Redskinscub

Josh Doctson the new 50/50?

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7 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

Grant turned it on this season. We may be looking at his ceiling, but the 2016 fall downs seem to have completely disappeared. Grant was a much more reliable guy in 2017. Obviously Docs ceiling is MUCH higher, so I will remain optimistic that he makes a similar jump in 2018.

Grant's ceiling is a 4th WR on an average team.  Spot duty, fill-in for injury, certain packages, etc.  

 

He basically started the entire season at one spot and had bottom 1/4 of the league stats for a starting WR in the NFL.  

 

Which is fine, as long as he's slotted for the role he can play.

 

Doctson has the physical talents to be a #1 WR.  He's big, strong, can high-point the ball, and plenty fast enough.  He's shown a flash here or there.  He just needs to improve and be more consistent.

 

I've been saying this for over a year, all the pieces of an offense have to complement each other. 

 

In 2015 and 2016, why was the passing game so effective?  Because teams HAD to respect DJax's outside speed, so he pulled coverage and attention in his direction.  They had to worry about Reed's ability to break a safeties ankles at any point, so he drew coverage.  That opened things up for Garcon and Crowder.

 

And Reed and DJax opened things up for each other too.  

 

The problem is that we have not 1 player on offense right now at any position, OTHER THAN CT, who causes a defense to adjust to them.  They just play Doctson and Grant straight up.  That allows them to pay more attention to Reed and Crowder.  None of our TEs or RBs can block, so they don't have to worry about an ouside running game.  And our RBs don't get anything more than wha's available, so they are ok there.

 

We don't force a defense to adjust at all except with scheme.  And Jay is great at schemeing it up.  But at some point talent wins.  And we don't have talent.  

 

It really is that simple.

 

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@Voice_of_Reason please don't misconstrue my point. I wasn't implying that Grants turnaround made him a #1-3 receiver, just that there was a marked improvement in his game. Hoping that Josh also takes a similar jump.

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5 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

@Voice_of_Reason please don't misconstrue my point. I wasn't implying that Grants turnaround made him a #1-3 receiver, just that there was a marked improvement in his game. Hoping that Josh also takes a similar jump.

 

Me too, I just don't know where it's gonna come from, honestly 

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8 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

@Voice_of_Reason please don't misconstrue my point. I wasn't implying that Grants turnaround made him a #1-3 receiver, just that there was a marked improvement in his game. Hoping that Josh also takes a similar jump.

Sure, agreed. 

2 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Me too, I just don't know where it's gonna come from, honestly 

He's got the talent.  The question is the desire.  And staying healthy.

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Everything we are saying about Doctson though, I am sure Vikings fans were saying about Thelin as well after his first couple of seasons.  He was a virtual nobody.  He was probably drafted much lower, so the fact that he even turned it around to become a beast is a feat in itself.  I am just saying it's early to completely bail on the guy right now.

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1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

Everything we are saying about Doctson though, I am sure Vikings fans were saying about Thelin as well after his first couple of seasons.  He was a virtual nobody.  He was probably drafted much lower, so the fact that he even turned it around to become a beast is a feat in itself.  I am just saying it's early to completely bail on the guy right now.

 

As this was basically Dotson's rookie year, I'm sure everyone hopes for a big leap next season.  I believe I recall one of the reasons he didn't play more in the 1st half of the season, other than him being given the same position as Pryor, was he was finally getting the route tree down late in the year.  As he came from TCU's spread, it's not all that surprising it took him some time to get up to speed.  And btw, Theilen went undrafted.  Was a UDFA out of Minnesota State in 2013.  Broke out in 2016 with 69 catches for 967 yds in 2016 and then backed that up with 91 catches for 1276 yds this year..  both years averaging 14 yds per reception.

 

 

 

Edited by Paul Cumberland
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I like the fact he’s already established himself as a “jump ball weapon” early in his career. Hopefully this will give him some confidence heading into the off season. He seems like a guys needing to work on the details of the position and can no longer rely just on “beasting” opposing DBs. This is where I believe talent evaluators, coaches and GMs can’t really know if a guy is going to make it a priority in life to put in the work. We’ll see. 

