The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Rufus T Firefly]

8 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

And my contention is a good HC is also a football guy and can build the organization just as well, interviewing candidates for the GM job and selecting the best one.

 

My assumption is that the HC could then pick his staff, and the GM would run the scouting.

 

It doesn’t make any difference which comes first.  You find the best guy to come first on either role and go with it.

 

And I still say neither should report to each other.  They should be equal in authority and report to a higher level exec.  

Oh great. Neither will be in charge, so Dan will directly supervise both, meddling with both personnel and coaching.

 

[Llevron]

3 minutes ago, emoore0222 said:

That's untrue, most of us would be happy with something called WINNING!  I'm not asking that we have Patriot's level success but can we at least win one playoff game every five years!!!  If that can't be done just give us a professional product while we lose.

 

Hiring Rivera tomorrow in no way hinders us in this regard. Besides the obvious, we have in house guys that are very well respected through the league that everyone and they momma knew weren’t being listened to. The plan is to now listen to those guys and give Rivera players he can coach. 

 

Like Haskins, y’all are gonna have to give this time to see if it works or not. You guy damn sure don’t know already. If you did they would be calling you right now. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

21 minutes ago, emoore0222 said:

If a general managers job is to pick the players why do you hire/promote him after you pick the players?  Also, historically general manager do much more than just pick the players!

You can’t hire a personnel guy right now because GM contracts run through the draft with non-compete type clauses.  

 

A lot of organizations have gone to a structure where you have a top level exec who runs the team, a GM type who picks the players and runs the scouting department (which is a huge job) and a HC who obviously runs the coaching.

 

In the currently reported scenario, Schaffer is getting promoted to the top spot. Ron is HC and they will name the GM after the draft when they can get one from outside the organization.

 

Also, if it was a GM type who was unemployed, they might be able to do it sooner.  My gut is that Ron has his eye on either Kyle Smith, but they want to see how he does with more responsibility first, or somebody on another team. 

[Llevron]

6 minutes ago, emoore0222 said:

That's untrue, most of us would be happy with something called WINNING!  I'm not asking that we have Patriot's level success but can we at least win one playoff game every five years!!!  If that can't be done just give us a professional product while we lose.

 

Also this statement and mine can both be true. So we really have nothing to argue about. It’s a good day so far 

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Oh great. Neither will be in charge, so Dan will directly supervise both, meddling with both personnel and coaching.

Both will work for Schaffer.  Each with their own responsibilities. 

 

Dan can do whatever the hell he wants regardless of structure because he owns the damn team. 

[lavar1156]

How ironic is it that the QB Bruce Allen traded for ended up being a part of the group that led to his dismissal. Good stuff.

[Llevron]

1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Dan can do whatever the hell he wants regardless of structure because he owns the damn team. 

 

And we all know this. I don’t understand why we try to act like there is anything we can do to prevent it. 

[emoore0222]

10 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

And my contention is a good HC is also a football guy and can build the organization just as well, interviewing candidates for the GM job and selecting the best one.

 

My assumption is that the HC could then pick his staff, and the GM would run the scouting.

 

It doesn’t make any difference which comes first.  You find the best guy to come first on either role and go with it.

 

And I still say neither should report to each other.  They should be equal in authority and report to a higher level exec.  

Unfortunately, this doesn't work long term.  Teams with the most consistent success have general managers who oversee both the coaching staff and scouting department.  They are what keeps these organizations successful during times of transition.  If the head coach leaves they just put someone else in his place that matches their vision and no rebuild is needed.

[Voice_of_Reason]

7 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

And there's the issue, with 21 years of evidence to support the fact that it doesn't work when the owner is the "higher level exec" and also a buffoon

The Exec is Schaffer.  Dan is the owner.  

 

Again, you can try and wish that away, but it is t going to change.

 

Dan could screw everything up easily. And evidence shows he will.  

 

But my point is simple:  HC before GM or GM before HC doesn’t matter as long as they are on the same page and working together.  

Just now, emoore0222 said:

Unfortunately, this doesn't work long term.  Teams with the most consistent success have general managers who oversee both the coaching staff and scouting department.  They are what keeps these organizations successful during times of transition.  If the head coach leaves they just put someone else in his place that matches their vision and no rebuild is needed.

Except that’s just not true.  The most glaring example are the Patriots. 

 

The 49ers don’t have that setup. 

 

Some do, some don’t.  

 

There are multiple ways of doing things.  Getting locked into the 1970’s GM runs the organization and picks coach is just outdated. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

3 minutes ago, lavar1156 said:

How ironic is it that the QB Bruce Allen traded for ended up being a part of the group that led to his dismissal. Good stuff.

 

Was getting rid of Bruce Allen worth a 3rd round draft pick and Kendall Fuller?....

 

[Rufus T Firefly]

4 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Both will work for Schaffer.  Each with their own responsibilities. 

 

Dan can do whatever the hell he wants regardless of structure because he owns the damn team. 

LOL. Well, you're just inventing a power structure and acting like you know it's how things are now.

