Is it okay to lie to our children?

[The Wicked Wop]

You wanna know why kids are so disillusioned nowadays? Why I see so many youths attempting suicide or spending time in our psychiatric ward?

We can go down the slippery slope of defining happiness or what quantifies someone as good....but just using your list of ills effecting children today is a good starting point. Granted somebody taking pleasure beating (or anything of a criminal nature) somone up isn't something a parent would be proud of.....and would probably we someone who should be in a a psyco ward. Regardless, in my definition of happiness for my daughter I view it as her being happy with herself, her life, her family, and be able to look herself in the mirror and be proud of who she became. Granted as with anyone, there are going to problems or points of sadness....but that where I step in, to either comfort, advise or just be there...and in alot cases they are unavoidable, and you have to impart the ability to roll with the punches. Is this everyones definition of happiness for their child....no, but it works for me.

[rdsknbill]

Just to share some personal experience. I live in Red Lion, PA. You might of heard of this little town last April when an eighth grader walked into the cafeteria and murdered Dr. Segro (school principal) then turned another hand gun on himself, in front of about 350 students. This all came about over a girl. Disgruntled boyfiend and a school administrator that had to speak to the boy about harassing the girl.

My son was in sixth grade at the time. He came to me after this happened and asked me what the whole deal was over. I delicately, but directly, explained the situation and what I felt caused this child to lash out with such violence.

Needless to say, he was quite nervous as the sumer vacation ended and he was preparing to attend the very school where this tragedy had occured. I reassured him that this was an isolated incident. To the credit of the Red Lion Scool District, they had an open house for the children, as well as a "parents meeting" to explain the actions that were being taken to insure that something like this wouldn't happen again.

This is something that I, as a father of three, never expected to have to deal with in such a rural little town. Nor would I wish that burden on any parent.

The reason I tell you all this is that, there is NO manual to being a parent, There is no magical knowledge that falls into your brain when that child is born. I am by far not the father of the year, but I do the best that I can.

Here's to ya

[Woofer]

Originally posted by The Wicked Wop

Great post Henry, being a the proud papa of a little girl who just turned 2 today....I can relate. Fact is, their is no absolute right way to raise a child......because we are all different and require different methods of being raised. I can appreciate Die Hard's position, but on the flip side, by not letting a child dream to some degree, you could be damaging that child as well....or by trying to make the world so black and white to somebody that at the very least can't appreciate the concept. The only thing I really know about raising a child after 2 years is that the only given thing is your love for that child and having them know that. We don't get to spend as much time with her as we would like because of work, but its a great feeling seeing her smile and laugh all the time. Does that mean I'm raising her right.....no, but I guess it atleast lets me know that she is happy, and sometimes as a parent that is as much as you can hope for.

Lying to your children about an elf and a rabbit does not give your children the ability to dream.

You can do both - be honest with your offspring and encourage their imagination.

It's the same as teaching math and then telling a story for their enjoyment. As long as they know when you are telling a fictional tale. And then encourage them to make up their own story.

***********************************************************

I have never fathered a child, yet I have been a parent. I am proud to say that my step-daughter is a bright, intelligent, happy young woman who graduated from Loyola University last spring.

I am proud of her and glad to have been a part of and an influence on her life. My only regret is that I am not her biological father - who was not a parent at all. She was 18 before he had a third conversation with her.

[jbooma]

Originally posted by Die Hard

The role of a parent is to become a role model for their children to become a productive and dutiful human being with integrity. And to do so you have to make choices early in their lives that act in the best interests of that child.

You don't have to be a role model for your kid. Your job is to prepare them to be able to live their life. You teach them values and what is important but you don't have to be their role model. Yes we would all love if our kids said to us "Dad you are my role model", but I wouldn't expect it.

Think about it if we drink, divorce, smoke, argue with their mother, is that a good role model?? If we sit on the coach all day long watching football and then go on an internet football site to chat with people, is that a good role model?

Everyone is different. I wouldn't want my kids to be what I am. I would want them to do greater things as long as they enjoy it.

[Henry]

I would agree with Die Hard that the best way to lead is by example.

And lying about an elf and a rabbit may not give your kids the ability to dream, but by the same token it won't turn them into raging psychopaths either.

It's just not that big a deal.

[Die Hard]

Originally posted by jbooma

You don't have to be a role model for your kid. Your job is to prepare them to be able to live their life. You teach them values and what is important but you don't have to be their role model. Yes we would all love if our kids said to us "Dad you are my role model", but I wouldn't expect it.

Think about it if we drink, divorce, smoke, argue with their mother, is that a good role model?? If we sit on the coach all day long watching football and then go on an internet football site to chat with people, is that a good role model?

Everyone is different. I wouldn't want my kids to be what I am. I would want them to do greater things as long as they enjoy it.

Great. So not only do you deceive your children... but now you're a two-faced "do as I say not as I do" person.

