Josh Doctson the new 50/50?

[joeken24]

On 1/2/2018 at 1:31 PM, shakinaiken said:

I may be in the minority here, but nothing about Doctson impresses me. He doesn't have game breaking speed, doesn't create separation on routes, and does't appear to have reliable hands. He can jump pretty high, so that's cool. 

 

Everyone seems to preach patience, but I'm not convinced on his raw skill set.  

You hit every point on the head. Gruden loves measurables. Its was size with Bruton and Matt Jones.

With Doctson, it was how it "reminded" Gruden of AJ Green. Problem is he doesn't play like AJ Green. He's comparable to Brandon Lloyd. Maybe one year removed from injury makes a difference. Lets hope so.

[HTTRDynasty]

I give Josh a pass for last year.  People remember that big drop against KC, but I see a lot of people fail to acknowledge the huge catch against Seattle.  He had what amounted to a normal rookie season: plenty of frustration, but plenty of glimpses of potential and hope for the future.  Also:

 

 

 

 

[Renegade7]

That was an awesome post @HTTRDynasty , thank you.

 

I'll be honest, to me, every time I saw that guy jump it was like watching someone using a cheat code or a madden card.  The talent is there, what he chooses to do with it is up to him.

[ddub52]

Dachshund made some memorable catches last year, particularly against Oakland and Seattle. I feel like he will be a productive receiver in the NFL, but may not ever reach true #1 status. Maybe he gets a few more looks with Alex Smith at QB. 

[Cooleyfan1993]

6 hours ago, ddub52 said:

Dachshund made some memorable catches last year, particularly against Oakland and Seattle. I feel like he will be a productive receiver in the NFL, but may not ever reach true #1 status. Maybe he gets a few more looks with Alex Smith at QB. 

Lol josh dachshund ?

[Koolblue13]

I really hope he can explode this year. Having a better QB who gives a **** will make a difference.

 

We are anywhere from not having a starter at WR to having a dynamic group. 

 

Who knows.

[OVCChairman]

9 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

I give Josh a pass for last year.  People remember that big drop against KC, but I see a lot of people fail to acknowledge the huge catch against Seattle.  He had what amounted to a normal rookie season: plenty of frustration, but plenty of glimpses of potential and hope for the future.  Also: 

 

 

 

The one against Sherman makes me want to pull my hair out because Pryor is running wide open for and easy 1st down...

 

 

Also, why do we have 3 WRs running almost identical routes just at different depths... that's a lot of traffic in a small area

[zoony]

I saw nothing dynamic or explosive from doctson all year.  I did see him make 2 great catches over a defender

 

Just not sure why we feel he is going to change.

 

Ps.  You know who epse has tape of them running open?  Every wide receiver in the league

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, zoony said:

Ps.  You know who epse has tape of them running open?  Every wide receiver in the league

No doubt.

 

But I've always looked at folks harping on guys like Doctson being open as a way to discredit the QB more than touting Doctson has the goods. 

 

I'm not ready to give up on Doctson, but he hasn't really shown me anything that leads me to believe he'll ever be that great of a player.

[Warhead36]

I don't think he'll ever be elite or top 5 in the league or anything like that. I do think he can be a good productive #1 WR.

[NoCalMike]

I think when it comes to the WR position, a player's value/worth changes from team to team depending on what role they need to be in.  Doctson has the raw skills of a #1, but there definitely needs to be more consistency.  He hasn't yet developed as a go-to option. 2017 was his first "real" season so it's probably way too early to make a final judgement on what he can or can't turn into.

 

A lot of times it isn't about whether said player is good or bad, it's what their value is related to where they were picked in the draft.  Doctson was picked high enough that if he doesn't develop into at least a borderline #1 WR then it is probably considered a bad pick.  Doesn't mean he is a bad WR, just wasn't worth spending that high of a draft pick on.

