Is it okay to lie to our children?

[Eagles_Legendz]

Originally posted by Die Hard

There's no flaw in my logic.

It's pretty straight forward and consistent.

Some of you guys are stretching... I never said telling kids a white lie about Santa Claus will disillusion the child.

It's the precedent it sets.

Some of you believe little white lies are harmless. That's your prerogative.

What is Santa Claus to the child? Ultimately, the hope of getting an extra special present. I'd rather buy that extra present for the kid and tell him I bought it. And I'll take the credit for it as well thank you.

I don't see any benefit telling him a fictional character is giving him presents based on his behavior during the year.

Some of you might find that harmless or a possible incentive for the child to behave.

I don't.

I find it sets a bad precedent. I don't enjoying lying to the people I respect and care about. Even a little white lie.

So when your kid is four and asks how he/she was made, are you going to completely explain?

How bout, you're having a kid, and your wife asks if she looks fat while pregnant. What is your response going to be? "Yeah honey, you look like a blimp!"

Telling white lies to a kid won't lead to them committing suicide. Of course, you have the right to raise your children however you see fit.

[Tarhog]

Originally posted by redman

What's the problem with Santa Claus? Do you guys really believe that kids are going to become disillusioned - even suicidal - because of Santa Claus? Gimme a break!

It's a fun thing for kids, and for their parents on what is a very special holiday for a lot of people. And I think kids, long after they've stopped believing in Santa Claus, learn to appreciate the effort that their parents put in to make the holiday special.

As for the DJ, he did what could only be described as malicious, raining all over kids' parades here, just for a laugh. It's neither his job nor a teacher's job to tell kids about Santa. I just don't get people sometimes.

And as for not lying to kids, how far are you going to take this? Are you going to tell them that your father in law isn't welcome in your house on holidays because of his drinking problem? Are you going to tell them that your prior marriage failed because your ex - or you - cheated?

We tell kids white lies all the time because they're not born ready to handle all of the harsh realities of the world. That's part of the way that we fulfill our role of Protector as parents of our kids. In that context, focusing on fictional Santa Claus as an evil just seems silly.

Redman, as usual, the voice of reason. Christmas is one of the most magical aspects of childhood. While I love ya DH...I don't think its a failure to provide reality for kids that has created so many of the problems you see...its actually the reverse.....we don't ALLOW them to be kids. I'm struggling currently with my 10 year old daughter. I don't want her to become Britney Spears. I don't feel like I should have to be addressing some of the issues I am with a daughter who's 10, but thats the way it is now.

I also think many parents are nearly totally uninvolved with their kids upbringing and refuse to set limits and boundaries.

Christmas is a sweet sweet time for a kid. I see nothing wrong with letting them enjoy a little fantasy...the harsh realities of life come too quick. I also think most kids find discovering the truth about Santa to be a kind of rite of passage...my daughters very proud she now knows he's not real, but respectfully lets my 6 yr old son continue to believe.

[Die Hard]

Originally posted by Eagles_Legendz

So when your kid is four and asks how he/she was made, are you going to completely explain?

How bout, you're having a kid, and your wife asks if she looks fat while pregnant. What is your response going to be? "Yeah honey, you look like a blimp!"

1. Yes. And when I give them the scientific explanation that goes over their head.... I'll tell them to ask the question again when they get older and can understand.

2. My wife would fat. She is supposed to be gain weight while she is pregnant. And to blatantly ignore that reality is absurd. And I have a very happy marriage.

I like to think I have a mature relationship. Honesty... seems like we've been brought up to believe it's a virtue to aspire to. Apparently I was lied to.

[Die Hard]

Originally posted by GSF

Well now Diehard, aren't you impressed with yourself. I'm going to step out on a limb here and take a guess that you don't have any children.:laugh:

Please don't be so blantantly ignorant. I'm sure there's plenty of personal, professional and social issues which you've got no more knowledge than 3 sentences worth of information on... and I've bet you've formulated an opinion on it.

You're on a football messageboard. You ever play football? You ever play professional football? You ever coach professional football? Should I dredge up all 600 of your posts and remind you how you lack any true experience or knowledge and therefore anything you've said lacks and substance or validity?

Any friggin idiot can impregnate a woman. Therefore, any friggin moron can be a father. Doesn't mean they're fit to be parents. And just because I have a kid doesn't mean I don't have a clue how to raise one either.

[GSF]

Originally posted by Die Hard

Please don't be so blantantly ignorant. I'm sure there's plenty of personal, professional and social issues which you've got no more knowledge than 3 sentences worth of information on... and I've bet you've formulated an opinion on it.