 

Does es anyone else think he doesn’t run like an athlete, seems to run upright and not have great bend in and out of breaks. Admittedly this goes beyond my scope, but curious of coaches or former players agree or disagree?

 

It actually reminds me of Randy Moss. 

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12 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

Everything we are saying about Doctson though, I am sure Vikings fans were saying about Thelin as well after his first couple of seasons.  He was a virtual nobody.  He was probably drafted much lower, so the fact that he even turned it around to become a beast is a feat in itself.  I am just saying it's early to completely bail on the guy right now.

 

Nah, no one was saying that about Theilen. He went undrafted, spent his rookie year on the PS and his first couple season he was an all-pro returner. 

 

And he didn't come out of nowhere, he had 69 catches for 967 yards last year.

 

Its like saying we should just wait until Ryan Grant develops into an All-Pro. 

 

The comparison is obviously Treadwell who looks like a complete bust and also had injuries his rookie year. At least we didn't draft that guy. 

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19 hours ago, wit33 said:

I like the fact he’s already established himself as a “jump ball weapon” early in his career. Hopefully this will give him some confidence heading into the off season. He seems like a guys needing to work on the details of the position and can no longer rely just on “beasting” opposing DBs. This is where I believe talent evaluators, coaches and GMs can’t really know if a guy is going to make it a priority in life to put in the work. We’ll see. 

 

Does es anyone else think he doesn’t run like an athlete, seems to run upright and not have great bend in and out of breaks. Admittedly this goes beyond my scope, but curious of coaches or former players agree or disagree?

 

It actually reminds me of Randy Moss. 

i especially admire his work ethic to attain that 6'4" frame.....and if by established you mean he caught our first true jump ball in the last 15 years then i agree. but seriously making a few catches, one remembered as especially impressive, because a guy is tall isn't really "establishing" oneself as any type of weapon when he can't be counted on to, you know, actually hold on to the ball. 

 

i think the kid has a case of the nerves. nothing more or less. 

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1 hour ago, onedrop said:

i especially admire his work ethic to attain that 6'4" frame.....and if by established you mean he caught our first true jump ball in the last 15 years then i agree. but seriously making a few catches, one remembered as especially impressive, because a guy is tall isn't really "establishing" oneself as any type of weapon when he can't be counted on to, you know, actually hold on to the ball. 

 

i think the kid has a case of the nerves. nothing more or less. 

 I wish he was 6’4, he’s only 6’2. “Established” might’ve been a bit strong lol I feel better saying he’s shown the ability to create unique windows and come down with a few. Agree he plays a bit nervous, you’d hope confidence increases with continued experience. 

Edited by wit33

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2 hours ago, wit33 said:

 I wish he was 6’4, he’s only 6’2. “Established” might’ve been a bit strong lol I feel better saying he’s shown the ability to create unique windows and come down with a few. Agree he plays a bit nervous, you’d hope confidence increases with continued experience. 

I'm down with that.

 

nicely put.

 

i hope his "nerves" are the kind that can be overcome. unlike some practice warriors....taylor jacobs...the comb...et al...

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My issue is the types of balls he dropped this year. Many of them did not demand some circus catch but did demand top receiver skill and he didn’t show it; not consistently anyway. Still, I’m optimistic and hoping for big things next year.