I'm just kidding of course.

But it's much easier to teach kids by example.

Imagine if your kids knew they could trust you.... because they knew you always tell the truth. Imagine if your kids knew they could respect you... because you practice what your preach.

That's how you prepare your children for the world that lies ahead.

[Phat Hog]

[jbooma]

Originally posted by Die Hard

But it's much easier to teach kids by example.

I completely agree, but I was just saying some dads and parents do things that we don't want our kids to do. I would be curious to see a stat about if the parents smoke what are the percentages the kids do, as well as get divorce, etc....

I just think it is funny for a some parents to tell their kids don't do drugs, don't smoke, don't cheat on your wife or husband, yet they are doing it anyway. How is the child supposed to know what is wrong or right if you are doing what you don't want them too.

I am curious do you tell your kids that the world was created scientificly or by a "God"?

[Symbol]

Hey, I'm the one that's confused here, not the kids. I grew up in a Christian household, and now I live in a Budist household with my wife and kids. No, the kids don't know about Santa, won't know about Santa. We exchange gifts, because my mother continues to corrupt my kids... and spoil them.

My mother tried to teach my son about Santa when he was 4. Me and my wife were teaching him of Budha. So one December 24th, my son ran to us everytime that he heard a noise and with fear in his eyes, said "Papa, there's a Santa on the roof, and he's going to get me because I didn't do everything you told me too."

He started crying and I told him that there was no such thing as Santa Clause. He still needed to sleep in bed with me and his mom. Never will my daughter learn about Santa.

[dchogs]

Originally posted by rdsknbill

Just to share some personal experience. I live in Red Lion, PA. You might of heard of this little town last April when an eighth grader walked into the cafeteria and murdered Dr. Segro (school principal) then turned another hand gun on himself, in front of about 350 students. This all came about over a girl. Disgruntled boyfiend and a school administrator that had to speak to the boy about harassing the girl.

My son was in sixth grade at the time. He came to me after this happened and asked me what the whole deal was over. I delicately, but directly, explained the situation and what I felt caused this child to lash out with such violence.

Needless to say, he was quite nervous as the sumer vacation ended and he was preparing to attend the very school where this tragedy had occured. I reassured him that this was an isolated incident. To the credit of the Red Lion Scool District, they had an open house for the children, as well as a "parents meeting" to explain the actions that were being taken to insure that something like this wouldn't happen again.

This is something that I, as a father of three, never expected to have to deal with in such a rural little town. Nor would I wish that burden on any parent.

The reason I tell you all this is that, there is NO manual to being a parent, There is no magical knowledge that falls into your brain when that child is born. I am by far not the father of the year, but I do the best that I can.

Here's to ya

being from york (acutally, right next door in dallastown- even worked at the RLCC), i followed that situation closely, albeit a week later as my parents sent me the paper clippings. red lion did do a great job in counseling everyone. well handled.

back on subject a bit- henry has it right that "lying" to our kids about santa really isn't that big of a deal. leading by example and instilling proper morals is a big deal though. while this seems a bit hypocritical (and probably is since lying ain't exactly good morals), overwhelming honesty with your kids on all other important levels outweighs the white lies of santa, easter bunny, and tooth fairy.

fwiw- when i found out about santa, i felt like i was brought into an exclusive club of knowledge. my parents allowed me to help stuff my sister's stocking (younger sister) and arrange the presents. for me, it added to the fun and spirit of christmas, and i didn't feel betrayed at all. :2cents:

[jhayunga]

What a country. You use to get fired for lying. Now you get fired for not lying. Just another example of the extremis we go to not to offend anyone. I've got news. Santa doesn't exist. You're not going to like everything I say. And this country thinks I should pay anyone i have just offended millions of dollars to compensate them for theit emotional distress. But i guess that is how we make it in this world since no one is willing to actually work for anything anymore.

[Phat Hog]

Originally posted by jhayunga

I've got news. Santa doesn't exist.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :thud:

[TheKurp]

I have no kids.

I have two dogs.

If I want my dogs to come to me, I yell "BISCUIT". I give each one a biscuit.

If I yell "BISCUIT" and I don't give each one a biscuit, they'll stop coming to me.

Yet another Kurpism for you to enjoy.

[riggins44]

I don't think it is an offense worth being fired over. However I do think it should be a parent's decision when to fess up.

I'm sure my 12 year old knows, but won't say anything because he doesn't want to kill the golden goose. He figures as long as plays along he'll still get lots of stuff from Santa. I have no problem with that, because Santa is as much fun for me as it

is the kids.

Nothing more fun then watch a kid write a letter to Santa and leave out milk and cookies. Mine have even left things for Rudolph. I've even jokingly (was serious) told them to leave

Santa a beer since he gets milk everywhere else. To get them

to calm down and go to sleep so you can put things out and let them wake you up at 0'dark thirty is things that create special memories for everyone.