You're on a football messageboard. You ever play football? You ever play professional football? You ever coach professional football? Should I dredge up all 600 of your posts and remind you how you lack any true experience or knowledge and therefore anything you've said lacks and substance or validity?

Any friggin idiot can impregnate a woman. Therefore, any friggin moron can be a father. Doesn't mean they're fit to be parents. And just because I have a kid doesn't mean I don't have a clue how to raise one either.

So do you have kids or don't you then? I'm still guessing no. A scientific explanation why Santa isn't real and if it goes over their head tell them to ask you again when they're older? And your calling me ignorant? Dredge up all my posts you want, I never claimed to have all the answers. You make parenting sound so cut and dry, but it's not like that. I wish it was that easy. Every day is a struggle.

Commenting on football or social issues is a lot different than talking about how to raise kids. You just don't know much about it until you've been there. One day you will know what I mean. Anyways, I was just playing with you a bit, sorry if I insulted you, that wasn't my intention.

[Mania]

If a 9 year old doesn't know already than something is really wrong!

[Die Hard]

Originally posted by GSF

Commenting on football or social issues is a lot different than talking about how to raise kids. You just don't know much about it until you've been there. One day you will know what I mean. Anyways, I was just playing with you a bit, sorry if I insulted you, that wasn't my intention.

You did insult me.. insinuating that because I don't have a child I don't understand what it's like to be a parent.

I'll break it down for you very simply. And hopefully you'll take this to heart.

I think we'd all agree there appears to be an increasing percentage of problem children today. They deal with bigger issues and on a larger scale than years past. Drugs and alcohol are more rampant and widely used now than ever before. We've got kids bringing guns to school and killing other students. They're making bombs. We've got kids killing other kids and blaming them on MTV, music and video games. They're vandalizing, stealing cars and committing other types of felonies. We've got under-educated and ill-prepared children. We've got an increasing number of kids on medication for depression, suicidal ideation and attention deficit disorder.

There's a lot of social ills with our youths nowadays. I believe moreso now than ever. But even if you don't happen to believe so.... it doesn't dismiss my point.

Let's assume that a meager 5% of children are problem children out of the population of the USA. I'm not sure of the population of the US at the moment... but you do the math if you'd like... it's not necessary. For the sake of argument.... let's just say there's a half a million troubled youths in the US.

That's 500,000. Regardless, it's trivial.

How many parents have you ever heard admit they are bad parents?

I bet you not a single one.

That implies there's a heck of a lot of parents out there who think they are good parents and they're doing things the right way. Obviously they're not.

How do you know you're not one of them? How do I know?

That's why I'm not going to argue with you.

I don't have all the answers. None of us do. I just plan on raising my kids a little different than the way you probably raised yours. And I wouldn't dismiss my way of raising kids just because I don't yet have children.

Unless you know of THE perfect method to raise children into respectable and productive human beings... don't dismiss any other method.

I wasn't preaching to all you parents. I simply explained how I was going to go about raising my children and the philosophy behind it.

Finding out Santa wasn't real later in life didn't kill the child. And knowing Santa never existed hasn't really setback any non-Christian demoninational families either.

The concept of Santa in and of itself wasn't the sole point. It sets the precedent that you're going out of your way to perpetuate little white lies to either give enjoyment or to protect a person from something that would cause harm.

I've always found it better and more fulfilling to know the truth. And I won't be inconsistent with my parenting. Deceiving is deceiving. Whether the child forgives the parent - or even remembers it - a few years later is besides the point. I want my child to know I will always be honest and straight with them.

That's what people can expect from me. And I hope it's a virtue I can instill in my children.

[Sarge]

Originally posted by Die Hard

There's no flaw in my logic.

It's pretty straight forward and consistent.

Some of you guys are stretching... I never said telling kids a white lie about Santa Claus will disillusion the child.

It's the precedent it sets.

Some of you believe little white lies are harmless. That's your prerogative.

What is Santa Claus to the child? Ultimately, the hope of getting an extra special present. I'd rather buy that extra present for the kid and tell him I bought it. And I'll take the credit for it as well thank you.

I don't see any benefit telling him a fictional character is giving him presents based on his behavior during the year.

Some of you might find that harmless or a possible incentive for the child to behave.

I don't.

I find it sets a bad precedent. I don't enjoying lying to the people I respect and care about. Even a little white lie.

You're a mean one......................Mr Grinch!:laugh:

[Eagles_Legendz]

Originally posted by Die Hard

You did insult me.. insinuating that because I don't have a child I don't understand what it's like to be a parent.

