The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[WeThreeKingsRuleU]

 

I'm told, the news he broke is that Trent is planning on ending his hold out soon, someone give this a listen?

[BayouBrave86]

Gruden is such a puppet. I honestly feel sort of bad for him. What happens if Guice goes down again? He really thought cutting AP was smart? Perine would be our starter?? LOL

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

5 minutes ago, WeThreeKingsRuleU said:

 

I'm told, the news he broke is that Trent is planning on ending his hold out soon, someone give this a listen?

I didn't listen but that is true. I posted in the Trent thread. He'll be back next week. I can't tell you how I know and I know there is no shortage of dudes who come on websites claiming to have insider info... Give me a week and I'll be right though.

[Skinsinparadise]

Kilgore and Sheehan going back and forth just now about the Dan story.   

 

He didn't add much to the story.  My takes on the picture painted going back and forth with him and Sheehan:

 

Dan is socially awkward.    He doesn't like many of the owners.  They don't like him.  He's not part of the cool kids so to speak in the NFL.  He's an outsider.  And its not that the other owners closed him out of the circle but Dan is the retiring type and doesn't like to socialize with them, rarely joins owner committees, etc.  Major exception being Jerry who Dan likes to emulate.  But those around the owners say Dan is an awkward version of Jerry, he doesn't have Jerry's personality and gravitas. 

 

Bruce is more liked among that crowd.  But some people don't see him as a shrewd advisor and they don't understand his longevity in DC.   Kilgore said from what he heard Bruce's longevity is based a lot on his friendship with Dan.  They both really dig each other and get on really well.

 

There is the thought by some that Dan won't build a winner because he doesn't seem to study or care about other examples of winning teams.  He seems to like beating to his own drum.   Some say its the NFL so anything can happen and luck can strike. 

 

He said some who know him have said he has not as impulsive or as imperious as he was 10-15 years ago.   But they say he was so bad on both of those fronts back then that its hard not improve off of it.  And, he's still impulsive and impervious and it's plenty bad enough.

 

As for the stadium, he said people were mixed about it.  Some thought Bruce's connections would matter.  Some thought Bruce was overselling his connections and he won't have the juice to get it done and neither Dan and Bruce have the sophistication to get it done. 

 

Kilgore said the days of backroom deals for stadiums are somewhat over (I agree from what I've seen in another state) but he's not sure Dan and Bruce get that.  He talked to one person who is an expert on stadium deals and they thought zero chance they will get the stadium by 2028.

[CTskin]

 

Cutting AP? Perine?

 

 

[Bang]

20 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

I typically would agree with this.

 

But then we have this odd placed fascination with holding onto Williams. If they would just trade him I'd be more on board with this logic. The fact that they're holding on for dear life with him scares me for Allen's plans. 

 

Maybe it's because I'm gunshy... but I'm still not on board with the way this franchise is managed.

I think if Geron Christian resembled something close to an NFL player, we may be closer to that.

 

~Bang

[Bang]

The Junkies and their sources.. 😆

 

So.. Jay wants to cut his team MVP, a true locker room leader who holds every player's respect.. who just signed a 2 yr extension.. 

So he can roll with Derrius Guice's questionable knee, Chris thompsons annual serious leg injury, Samaje Perine's awesome 4 yard/ 2 fumble per month average, and Byron Marshall's uncanny ability to make the wrong play. 

 

because..   umm..

Uhh...

 

Well, Sheehan opined this AM that it was because he doesn't want to deal with AP in his ear on the bench,, that he doesn't like AP being a pain in the ass on the sidelines. Cited Sean Payton and the Cardinals letting him go. 
And i am wondering when Jay may have experienced this.
AP played every game last year, he was spelled here and there, but was the bell-cow. Does AP do this in preseason games he isn't even dressed for?

 

Nah, i doubt it.

Sheehan is reaching trying to find something to make that ridiculous load of 106.7 horse**** sound logical.

 

 

~Bang

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

The whole “cutting Peterson” thing is a perfect example of how terrible our beltway pundits are.  It’s absolutely ridiculous and little more than professional trolling.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

47 minutes ago, Bang said:

 

Nah, i doubt it.