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

I think the few big plays he had this season out shined the few blunders. I'm not ready to label this kid 50/50 yet but i will put that label on myself when it comes to evaluating if he is going to be a star or not. All the the talent is there in my opinion, This is the season for him to step up, No missing games with injury, No almost had the game winner type drops & No disappearing from week to week.

[Burgold]

I think how the player is used matters too. If Art Monk were asked to fulfill the Desean Jackson or even the Ricky Sanders' role, he wouldn't have been a HOFer. Doctson similarly was miscast. I think he was sent on all the go routes because they had no one else. The problem is, Doctson isn't fast. He did okay in that role, but it was a bit like asking Keyshawn Johnson to be Randy Moss.

[NoCalMike]

I think a good example of the opposite of Doctson (for now) is Jamison Crowder, as far as WR's emerging.  Crowder was drafted to return punts and/or kickoffs.  The fact that he became a starting slot WR was all on him and his hard work matching his potential.  

 

Sometimes draft picks end up being more than expected.

[dcdiscokid]

1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

I think a good example of the opposite of Doctson (for now) is Jamison Crowder, as far as WR's emerging.  Crowder was drafted to return punts and/or kickoffs.  The fact that he became a starting slot WR was all on him and his hard work matching his potential.  

 

Sometimes draft picks end up being more than expected.

But I think you can point at Burgolds point in that when crowder was asked to do more/used in a way that doesnt fit his skill set last year he struggled.  And I think now that we have at least added a burner to the group doctson can be used in the intermediate passing game where he should be used.

[NoCalMike]

8 minutes ago, dcdiscokid said:

But I think you can point at Burgolds point in that when crowder was asked to do more/used in a way that doesnt fit his skill set last year he struggled.  And I think now that we have at least added a burner to the group doctson can be used in the intermediate passing game where he should be used.

 

Oh for sure. I think Crowder was also hurt more then we though as he started to really look like his 2015/16 self the last quarter of the season.

 

Paul Richardson is going to help this WR unit no doubt.

 

I think with Doctson it is just too soon.  He was counted on doing a lot right out of the gate because of missing out on his actual rookie season.   Remember when he was first drafted most everyone assumed his rookie year would mostly consist of adding a red zone threat and he'd be worked into the rest of the passing game. That went out the window due to his injury and when he finally did get on the field it was opposite Pyror and a gimpy Crowder.

 

Doctson isn't a speedster, but he isn't incapable of beating coverage as witnessed last season. I think sometimes people conflate being able to beat coverage as something only super fast guys can do.  A lot of it is timing, route running, & technique.  You get defenders to commit to something premature and make a move and suddenly you're open because it takes time for a defender to collect themselves and chase.  Very rarely is a WR just simply running straight down field as fast as they can go. 

[joeken24]

I reviewed every pass thrown to Doctson last year in the coach 22. I also reviewed the pass plays where he won and didn't get the ball thrown his way. That's not to say that I know the read should have went his way - I don't. Maybe he wasn't the primary. But based on what I saw, I officially rescind the 50/50 title for him. First off, coming off an injury (regardless of the level), does take a little time to get over mentally. I remember catching a bad hop to the mouth playing baseball. A year later, I found myself having difficulty seeing the ball off the bat which is extremely important for an outfielder. Maybe its a confidence thing. But its maddening as hell, I will tell you that. Particularly if you're used to playing at a high level. If you follow baseball, Ryan Zimmerman now plays first base because he never got over whatever it was that caused him to sail balls from third base. Some call it the yips. Some that suffer from this crap have depth perception issues too. Playing in somewhat of a cloud is part of too. There's a feeling of disconnection somehow. Anyway, if any of you have ever had the yips or have lost a little confidence playing a particular sport, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Bottom line is, you just have to get over it to get your swag back. And the only way that happens is if you play and if you're involved. Last year sucked for Doctson because he wasn't involved enough. Its documented that the guy in minnesota had issues with throwing the ball in tight windows as well as throwing to open receivers he didn't trust. Coming off injury is important for any player to get back in the swing of things. Its no different than giving the ball back to a RB after he fumbles. You gotta touch the ball; take some hits; get some success under your belt. I hope Alex understands that necessity and get's Doctson more involved. I'm not saying coddle Doctson. I'm simply saying to force the issue with him. But make no mistake.....he's got to play in the preseason this year. The Redskins have got to help him get his swag back before the season starts. 

