #3 receiver. Have a metric pisston of talent at OLB and CB but we’re VERY shallow elsewhere.

 

The team doesn’t have the draft capital OR spread their resources well enough to be truly competitive.

 

Im a Celtics fan in basketball and I love Danny Ainge’s approach. Stockpile picks and use them if the right pieces are available in the draft. If not, move them for high quality pieces. 

 

Complete opposite of the Skins approach.

 

Sometimes I wish I could be a fly on the wall or in the room and ask why they do what they do.

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4 minutes ago, fordranger76 said:

The board would rather be 0-16 and loaded with draft picks huh? Right. Yeah lets wish that we were the Browns.

Considering the group of folks that want to start over at QB and build up the defense, what's so crazy about it?  They aren't just loaded with draft picks, but high draft picks and over 100M in cap space, with a legit GM in place to oversee it.

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The obsession with tanking for high picks just escapes me.  KDAWG mentions New England and they are a great example, look at their roster and there is hardly a first round pick to be found, the team is built on late round picks and street free agents with just the occasional high pick sprinkled in and that is not a recent phenomenon but holds true for their roster year in and year out.  Organizational culture is what truly matters and that is why the Dan/Bruce axis will never win a Superbowl and why the Browns with Haslam in charge will waste all of that equity they have built up.

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Let's see if the Browns actually pull off a good draft for once before we anoint them.  All of their draft classes this decade except for maybe '16 and '17 (too early to call those) have sucked.  They have to draft well AND build a culture of competitiveness from scratch.  It's a tall order and they probably won't get it done.

Also, it's going to take them years of successful drafting to become truly competitive.  Loading up picks in one class isn't some special shortcut to consistent competitiveness, you need to constantly nail drafts because the rate of attrition is so high.  You have to replace foundation pieces every couple years in the NFL.  Also, you need to find ONE QB and stick with him.  Having multiple QBs leaves you in flux at the position.

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16 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The sad thing in retrospect is we did have the 2nd pick in the draft in 2014 but it was lost to the Rams in the RG3 deal.  But yeah the difference between having the first pick in the draft or even 2nd pick versus anything below that is typically huge -- especially when it comes to finding a franchise QB.

 

 

 

In fairness the 2017 draft was one of the worst in history when it comes to first round QB talent. The first round yielded Bortles, Manziel and Bridgewater. The second round appears at this point to be better with Carr and Garoppolo being drafted there. 

 

And I agree with Zoony that the team should have been completely blown up after Gibbs 2. I still think we have a chance to see that this year. IF Kirk leaves what reason do you have to try to go 8-8 again. If he leaves we need to just blow the whole thing up. Let FA's leave for compensatory picks and trade whoever you have with value. Build the franchise from the ground up. The major problem I have with that is I dont know if I want Allen and Williams doing that building.

46 minutes ago, WelshSkinsFan said:

The obsession with tanking for high picks just escapes me.  KDAWG mentions New England and they are a great example, look at their roster and there is hardly a first round pick to be found, the team is built on late round picks and street free agents with just the occasional high pick sprinkled in and that is not a recent phenomenon but holds true for their roster year in and year out.  Organizational culture is what truly matters and that is why the Dan/Bruce axis will never win a Superbowl and why the Browns with Haslam in charge will waste all of that equity they have built up.

When you have the greatest QB of all time that changes your building equation greatly. Lets see where NE stands in 5 years after Brady leaves. You can bet your life savings that Bellicheat is out the door on Brady's boot heels as well.

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This is a funny concept because if you erase the name Browns and their recent record from it and just look at their strategy and it sounds very legit and smart. But in a similar notion, if you erase the name Bruce Allen (or Dan Snyder or Doug Williams) from the face of the Redskins front office, you get similar argument about the direction of the franchise.

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/gallery/nfl-draft-teams-picks-draft-records-ranked-2012-present-030117

That's an article ranking the teams draft records. We were number 9. Cleveland was 22. Part of the problem with them (and any team) is that when you have that many coaches (and GMs) what they look for in a player changes. The guys who were stars on one coach will probably be stars on any coach, but you take a guy like Ryan Grant on the Skins and he's a nice role player on our team. You put him on a Hue Jackson team or a Jim Caldwell team, maybe he's less valuable. And this is not about a man-crush on Ryan Grant, but its about coaches needing to keep replacing decent guys with "their guys". Those guys are where a lot of the mid-round picks come from. Look at us with David Amerson (Career AV of 18), Keenan Robinson (Career AV of 16), Alfred Morris, heck even Roy Helu. Heck, even Cousins was a guy who was a Shanahan guy who was almost gone when we brought in Gruden, if not for that stretch at the end of the 2015 season.