I'll break it down for you very simply. And hopefully you'll take this to heart.

I think we'd all agree there appears to be an increasing percentage of problem children today. They deal with bigger issues and on a larger scale than years past. Drugs and alcohol are more rampant and widely used now than ever before. We've got kids bringing guns to school and killing other students. They're making bombs. We've got kids killing other kids and blaming them on MTV, music and video games. They're vandalizing, stealing cars and committing other types of felonies. We've got under-educated and ill-prepared children. We've got an increasing number of kids on medication for depression, suicidal ideation and attention deficit disorder.

Let's assume that a meager 5% of children are problem children out of the population of the USA. I'm not sure of the population of the US at the moment... but you do the math if you'd like... it's not necessary. For the sake of argument.... let's just say there's a half a million troubled youths in the US.

I don't think there are more 'problem children' as you put it, now than before. However, these ones have louder and more harmful ways of expressing their discontent because of technology.

I'm not sure how you define a problem child, but if it's making bombs, killing other, and committing felonies, then it certainly isn't five percent. I'd be willing to bet that most of their issues comes with the environment they were brought up in, rather than if their parents lied to them or not. I also think that there are greater educated kids now, and if you think more drink/smoke than from when you were in high school, you are probably wrong. It is probably the same amount.

The problem is, what you are saying is all subjective. There are no facts. It's just your opinion on "kids nowadays". I think many of the things you stated are false about todays youth, but you are welcome to your opinion. I just don't want you raising your kid to not believe in Santa because you're afraid they are going to become depressed or blow up a school when they grow up. It will have nothing to do with it.

[Ax]

Well if you want to start a debate, the raising of children offers the widest range of veiws on the planet. It's the one thing that everybody thinks they know best. It is also impossible to change peoples mind about their way verses your way. So I won't try.

Hell, most parents can't agree with each other.

Athough I have a son, and two grandchildren. None were raised by me in my home. Like Diehard said, "Any friggin idiot can impregnate a woman. Therefore, any friggin moron can be a father." That's me. But just because I haven't experienced every part of being a parent, doesn't mean I haven't experienced enough to have an opinion on how best to do it. But then again, my opinion and everybody else's, along with 10 dimes, will buy a dollars worth of gas.

Not lying to your children is (IMO) one of the most important things every parent should do for them. I just don't equate Christmas/Easter Bunny/Tooth Fairy etc..., though literally so, with lying to them. These celebrations can be a tool used to teach lessons to a child before they are old enough to understand or comprehend the truth. So that's how I choose to see it.

[Henry]

Die Hard, I think the point here is that we can talk football all day long here, but as soon as Patrick Ramsey logs on and says, "That's wrong. You don't know what you're talking about and I do. It's like this." I'm probably going to say "Ok. Thanks for letting me know."

Actually, that's exactly what we say when his brother tells us stuff.

To those of us who have kids, it is obvious you don't have kids. That doesn't make you a bad person or a future bad parent or anything. It just means you don't know what you're talking about. You THINK you do, but you don't.

NO father who loves and cares for his child is going to claim he's got the black and white answers, that he's going to do things THIS way and it WILL work. Because kids are people. They are all different. One might remember Santa as a part of the warm embrace of a happy childhood. The next might see it as a betrayal of trust. Real parents recognize that they don't know what's going to work, do what they think is right and hope for the best.

And when someone who isn't there yet tells those of us who are how HE's going to do things right. All we can do is shake our heads and smile. Because once you have a kid, you'll realize you don't have all the answers, just like the rest of us.

[GSF]

Originally posted by Die Hard

You did insult me.. insinuating that because I don't have a child I don't understand what it's like to be a parent.

I'm not insinuating anything. I'm saying it straight out - you don't understand what it's like to be a parent. If that insults you then I'm sorry about that. I read your whole response, and I'm not sure we're even talking about the same thing anymore. I agree with you that you have to be very honest with adolecents and help them to figure out that life isn't fair. But that's not the same thing as giving small children a scientific explanation why Santa isn't real. Anyways, Henry gave a much better explanation of what I was trying to say. One day you'll look back at this little debate and laugh.

[Tarhog]

I'm going to cover Die Hard's back here a little guys. I think the important core feature of parenting is that you pay attention to your kids and instill values that are dear to you in them. DH is dead-on there. I'm not so certain WHICH values are instilled is as important as some think, its the involvment and time spent with your kids that is crucial. I hate to admit it, but I've seen many parents who take positions I would NEVER take as parents, and guess what? Their kids turn out to be fine adults. I've seen it over and over. Does that mean I adopt their belief system, change my method of parenting? Absolutely not. My own Dad was a taskmaster. I got screamed at for bringing the wrong kind of wrench to him. I feared him a lot of the time. He rarely used the 'L' word to me growing up. But I turned out just fine (I swear). I am as affectionate a father as you'll ever find. I tell my kids I love them ever half-hour, and by my parent's standards, I spoil my kids rotten. And they are great kids.