 

Yes, we all know Dan owns the team and can do what he wants. But you know most owners, who are much smarter than Snyder, actually let football people run the football operations, right?

 

And now, by all indications, Dan has himself picked his coach, and looks to be picking the Front Office structure. But no reason to think Dan Snyder can't do a great job of micromanaging like that. It's not like we have two decades worth of evidence that he is the worst person to do so or anything.

 

But go ahead and defend it. Enjoy our delusions. I'll talk to you in a couple of years, when you're scratching your head about why this didn't work out.

[Peregrine]

So the guys in the building responsible for the decisions for the next several years, are the same guys who were responsible for all of the decisions from the last several years.  But everyone gets a different job title.  

 

Sweet.  Dan Snyder looked at his 3-13 franchise losing fans every year and said "This is serious, lets change nothing"

[Voice_of_Reason]

17 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

LOL. Well, you're just inventing a power structure and acting like you know it's how things are now.

 

Yes, we all know Dan owns the team and can do what he wants. But you know most owners, who are much smarter than Snyder, actually let football people run the football operations, right?

 

And now, by all indications, Dan has himself picked his coach, and looks to be picking the Front Office structure. But no reason to think Dan Snyder can't do a great job of micromanaging like that. It's not like we have two decades worth of evidence that he is the worst person to do so or anything.

 

But go ahead and defend it. Enjoy our delusions. I'll talk to you in a couple of years, when you're scratching your head about why this didn't work out.

I have absolutely no idea if it's going to work.  

 

I'm not even really defending it.

 

What I'm stating is that there is absolutely no reason to pick the GM before the HC.  That's it.  Dan has to pick one of them first.  Because he owns the team.  And I don't honestly care if he picks the GM first and then they together find the coach, or he picks the coach first, and they together pick the GM.  You've got to start somewhere, and since Dan is the starting point, he's got to do SOMETHING.  And I believe that a good football coach knows just as much about how to pick a good GM as a good GM knows how to pick a good coach.  

 

Since Dan has to make the first move, to me it doesn't matter which one he picks first.  

 

And if he elevates Eric to be the day-to-day runner of football ops, and both the HC and GM work for Eric, that's fine.  Ultimately, they ALL work for Dan, and there's just no getting around that.  So all I want is competence.  I think Ron is competent.  I think Eric is competent.  And I have no idea who they're going to tag as GM yet, so we can figure out the competence of that pick after it's made.

 

We will know more tomorrow, but my guess, based on what I'm seeing reported, is Eric is essentially given Bruce's old job of "head of football ops," Ron is the HC, and they are sticking with the scouting department through the draft.  When they will make a decision to either promote Kyle Smith to GM, or hire somebody from outside the organization to fill that role.

 

Ideally, the GM then has roster control, the HC has coaching staff control and control of the game-day roster, and Dan sits on his yacht.  Ideally.  

 

There are 1000 ways Dan can screw this up.  And history indicates he will.  But hiring Ron before a GM is not going to cause the entire organization to blow up. 

 

[lavar1156]

 

That last sentence...

[charles mannley]

48 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

And I believe that a good football coach knows just as much about how to pick a good GM as a good GM knows how to pick a good coach. 

Wow. I can’t get behind this thought because there is a thing called chemistry. It’s part of the reason marriages fail.

 

Most everyone believes we have a culture issue and I believe that to be true.  That comes from Snyder and Allen.  It changed briefly with McCloughan.

 

T o instill that it needs to start with good leadership a part of good leadership is organization and follow through.  Along with a standard and expectations to achieve that standard. Someone with the brain power and experience to execute.

 

Now I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but I believe it’s the consensus we won’t achieve this with Snyder.  So In my perfect world I want Snyder to put all the aforementioned responsibilities on one individual(GM). That way it is run the way that they can have their stamp on it and have they control their destiny.  The GM is above the HC and scouting(he doesn’t have to be fully involved with the game planning end).  It runs top down the way any organization is run. 
 

Now maybe it works, but I believe more often than not it won’t. It’s pretty much shooting the moon.

[Peregrine]

First real belief I have had that Allen is completely out.  Wow.

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 minutes ago, charles mannley said:

So In my perfect world I want Snyder to put all the aforementioned responsibilities on one individual(GM). That way it is run the way that they can have their stamp on it and have they control their destiny.  The GM is above the HC and scouting(he doesn’t have to be fully involved with the game planning end).  It runs top down the way any organization is run. 
 

Now maybe it works, but I believe more often than not it won’t. It’s pretty much shooting the moon.

And here’s what I don’t get: you’re willing to put all the eggs in the GM basket and let them run the show, why not doing the same with the coach? It’s essentially identical, just a mirror version. 

 

I don’t actually like either option.  I don’t think the GM should report to the coach and I don’t think the coach should report to the GM. Both are equally important in my opinion.  You’ve got to pick the right players and you have to coach them.  It’s a symbiotic relationship. 

 

If the head guy was the GM I’d have no problem with that.  

 

But what Dan is essentially doing is putting faith in Ron.  And Ron has to be up to the task. 