 

I don't think its about the whole "suck for Luck" argument because even Andrew Luck is showing he wasn't the best player in that draft. It could be Cousins or Wilson. Wilson has a ring, and Cousins has comparable numbers. The Browns were right about the need for more picks and good people making those decisions. They've done a good job drafting lately and it'll probably show off sooner than later (looking at profootballreference, their most recent drafts have career AVs higher than ours for the most part). But is Hue Jackson using players the same way that Pettine did? Did Pettine use players similar to Chudzinski? Did Chudzinski use players similar to Shurmur? Did Suhrmur use players similar to Mangini? Then there's the simple question of which players are going to have promising starts and be crippled by injuries (Phil Taylor), or have 2-3 year suspensions (Josh Gordon)?

 

That said, Jay Gruden is a better coach (in terms of winning, not talking philosophically) than any coach they've had probably since Belichick or Butch Davis. You've also got to consider teams like Jacksonville and Tennessee and Carolina where they've kept coaches at least 4 years and allowed them to finish their contracts, or taking them finishing below .3333 to get fired.

 

There's a quote about Doctson and Cousins and how he wants to develop chemistry with the QB and how they need to learn each other. Allowing players to do that builds chemistry, especially if they're not getting blown out every week. So, I'm still in a wait and see approach to how I judge Cleveland, But in the same regard I'm a lot more optimistic about the Redskins than I was under Vinny because we are doing what I've wanted - investing in the draft. Hopefully we can keep Cousins and continue to build what we've been building, but if we have to let him go hopefully as Jay said, hopefully we have a backup plan that is not to trade the farm to get up to the first or second pick in the draft when we could probably get a good (great) QB in the second, third, or later. 

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2 hours ago, WelshSkinsFan said:

The obsession with tanking for high picks just escapes me.  KDAWG mentions New England and they are a great example, look at their roster and there is hardly a first round pick to be found, the team is built on late round picks and street free agents with just the occasional high pick sprinkled in and that is not a recent phenomenon but holds true for their roster year in and year out.  Organizational culture is what truly matters and that is why the Dan/Bruce axis will never win a Superbowl and why the Browns with Haslam in charge will waste all of that equity they have built up.

They have the best QB in history.  He maskes alot of problems.  Kirk did the same here.  We won 7 games with a trash roster. 

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4 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Don't get me wrong, I have always rooted for the Browns because their fans deserve better,  So I hope you are right.  But I don't see how you can claim they'll figure it out let alone predict they'll be "great".  They hire the wrong people, then when they fail they start over with new people constantly.  As mentioned they always have high picks and cap room  And they never seem to "figure it out".  

 

They'll figure it out because they're on the right path.

 

People in sports, ever since Moneyball, have been looking for new ways and trends to figure out how to get a leg up.  The Redskins do not do this.  The Browns are at least trying to do it.  It's not hard to do in baseball anymore, those metrics and stats have been in place since Bill James in the 80s.  In football, it doesn't seem to be as refined.  

 

As previously noted, they have a decent defense, certainly better than ours.  I'd take Josh Gordon and any/all of his issues over any of our current receivers.   They've got some pieces.  They'll figure it out.  

 

I would almost...ALMOST...argue that 0-16 is misleading.  Yes, it sucks to lose every football game in a whole season.  They are not nearly as pathetic as the 0-24 Buccaneers were in the late 70s.  

 

Depending on how the offseason shakes out, who is drafted and signed/lost in free agency, there's a very real chance that they could win more games than us next year.  

 

 

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18 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

Not a chance I am envious of the Browns today.  Having high picks and cap space does not always mean they will pick the right players.  And they have so far to go even if they hit on all these picks, which simply will not happen, it won't be nearly enough.

Maybe not envious of the Browns, but of the the Browns fans.  Do you realize how much FUN we'd be having if we had the Browns' draft picks?  OMFG. 

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The Washington Redskins are the only team in the NFL without a true football minded GM. 

 

The Browns used to be that other team when they hired the mathematician dude from "Money Ball" and the junior lawyer, Sashi Brown.  

 

The Browns will find success before we do because they now have FOOTBALL PEOPLE making decisions, not a party planner, not a politician, not an angry midget, not a retired QB who has no idea why he's here, etc

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Boss_Hogg said:

not a party planner 

not a politician 

not an angry midget  

not a retired QB who has no idea why he's here 

 

not a party planner = ?

not a politician = Bruce 

not an angry midget = Dan 

not a retired QB who has no idea why he's here = Doug 

........................................................................................