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Why do we have such ****house luck drafting wr's?dan snyderI sit here thinking and thinking about our last very successful or productive wr and I can't think of one or whydan snyderwe haven't had a dynamic receiver that was a game changer..crowder is(was)starting to come on nicely..but he's not that true numro uno guy..is it our talent scouts ?dan snyderi mean it seems like every couple years we finagle some personnel of some sorts add this guy and that guy.. and drafting...well drafting period just blowsdan snyderand I just don't get how and why have we not been able to draft worth a ****...yes I understand Doctson was Scotty mcdoogl's dude...and I remember a **** ton of teams who had Doctson on there draft board so it's not like he ain't good we just have theeee most ****dan snyderhouse luck I guess..what the hell ..only receiver since 92 to catch only 35 of 75 balls thrown to him...ouch...I'm not throwing in the towel on him just yet but he's slowly starting to join the list of receivers that we have drafted high that turns out to be a bust..Hmmm let's see here shall we...Michale Westbrook...those two receivers we drafted a few years back..I believe both in the second round the one was from Michigan State the other I can't remember..both busts...I can almost go on all day with high draft picks who were busts..for us..since...hmm be nice..Dan Snyder bought the team..only ones who weren't...#1 Sean Taylor, Chris Samuel's, Jon Janson, Champ Bailey, ..just a few off the top of my head..but here's to hoping docts can turn things around..would a different qb here have more success..maybe his and cousins relationship is on the yukkies..I at times wish we had a different qb willing to take the risk and Brett favre the ball to Doctson..maybe that's what he needs..

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On 1/16/2018 at 7:11 PM, wit33 said:

 I wish he was 6’4, he’s only 6’2. “Established” might’ve been a bit strong lol I feel better saying he’s shown the ability to create unique windows and come down with a few. Agree he plays a bit nervous, you’d hope confidence increases with continued experience. 

 

He has a 41" vertical leap that offsets any lack of height - not that 6'2" is short. I do believe experience and another off-season - this one completely healthy, will allow him to get more confidence. 

 

While I have great confidence in him, I do agree he needs to take that next big step forward this year. The training wheels are off. He needs to show what he can do. 

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On 1/16/2018 at 7:57 PM, TheShredSkinz said:

Reps,reps,and more reps. He'll get over the angst. The only concern I have is his thirst for greatness. We need to find a dog to pair with him.

This is how I feel about him, he has the tools but I don’t see much motivation out of him. I miss that Garçon mentality and intensity. 

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51 minutes ago, maxspruill21 said:

This is how I feel about him, he has the tools but I don’t see much motivation out of him. I miss that Garçon mentality and intensity. 

 

We as fans have to hope he’s driven and wired in a way from an outsiders perspective is tough to see his commitment and passion. You know, “process oriented”. A guy focused on his own performance and not the “personality” of each particular game. 

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On 1/15/2018 at 10:14 PM, wit33 said:

I like the fact he’s already established himself as a “jump ball weapon” early in his career. Hopefully this will give him some confidence heading into the off season. He seems like a guys needing to work on the details of the position and can no longer rely just on “beasting” opposing DBs. This is where I believe talent evaluators, coaches and GMs can’t really know if a guy is going to make it a priority in life to put in the work. We’ll see. 

 

Does es anyone else think he doesn’t run like an athlete, seems to run upright and not have great bend in and out of breaks. Admittedly this goes beyond my scope, but curious of coaches or former players agree or disagree?

 

It actually reminds me of Randy Moss. 

 

His route running is one thing that bugs me a bit. He tends to round his routes out and isn't very sudden in and out of his breaks. He tends to rely purely on his athleticism it seems. That will certainly work sometimes because he certainly does have some impressive physical skills, but eventually he's going to have to take the next step with his route running if he wants to be great. As far as the drops I agree with others that it was likely mostly nerves. He had very very few drops in college, especially considering how often he was targeted so its not like a Hankerson where he has a history of it. 

 

As far as Randy Moss, that guy was just one of the all time freaks of nature athletes in history. 6'4, 215 and ran a sub 4.3 40 (though this was before electronic timers, IIRC). Moss actually did rely on his speed and athleticism at first but eventually he also turned into a top notch route runner.

Edited by mistertim
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On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 11:00 AM, goskins10 said:

 

He has a 41" vertical leap that offsets any lack of height - not that 6'2" is short. I do believe experience and another off-season - this one completely healthy, will allow him to get more confidence. 

 

While I have great confidence in him, I do agree he needs to take that next big step forward this year. The training wheels are off. He needs to show what he can do. 

 

 He needs a good mentor.  Yes, he has the physical goods to be a great WR, but the mentality part he is still very undeveloped. If it ends up him being the top dog and there's no good vet to coach him in-game, then it will take longer, if it does work at all. This team desperately needs another solid vet WR who has had success; maybe not SB caliber, but one with at least Pro bowl credentials.