[SWFLSkins]

22 hours ago, zoony said:

I saw nothing dynamic or explosive from doctson all year.  I did see him make 2 great catches over a defender

 

Just not sure why we feel he is going to change.

 

Ps.  You know who epse has tape of them running open?  Every wide receiver in the league

 

Out on limb here, Doc is going to be the breakout player of the year for the Redskins. I watched all those targets via twitter and was amazed at how he adjusted to poorly thrown balls, did anyone consider how that gets to a guys psyche after awhile? Now I could be wrong of course and he never bonds with Smith or gets injured again, IDK. But I do know Gruden gets guys open, he needs to have someone to build some continuity with IMO...think Dez/Romo vs. Dez/Dak, trust is a huge factor. I don't think Doc trusted Cuz. 

8 hours ago, joeken24 said:

I reviewed every pass thrown to Doctson last year in the coach 22. I also reviewed the pass plays where he won and didn't get the ball thrown his way. That's not to say that I know the read should have went his way - I don't. Maybe he wasn't the primary. But based on what I saw, I officially rescind the 50/50 title for him. First off, coming off an injury (regardless of the level), does take a little time to get over mentally. I remember catching a bad hop to the mouth playing baseball. A year later, I found myself having difficulty seeing the ball off the bat which is extremely important for an outfielder. Maybe its a confidence thing. But its maddening as hell, I will tell you that. Particularly if you're used to playing at a high level. If you follow baseball, Ryan Zimmerman now plays first base because he never got over whatever it was that caused him to sail balls from third base. Some call it the yips. Some that suffer from this crap have depth perception issues too. Playing in somewhat of a cloud is part of too. There's a feeling of disconnection somehow. Anyway, if any of you have ever had the yips or have lost a little confidence playing a particular sport, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Bottom line is, you just have to get over it to get your swag back. And the only way that happens is if you play and if you're involved. Last year sucked for Doctson because he wasn't involved enough. Its documented that the guy in minnesota had issues with throwing the ball in tight windows as well as throwing to open receivers he didn't trust. Coming off injury is important for any player to get back in the swing of things. Its no different than giving the ball back to a RB after he fumbles. You gotta touch the ball; take some hits; get some success under your belt. I hope Alex understands that necessity and get's Doctson more involved. I'm not saying coddle Doctson. I'm simply saying to force the issue with him. But make no mistake.....he's got to play in the preseason this year. The Redskins have got to help him get his swag back before the season starts. 

 

I posted mine then read yours. I was glad to see you make this assessment. I do really wonder how much Doc enjoyed having low, underthrown or slightly behind balls thrown to him while recovering from injury. That is on a guys mind, WE can't ignore that. 

 

Jay gets guys open, I hope WE have a QB that can now hit his spots, throw up top and out to Doc, let him fight high for the contested balls. 

[Commander Wolffe]

23 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

 

Oh for sure. I think Crowder was also hurt more then we though as he started to really look like his 2015/16 self the last quarter of the season.

 

Paul Richardson is going to help this WR unit no doubt.

 

I think with Doctson it is just too soon.  He was counted on doing a lot right out of the gate because of missing out on his actual rookie season.   Remember when he was first drafted most everyone assumed his rookie year would mostly consist of adding a red zone threat and he'd be worked into the rest of the passing game. That went out the window due to his injury and when he finally did get on the field it was opposite Pyror and a gimpy Crowder.

 

Doctson isn't a speedster, but he isn't incapable of beating coverage as witnessed last season. I think sometimes people conflate being able to beat coverage as something only super fast guys can do.  A lot of it is timing, route running, & technique.  You get defenders to commit to something premature and make a move and suddenly you're open because it takes time for a defender to collect themselves and chase.  Very rarely is a WR just simply running straight down field as fast as they can go. 