Who's the party planner? ngj7HsyZ30pH2AvkFgJ65zFiG8H2LrS1zLXB73KwFVuuetNn9_afn_9uFwW4TrywZVBj=w300

Jay?

 

 

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1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Things are going to hit the fan in NE but because Mr. Kraft went Mr. Snyder.

I believe almost every owner is a Dan Snyder in the making. They just wait for opportunity.

 

16 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

They'll figure it out because they're on the right path.

I wouldn't be so quick with the Browns.

As someone else said, they have to hit the nail on those draft picks first, and when they still have Hue 1-31 Jackson as a HC. That's tough to bear as a coach and you have to wonder if he'll be able to put this behind him and start fresh. And they still don't have a QB.

 

Now the best thing that might help put them on the right track is that Big Ben will probably retire this year or next year. With a new HC coming in Cincinnati and Ravens being up and down, that's not the hardest of the division to play into, really.

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With regards to Brady, he may be the best QB in history and of course that helps him elevate the play of those around him but no matter how great he is he cannot turn scrubs into 1,000 yard receivers and he certainly does not block the opposing defense or sack the opposing quarterback.  Brady helps but the culture and environment elevates everyone in the building.

 

Specifically we are supposed to want what Cleveland currently has and I am sorry but I really do not see the allure.  Cap space and picks are nice but they are not a panacea to cure all ills.  John Dorsey may be a legitimate GM for what it's worth but he was also fired in Kansas City for being overly secretive about his decisions and for failing to instill discipline or follow the chain of command.  Dorsey might be better than BA, who isn't, but he is nothing to get excited about.

 

If you specifically follow the Cleveland media or just pay attention to the general noise around the team you will know that Jimmy Haslam is the most hands on owner in football right now and is also totally clueless about what it takes to build a team.  The Head Coach has just gone 1-31 over the last 2 seasons with a team that was not devoid of talent and has repeatedly blamed his players for not getting it done and insisted that no coach could achieve what he has in these circumstances.  The GM signed on and took the job knowing that he was going to have to keep the Head Coach because the owner has deemed him untouchable and he agreed to this because no other team was beating down his door offering him a GM role.

 

Haslam hired Dorsey and fired Sashi Brown because he needed a scapegoat and he had to make a move to placate a fan base that is beyond tired of his clown show, does this sound familiar?  In all probability they use their first pick this year on a QB who will be completely broken after 1 year like Kizer seems to be and then predictably the axe will fall on Hue and they will be in reset mode on the coaching side and when the next coach fails to deliver instant success he will in turn be run off along with Dorsey who will be blamed for the hire.

 

To get back to Washington.  If, and I know this is a big if, but if KC stays and we get lucky with a couple of additions through FA and the draft we are potentially a championship team.  You can laugh at that statement but a dropped TD and a blown call cost us two games which would have had us at 9-7 with all of the injuries to key players this year and so an 11 or 12 win season is certainly not beyond the realm of possibilities with a couple of small changes.  To win a Super Bowl you need to get into the post season, you don't need to be the best team as both of the Giants Eli Manning wins prove and you don't need a dynasty, one lucky year is what a lot of championships are founded on and I will take that.  I would prefer to work towards this goal than blow it up or suck for the next college hotshot QB who may or may not be the savior. 

 

 

I

 

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19 hours ago, zoony said:

The Browns have had the courage to defer a total rebuild to one draft.  Something several of us have been begging for for years and years on this forum.  (Instead of a first round pick in 2009, 2010, 2011.... go for 3 first round picks in 2012 and an additional 3 2nd round picks that you got in a trade., e.g.)

 

1.  The Browns have 12 picks in this years draft.  5 in the first 2 rounds.  1 and 4, overall

2.  The Browns hired a non football guy to run their operations.  In this case, Paul DePodesta who you all know from Jonah Hills character in Moneyball

3.  The Browns invested in the best GM they could find in John Dorsey, who in turn is investing in more front office talent, poaching Alonzo Highsmith from the Packers

4.  Projected $118 million in cap space

 

The Browns have the best upcoming draft position in the history of the league, the most talented front office in the league, and a non football ivy league economist running the show and looking for value in systems that by and large are being built by aging ex jocks and assorted dumbos.  He wont have a hard time, especially with $118 million in cap space

 

What a time to be a Browns fan.  I would take 1-31 in a second to be where they are.  After all, they have as much to show for it as we do.

 

This is what the Redskins have needed since 2006.  Two straight years of SUCK with a front office smart enough to leverage that suckage into future value.  Instead, we are on the perpetual 7-9 merry go round, always with limited cap space, always putting another band aid on the terminal patient.