There are a lot of ways to get to the finish line. And while DH's position re Santa may strike some as taking it too far, I'm betting he eventually raises some fine grown-up Redskin fanatics whether he ascribes to some little white lies or not. As for the 'you haven't been there' argument, there's always some validity to that, but be honest, we ALL think we know how we're going to parent going in, and we ALL adjust our attitude once faced with the actual task.

Its all good guys.

[SEF]

Originally posted by SkinsFanMania

If a 9 year old doesn't know already than something is really wrong!

When my 9 year old daughter was younger she asked us if there really was a Santa Claus. We said, "Do you want there to be a Santa Claus?". She thought for a second and said yes. She knew it was just for fun and didn't want it to stop.

[Henry]

Tarhog, I think we just said the same thing, didn't we?

All I know is a parent would never say "There's no flaw in my logic" when talking about their kids.

[The Wicked Wop]

Great post Henry, being a the proud papa of a little girl who just turned 2 today....I can relate. Fact is, their is no absolute right way to raise a child......because we are all different and require different methods of being raised. I can appreciate Die Hard's position, but on the flip side, by not letting a child dream to some degree, you could be damaging that child as well....or by trying to make the world so black and white to somebody that at the very least can't appreciate the concept. The only thing I really know about raising a child after 2 years is that the only given thing is your love for that child and having them know that. We don't get to spend as much time with her as we would like because of work, but its a great feeling seeing her smile and laugh all the time. Does that mean I'm raising her right.....no, but I guess it atleast lets me know that she is happy, and sometimes as a parent that is as much as you can hope for.

[Die Hard]

Wop - Hey, I'm all for letting a child be creative. What dreams are you speaking of? Are we talking about the "dreams" we have while we're sleeping? Or of setting goals and expectations within their lifespan?

I would expect we're not talking about shuteye sleep.

Because certainly any person can set standards and expectations - as high as they want - within the realm of "reality". They just have to understand the rules of the game.

And as parents, you would generally try to empart the wisdom of your experience on your child so they don't have to suffer the negative consequences of certain actions. I think we all do that out of love for the child. We only want whats best. And that isn't necessarily "happiness".

[codeorama]

So, should we tell our kids about the Boogey Man or not??

[The Wicked Wop]

I will not tell them there's a Santa Claus. I will not tell them there's an Easter Bunny. I will not tell them they can do anything they set their mind to. I will not tell them the world is fair. I will not introduce them to religion.

Die Hard, when I was talking about dreaming I was refering to this quote. I can appreciate your trying to quantify the social ills of Children today, and I agree its is far more rampant than in years past, but just imparting your wisdom on your children or not lying to them about these small issues doesn't insure their happiness of that they will clear from trouble. Fact is, excellent parents sometimes have terrible kids no matter how well they were treated....and on the flip side sometimes sh!ty parents have terrific kids. Why....it's because all the things you cant quanitfy, experiences, quality of friends, feelings, emotions etc. In the end, all I can do is to impart as much as I can on my children, as well as by picking my battles at the appropriate time. I kinda believing in telling a child you can do anything you set your mind to, that way they strive to do things, and then when their at an age where they can understand it better, you adjust what you were talking about so they can strive to meet attainable goals....hell I still get pissed off thinking about how my parents didn't do that kinda stuff for me, and thus I only started striving to accomplish things once I was out from their control.

[Woofer]

Originally posted by Die Hard

I will not lie to my children.

I will not tell them there's a Santa Claus. I will not tell them there's an Easter Bunny. I will not tell them they can do anything they set their mind to. I will not tell them the world is fair. I will not introduce them to religion.

You wanna know why kids are so disillusioned nowadays? Why I see so many youths attempting suicide or spending time in our psychiatric ward?

Because we lie to them every day. And when they find out life isn't what we've told them.... they lose their sense of trust and confidence.

I want my kids to enjoy life. And a big part of that is being prepared for it.

The inverse of that is that we lie and tell them there are no such things as monsters or demons.

There are monsters everywhere. We have to teach them that not all monsters are ugly and easily recognized. Teach them what to look for and how to spot a monster even when it looks pretty.

Demons are for sale. You can buy them in drugstores, supermarkets, or even on the street corner from a monster.