 

I would agree here and the three names that come to mind are Keenan Allen, Michael Thomas, and AJ Green. I wouldn't classify any of these receivers as 'burners' but would you hate them as your 1# WR? I think they are all well rounded enough to kind of do it all which brings me to Doctson. I think he needs route polish and confidence which comes with experience. We have Richardson to clear out on the other side and Crowder/Reed to work the middle of the field. This combination should lead itself to Doctson doing some possession stuff and making big plays downfield in addition to improving as a red zone target.

[HTTRDynasty]

On 4/19/2018 at 2:05 PM, NoCalMike said:

 

Oh for sure. I think Crowder was also hurt more then we though as he started to really look like his 2015/16 self the last quarter of the season.

 

Paul Richardson is going to help this WR unit no doubt.

 

I think with Doctson it is just too soon.  He was counted on doing a lot right out of the gate because of missing out on his actual rookie season.   Remember when he was first drafted most everyone assumed his rookie year would mostly consist of adding a red zone threat and he'd be worked into the rest of the passing game. That went out the window due to his injury and when he finally did get on the field it was opposite Pyror and a gimpy Crowder.

 

Doctson isn't a speedster, but he isn't incapable of beating coverage as witnessed last season. I think sometimes people conflate being able to beat coverage as something only super fast guys can do.  A lot of it is timing, route running, & technique.  You get defenders to commit to something premature and make a move and suddenly you're open because it takes time for a defender to collect themselves and chase.  Very rarely is a WR just simply running straight down field as fast as they can go. 

 

Like this:

 

 

[NoCalMike]

Exactly -----^^^

 

I think if you view 2017 as Doctson's rookie year (as it was on the field) it wasn't all that bad.  He had more pressure on him to perform then he would have had he been on the field the previous season with Jackson & Garcon still here.  

[mistertim]

I would say 500+ yards receiving with 6 TDs isn't too bad for what was basically a guy's first year playing NFL ball, especially considering that they really didn't get him into the game as much as they probably should have. Part of that is on Kirk and part is on Gruden but I'd say it was a bit more Kirk as I don't think he trusted him enough and had some known aversions to throwing into tight windows (as was mentioned earlier).

 

Yeah he had some "doh" drops but I chalk that up to nerves and inexperience. He never had issues with drops in college at all so I don't see any reason he won't get over a few dropsies from last season. His route running seems up and down. I've see him run good routes but I've also seen him run poor ones. Sometimes he rounds his routes out WAY too much. And yeah he isn't a classic "speedster" but he ran the exact same 40 time as AJ Green. You don't need to run a 4.3 in order to be a deep threat. 

 

That being said I do think that having a healthy Crowder back as well as a hopefully productive Paul Richardson will help free him up a bit. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

16 hours ago, mistertim said:

I would say 500+ yards receiving with 6 TDs isn't too bad for what was basically a guy's first year playing NFL ball, especially considering that they really didn't get him into the game as much as they probably should have. Part of that is on Kirk and part is on Gruden but I'd say it was a bit more Kirk as I don't think he trusted him enough and had some known aversions to throwing into tight windows (as was mentioned earlier).

 

 

 

Well....Thank Christ we now have a real gunslinger in...<checks roster>

 

Ooooohhhhh, right.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

On 4/19/2018 at 9:06 AM, zoony said:

I saw nothing dynamic or explosive from doctson all year.  I did see him make 2 great catches over a defender

 

Just not sure why we feel he is going to change.

 

Ps.  You know who epse has tape of them running open?  Every wide receiver in the league

Agreed...and that's why I wouldn't freak out if a receiver was the choice at 13.

[zoony]

Chad Ryan is the most homerific guy reporting on the team.  He is the poster child for why average joes are not qualified to report on professional sports.  His predictions are downright embarassing