 

JiM Haslem is still their owner Hue Jackson is their coachand having John Dorsey  as their GM means nothing everyone still thinls of them as the same old Browns. They are going to have at least 3 or 4 years of winning seasons before anyone takes them seriously. 

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25 minutes ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

 

not a party planner = ?

not a politician = Bruce 

not an angry midget = Dan 

not a retired QB who has no idea why he's here = Doug 

........................................................................................

Who's the party planner? ngj7HsyZ30pH2AvkFgJ65zFiG8H2LrS1zLXB73KwFVuuetNn9_afn_9uFwW4TrywZVBj=w300

Jay?

 

 

 

Bruce wears many hats and being "Mr. paints and picnics" is just one of his many talents

 

Need I remind you of "winning off the field" and "harvest fest"?

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I don't think the Browns sucked on purpose for two years intentially. This past season they've tanked it, season before not so much, they were just outright crap. 

 

They are in great shape though. They can nail the draft, FA might be more difficult, the league is still awash with cash so they have to make themselves appealing to the FA market.

 

So yes, imagine if they got Kirk. Instant shot of massive credibility.

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I'm certainly not laughing at the Browns.  They just got a legitimate GM (We don't have one), and they have 4 picks in the first 2 rounds, with SMART Management this time (while we twiddle in the winds with the morons we have at Redskins Park).  I'd say things are definitely looking up for them.  They have a very good young defense, and a pretty good running game.  All they really need to upgrade is WR, TE & obviously QB.  I can definitely see them being the Jaguars or Rams in 2 years.

 

Meanwhile here at Redskins Park, we're getting ready to let go a Top 10 QB for no reason to free agency, and we have no solid leadership or management we can trust to replace our soon to be former Top 10 QB.  The moron who put the team together with no real options at WR, RB, Defense and now QB will now try to sell the fanbase (poorly I might add) on hope for our soon to be rookie QB.  We're being told to "stay optimistic and hopeful" for our future team, with no evidence whatsoever that things will improve anytime soon, or that there will be no changes to our front office.

 

Bold Prediction:

 

In the next 2 years, the Browns will get to the playoffs, and win 11+ games, while we revert back to our 3-13 or 4-12 days, and we officially take the mantle of the most embarrassing franchise in the NFL, and the biggest laughing stock when Kirk Cousins leads his future team to a Super Bowl.

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@zoony you're way overrating that front office amigo...Two years in a row they've had 4+ high draft picks and do you know how they got those picks? By their "genius front office" trading back top 5 picks and passing up franchise guys like Wentz and Deshaun Watson. (EDIT- Dorsey has been part of strong FO regimes, but during his time with the Chiefs, he drafted very poorly. (I think we can all agree that Andy Reid is the reason that franchise got back on track).)

 

Regardless, this will be a mess in two years after they go on a spending spree and then have to begin to re-sign these draft classes. They are now where the Seahawks were three years ago... except without the success and good drafting. 

 

All that being said, Allen is the worst GM in football.

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How did we get so lucky to have an owner buy the team at such a young age. He is 53 years old. He could realistically own the team for another 30+ years. That means we'll be inept till 2047. Everything about this team is ****ing depressing. 

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For years I too have said we need to commit to a true and complete rebuild. We never do. And that's why we're stuck in this perpetual state of suck.

 

2010 was the best time to do it. Instead of hiring Shanahan, we should have let Allen(serving as Team President)hire McLoughan to be GM and let McLoughan hire a coach, preferably a young hungry up and comer(my choice at the time was Mike Zimmer, current coach of the Vikings). We had a top 5 pick to build with and IIRC good cap space since we could have shed expensive vets like Portis, Moss, Cooley etc.

 

Instead we hire old geyser Shanahan, trade a 2nd rounder for McNabb, and still end up 5-11.

 

 

I'd gladly trade places with the Browns right now. Lots of cap room, young talent, and picks to work with.

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4 minutes ago, dyst said:

How did we get so lucky to have an owner buy the team at such a young age. He is 53 years old. He could realistically own the team for another 30+ years. That means we'll be inept till 2047. Everything about this team is ****ing depressing. 

I'm holding out hope that SI will investigate Snyder like they did Jerry Richardson... 

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The only issue I have with what the Browns are doing is keeping Hue Jackson as head coach.  He needed to go badly, and the GM should have had the opportunity to run his own search and install his own guy.  No coach with a 1-31 record, I don't care about the talent or lack thereof, should be allowed to stay on the job.  The problem is that the owner has Hue under contract and doesnt want to pay two coaches for the same year: penny wise and pound foolish.

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