We should not teach our children to believe in any kind of ultimate giver, whether that giver is an elf or a rabbit or a fairie who buys our teeth.

We should not teach our children that the world owes them anything just for being good, or growing up. You have to earn your way.

The trick is to show them how to make their way in the world with honesty, pride in their own accomplishments, and respect for those around them who do the same.

[Die Hard]

Originally posted by The Wicked Wop

.... but just imparting your wisdom on your children or not lying to them about these small issues doesn't insure their happiness of that they will clear from trouble. Fact is, excellent parents sometimes have terrible kids no matter how well they were treated....and on the flip side sometimes sh!ty parents have terrific kids.

Excellent. I've discussed these exact statements already in the past few days in my personal life as well.

You're right. It doesn't ensure happiness. Quantify happiness? If you child enjoys beating up people... are you a proud parent? If you child enjoys making other people miserable? Are you fulfilled that you've done your role as a parent?

The role of a parent is to become a role model for their children to become a productive and dutiful human being with integrity. And to do so you have to make choices early in their lives that act in the best interests of that child.

Because your child wants something that you don't want to give to them - for whatever reason - and that child begins to cry.... are you as a parent not fulfilling their need that would encourage their happiness? Do you always give the child what he/she wants?

Is that truly the kind of wisdom and values we want in our children? Perhaps if they were told and shown that they had to earn and achieve their goals and expectations we'd be better served.

You set the boundaries very clear when they're young. Just as you do with a puppy. CONSISTENCY. You nip the problem in the early stages.

Do I have all the answers? Absolutely not.

What would I tell Tarhog concerning his 10-year old daughter who wants to dress like Britney Spears? I would tell her she can dress like that when she can afford to buy her own clothes.

That would imply her getting a job and being responsible. And if she's mature enough to do that... than she's also mature enough to find out there's consequences to the choices she makes. And when she's stereotyped by other people as a "slut".... as long as she can accept that consequence... I can live with it.

As long as my kids live in my house... they live by my rules. My rules aren't strict or unfair. But they're my rules.

[Woofer]

Originally posted by Kilmer17

I always thought it would be cool if you found out there really WAS a Santa Claus after you had kids.

I dont see anything wrong with a little lie that brings joy and excitement to kids.

It different than telling them big lies, like Democrats are good people.

Big lies and Little lies?

Big robbery and Little robbery?

Big murder and Little murder?

Little white lies:

"Yes Aunt Lily, I love the cookies." Even though they give you diarrhea every time.

For the rest of your life you get those cookies everytime you see Aunt Lily. And she lovingly watches you eat every single one.

You should have just told her the truth the first time. That way she could make something that you really do like.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"No hon, that dress doesn't make you look fat."

Later at the party, snickers and laughter follow your wife everytime she turns around. She is humiliated.

Without being rude, you could have helped your wife find something that is more flattering to her figure.

[Henry]

"Are you hiding Jews in your house?"

"Why yes, Herr Colonel. Right upstairs."

[Tarhog]

Thats exactly right Tony :applause:

And thats exactly what my daughter hears from me. One of the ironies of becoming a parent is that you hear the same words escaping your mouth that your parents uttered so many years ago. My daughter might not appreciate my stance, the rules we have in place at our house, now. But someday, she will.

[Die Hard]

Originally posted by RedskinFan in PA

The inverse of that is that we lie and tell them there are no such things as monsters or demons.

There are monsters everywhere. We have to teach them that not all monsters are ugly and easily recognized. Teach them what to look for and how to spot a monster even when it looks pretty.

Demons are for sale. You can buy them in drugstores, supermarkets, or even on the street corner from a monster.

We should not teach our children to believe in any kind of ultimate giver, whether that giver is an elf or a rabbit or a fairie who buys our teeth.

We should not teach our children that the world owes them anything just for being good, or growing up. You have to earn your way.

The trick is to show them how to make their way in the world with honesty, pride in their own accomplishments, and respect for those around them who do the same.

It seems we fundamentally agree on everything. Oddly, you just convinced yourself that it's the inverse of what I said. Your entire post is consistent with what I've preached. Reread my posts if necessary.

Just let's not be childish and confuse "temptations" (ie. which are ultimately "decisions") as DEMONS ok?

Cigarettes are not demons. Cocaine is not a demon.

If these things didn't have some benefit to each and every individual that consumed them.... they wouldn't be widespread.

The "decision" - and hence the "responsibility" - lies in the decision whether or not the enjoyment from those products outweighs the potential long-term health problems associated with them.

They're not demons. It's just what you value.