 

Shrug.  There are plenty of ways to skin a cat 

[wilco_holland]

People are over reacting to the order of thinks. GMs get way to much credit around the league. Every year coaching staffs get fired but the GM stays and gets a second or third time to hire his guy. 

 

At the end you want to have a good partnerships. A head coach and GM who share a vision and keep each other sharp & accountable. We chose the HC and now will take time to find a GM who fits with that. Kyle has the inside track, can work with Ron the upcoming weeks. See if that combination works. After the draft we can try to hire a new guy if necessary. It's easier to change FO after the draft, then before. Most teams will just run with a new GM and same scouting staff. 

 

I'm not saying this is the way but I don't see an direct issue. If the FO can support coaching staff with talented players and a good roster, that's great. If the coaching staff can develop players and get most out of there potential, amazing. They depend on each other. 

[TSO]

9 hours ago, KDawg said:

Making a hire just to keep a guy, who were not sure is any good, on staff is more of the same. No thanks.

 

10 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Not to insult KOC and compare him to Haslett, but this smells like the same type of scenario we’ve seen in the past.  Hire a head coach who will take some leftovers.

This is 100% the right take to have, but unfortunately it’s already too late. 
 

The moment we drafted Haskins when Jay was a lame duck we already began the process of organizational mistiming that is a Snyder fixture. 
 

In fact, I’d say the two biggest, consistent, failings of Snyder’s ownership has been his reactionary behavior as well as his horrendous timing (the latter of which is partly a function of the former). Which is crazy because you’d think the lack of proper organizational structure was enough! 
 

It’s so hard to have any cohesion or loyalty when things are done this way. How Bruce was able to even fire Jay without it meaning he was even more deserving of being let go makes zero sense. Only in Dan’s mind is that even remotely sensical organizationally. 
 

If we’re to take most of the reports coming from legit sources at face value, Bruce is still around acting as Team President while Snyder is looking for a coach by himself. Never mind the issues with that, of which there are many, but what is he looking for exactly according to these reports? 
 

A veteran coach. A guy who’s been around in the NFL and has experience as HC. 
 

Say it with me. Reactionary.
 

Why is that so important? Because the previous hire was an up comer in Jay who didn’t have previous HC experience, that must be the problem says Dan! 
 

You see, it can’t be anything he did. It can’t be his top exec perpetually failing at resource management in the worst of ways! It can’t be the poorly structured environment he’s created in which brings out the worst in people and the longer they remain, the more their strengths diminish while their weaknesses get highlighted. We can’t wonder why inexperience is such an issue and there’s little to no growth and development that occurs within this environment! Nope, never that Dan!!! 
 

Because, surely, experienced vet at HC who gets hired never fails in the NFL! That’s the perfect criterion to prioritize during this “hiring process” if we can call it that, right Dan!? 
 

Brilliant!  
 

What if the best, most qualified guy for the job comes from that pool of inexperience? Well, now, thanks to Dan, we’ll never know. He simply doesn’t have the ability to assess that and, hey, the last one was inexperienced and failed... so, yup, let’s flip it and try this now because, you know, that inexperience must’ve been the biggest reason why he failed! 
 

Reactionary with terrible timing and zero self reflection. Just total flip flops philosophically, no solid ground to be found. That’s our beloved owner. And, thus far, every report we’ve received points to those two attributes still being prevalent. 
 

Hopefully we get surprised. I’m still holding on to that one last shred of hope that sees Bruce totally out, a legit GM hired with respected personnel chops and a coach that matches what he wants to do well, and it all coming as a result of a professional hiring process that went through the NFL’s best. 
 

If it’s Rivera as the reports are pointing to now, I’m holding on desperately to that one quote he had about not expecting final say over personnel showing that HE, AT LEAST, GETS IT. So maybe he’ll be the one to force the change in Dan. It won’t be orthodox, of course, but it’s all we have right now. 

[Burgundy Yoda]

I'm happy Alex Smith seems to have said the right things and made the right moves to kind of seed himself into a front-office type of position. He's a great guy, and is a winner. I think he basically hit the lotto by getting traded here, not only is his contract nice and fat, he's going to have a job after the NFL. 

[88Comrade2000]

3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

If they’re winning he will leave them alone.  

I expect the winning only to happen in Year 1 and 2.  Losing begins in Year 3 and everything falls apart in Year 4.

[nonniey]

2 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

Was getting rid of Bruce Allen worth a 3rd round draft pick and Kendall Fuller?....

 

Are we getting rid of Allen? If he is anywhere in the organization we didn't get rid of him. 

[88Comrade2000]

Dan won't get rid of Bruce but Bruce may tell Dan to go **** himself and resign.

 

The ultimate irony would be Bruce does go to the Rams and while he's there, the Rams win a Superbowl.

The Skins replicate Rivera's inconsistency with the Panthers.

[ANONYMOUS SOURCE.]

If Alex Smiths voice had a hand in moving Allen and righting the ship he should get a statue in front of the new Stadium.... one of his wife too, she’s something else lol.