Even after all mine know the truth I will still want to play Santa and surprise them. My wife and I even get each other something and put in the stockings.

I just love Christmas and a big kid at heart. I'm a squirrel when see a package under the tree with my name. I've got to shake, squeeze, and weigh to try to figure out what it is.

Relax and don't take life so serious for a couple of days and enjoy the moment.

[Woofer]

Originally posted by Die Hard

It seems we fundamentally agree on everything. Oddly, you just convinced yourself that it's the inverse of what I said. Your entire post is consistent with what I've preached. Reread my posts if necessary.

Just let's not be childish and confuse "temptations" (ie. which are ultimately "decisions") as DEMONS ok?

Cigarettes are not demons. Cocaine is not a demon.

If these things didn't have some benefit to each and every individual that consumed them.... they wouldn't be widespread.

The "decision" - and hence the "responsibility" - lies in the decision whether or not the enjoyment from those products outweighs the potential long-term health problems associated with them.

They're not demons. It's just what you value.

Yes, we do agree on most things - I was just attempting to demonstrate that not lying about givers is not enough. We have to not lie about monsters and demons.

As for cigs and coke not being demons - maybe, maybe not. I can see your point that they are "decisions" or "tempatations".

I wonder, if you asked 100 recovering cocaine addicts if cocaine is a demon, what kind of answers would you get? Since I could be a respondant to my own poll, I would have to say demon.

They start out being a temptation - but that changes.

Demons come in many forms and guises.

[Phat Hog]

It is my belief that the spirit of Christmas is embodied in the fable of Santa Clause. Although Santa is not himself the true meaning of Christmas, there once lived a St. Nicholas after which the fable of Santa Clause was derived. While all children outgrow the fable of Santa Clause, I don’t see any problems with a parent’s desire to engender wonder, excitement and anticipation of pleasure. These are all important aspects of enjoyment in life, and the parental hope is that our children will retain “Santa” as inspiration to give to others, and that good things can come to them through their heart driven generosity.

I tell my kids the true story about St. Nicholas (Sinterklaas), and try to pass on that he was the true manifestation of Santa Clause and the spirit of Christmas…. And how ordinary people can make a difference in the lives of others through love and compassion for one another.

If one wants to be legalistic, and say that we are lying to our children, I think that they are overlooking the fact of the intent; which is not to deceive but to create a festive spirit of joy and good will towards others.

[Die Hard]

[Tom [Giants fan]]

Being a teacher, I'm surprised that a teacher was talking about Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Nowadays, it is hard to talk about holidays in schools. You have to be careful not to offend or exclude any child who may or may not celebrate holidays. In the early grades where I teach, kids who don't celebrate a holiday have to go to another class during parties and/or birthday celebrations. In the older grades, the kids just don't want to hear about Christmas or holidays if they don't celebrate it. And you have to be careful with it or you are going to be getting a visit from an angry parent.

I don't remember having to do these things when I was in school. It seemed like everyone celebrated everything. Maybe I was just little and was oblivious to things like this. It is a totally different time. This is why I'm surprised this teacher was talking about these things in class.

[Darth Tater]

The fable of Santa Claus is more fun now that I'm an adult. My family has a tradition built around this. We tuck the kids in then have coffee (okay, sometimes we have liquor laced with coffee) and lots of edible junk (including the candy and stuff intended for the stockings) then we get to 'play Santa' (I'll admit this can be a challenge if we have toys that require 'some assembly'). The fun really begins when the kids find those new presents -- and the bonus is that the wrapped gifts (which we have to keep track of) don't get opened until later (sometimes, not until noon).

I realized there was no Santa because my parents got nothing or very little from the man and Santa brought me a clothes all the time (which I NEVER asked for). I played along for a while, though probably because I was a greedy little snit but I like to think it was for the more noble reason of allowing my parents to continue having such fun.

Generally, no, don't lie to your kids...but I'm having fun.

[EagleSteve]

This doesn't really apply to all the deep philosophical discussions in this thread. But it renews my belief in Santa Claus whenever I read it. Not the commercialized man in the bright red suit, but the real Santa. Although he is not the reason Christmas exists of course, the idea is the same. At 39, I still believe. And I hope I can pass this belief on to my kids.

Yes, Virginia, There is a Santa Claus

Editorial Page, New York Sun, 1897

We take pleasure in answering thus prominently the communication below, expressing at the same time our great gratification that its faithful author is numbered among the friends of The Sun:

I am 8 years old. Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus. Papa says, "If you see it in The Sun, it's so." Please tell me the truth, is there a Santa Claus?

Virginia O'Hanlon

Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a sceptical age. They do not believe except what they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.

He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus! It would be as dreary as if there were no Virginias. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The external light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies. You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if you did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived could tear apart. Only faith, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, Virginia, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Santa Claus? Thank God he lives and lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay 10 times 10,000 years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.