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On 1/3/2018 at 8:08 AM, Darrell Green Fan said:

Yeah I'm in the wait and see camp too, WRs always take longer to develop.  He has skills but I too question his ability to separate and that's what all the great ones can do.  I tell you what, if the go with Colt or some retread hack we may never know how good he can be.

 

 

I think you're dead on. It was frustrating watching KC under throw on jump balls. I watched him turn into a DB quite a few times. His demeanor doesn't bother me. It's been documented he's a quiet kid. Matter of fact it was a sticking point last year w/ Gruden combined w/ his injuries. Ppl are complaining about his hands but he didn't lead the team in drops nor did he have as many as Crowder. 

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On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 10:56 PM, skins island connection said:

 

 He needs a good mentor.  Yes, he has the physical goods to be a great WR, but the mentality part he is still very undeveloped. If it ends up him being the top dog and there's no good vet to coach him in-game, then it will take longer, if it does work at all. This team desperately needs another solid vet WR who has had success; maybe not SB caliber, but one with at least Pro bowl credentials.

 

I just do not get this continued narrative by fans about his mentality and his drive and desire. The guy was a walk on and not recruited at all. He worked his way not just onto the team but the #1 WR position at a major college. His biggest trait per his head coach? His drive, work ethic and determination to be great!!  They missed him when he first tried out. It was not until he stepped on the field and they saw how hard he works that they realized they almost missed a great player fro them.

 

Are we so jaded now by these mouthy, loud and obnoxious WRs that when you have a decent human being they are seen as weak? There is nothing wrong with his mentality. But I do agree all young players can be helped by having a veteran that has had success around them. He will learn how to get that separation and how to move his body, how to read CBS and NFL defenses. But his mentality? He is just fine.

 

Please read this article. It should give you a better idea of who this guy really is. https://www.si.com/nfl/2016/03/31/nfl-draft-2016-josh-doctson-tcu-wyoming

Edited by goskins10
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I just remember with 50/50 Kiper had us taking Moss that draft and we ended up signing him in FA ( or did we trade for him?) anyway.

 

Give the kid time. Not everyone busts out like Julio or Randy right out the gates in their career.

 

Michael Irvin (25) didn't till his 4th season

Jimmy Smith didn't have a 1,000 yard season till he was 27

Tim Brown was in his 6th season and 27 when he hit 1,000

Irving Fryar was 29 and his best years were in his 30's

Andre Reed was 25 and in his 5th year when he hit 1,000

Tony Martin ( who I think is fantastic comparison physically and skill set wise) was 30 when got his..

 

With Westbrook, first off it was weird when in back to back seasons he had the EXACT same stat line of what 34-500. Next thing you know in '99 it all comes together and he's a pro bowler.. Then he had the knee injury in '00 and what could have been became his narrative.. And then the fighting thing too..

 

Give him time..

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 1/23/2018 at 2:32 AM, #BgMase76# said:

I think you're dead on. It was frustrating watching KC under throw on jump balls. I watched him turn into a DB quite a few times. His demeanor doesn't bother me. It's been documented he's a quiet kid. Matter of fact it was a sticking point last year w/ Gruden combined w/ his injuries. Ppl are complaining about his hands but he didn't lead the team in drops nor did he have as many as Crowder. 

He caught 45% of the passes thrown to him. Crowder caught 67%

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CrowJa00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DoctJo00.htm

 

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1 hour ago, Redskinscub said:

 

A ton of them were thrown in a "hey, you're good at catching tough to get balls right?" sort of way.  Slot receivers tend to get the passes thrown a bit differently than the outside guys

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I'll take the wait and see approach. This was essentially his rookie campaign...had some some flashes, but he has a lot to work on and a ways to go. If he can polish his game and stay healthy it may all come together..."if"  Considering the spot he was drafted in I did expect more, but again he pretty much missed his rookie season.  I too question his mental make up more than his physical attributes. When you look at players like JuJu Smith-Schuster, Cooper Kupp etc. need to see more from Josh. 

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