Sheehan is reaching trying to find something to make that ridiculous load of 106.7 horse**** sound logical.

Just out of curiosity, why do you think Kevin would want to validate his competition?

 

It sounds kind of wild to want to cut AP, yes.  But I can totally get a coach not wanting to deal with AP's stares, glares and whatever else might come up when he's not getting the carries he desires.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

26 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Just out of curiosity, why do you think Kevin would want to validate his competition?

 

It sounds kind of wild to want to cut AP, yes.  But I can totally get a coach not wanting to deal with AP's stares, glares and whatever else might come up when he's not getting the carries he desires.

 

My thought too...the only reason I can come up with is because he believes it himself so he's trying to validate it. Otherwise, it would be low-hanging-fruit to dispute the competition's rumors. 

[Bang]

31 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Just out of curiosity, why do you think Kevin would want to validate his competition?

 

It sounds kind of wild to want to cut AP, yes.  But I can totally get a coach not wanting to deal with AP's stares, glares and whatever else might come up when he's not getting the carries he desires.

i don't know that he was trying to validate it..   just exploring how it might be possible was the feeling i got.

 

~Bang

[Alexa]

On 9/2/2019 at 1:11 PM, Burgold said:

I really wonder what Dan Snyder thought when he saw the haul Miami got for Tunsil? As others have pointed out, Tunsil is a average, not even good left tackle, and despite the sour grapes logic, I'd bet if the compensation were equal that 25 out of 32 GMs would go for Williams over Tunsil.

 

Not only is Williams' elite, but he is considered a leader and a tough guy. Tunsil is considered lazy and uneven.

TW is old and breaks down. No one is giving up a bunch of draft picks for a 30+ year old tackle that is or will be on the downside of his career. 

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, Alexa said:

TW is old and breaks down. No one is giving up a bunch of draft picks for a 30+ year old tackle that is or will be on the downside of his career. 

 

This point is lost entirely too often.

 

A guy who has an injury history, is now a holdout threat, and is aging vs. a young guy who isn't oft-injured, not the same caliber player (admittedly)

 

The Texans overpaid. Regardless. But I'd rather have Tunsil for 6-8 years for 12-16 games/season  than Williams for 3-4 seasons for 10ish games/season

[Riggo#44]

19 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

This point is lost entirely too often.

 

A guy who has an injury history, is now a holdout threat, and is aging vs. a young guy who isn't oft-injured, not the same caliber player (admittedly)

 

The Texans overpaid. Regardless. But I'd rather have Tunsil for 6-8 years for 12-16 games/season  than Williams for 3-4 seasons for 10ish games/season

 

I think, even if/when Trent returns, Allen botched this. Trent isn't going to be here in 2-3 years, he is a possible malcontent. We aren't competing this year. Get off the mediocre bus and try to get better in the near future.

 

But you know Allen's ego and all.

[sportjunkie07]

25 minutes ago, Alexa said:

TW is old and breaks down. No one is giving up a bunch of draft picks for a 30+ year old tackle that is or will be on the downside of his career. 

I disagree. The injuries are something to consider but I think they are relatively unimportant. Trents had no one of value near him since he was drafted. When you overextend yourself it wears on you. I think he'll be play late in his his career and at a high level as most elite tackles do.

 

Trent Williams is the guy you want if your team is making a playoff push. He does things no other tackle in the NFL can do. That alone has massive value. Every single team in the NFL would be better if trent was on their roster.

 

The bidding starts at a 1st imo, and could potentially vary upward massively. 

 

It is pretty clear to me that Bruce wasn't going to trade trent as there were clearly teams interested. 

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, sportjunkie07 said:

I disagree. The injuries are something to consider but I think they are relatively unimportant. Trents had no one of value near him since he was drafted. When you overextend yourself it wears on you. I think he'll be play late in his his career and at a high level as most elite tackles do.

 

Trent Williams is the guy you want if your team is making a playoff push. He does things no other tackle in the NFL can do. That alone has massive value. Every single team in the NFL would be better if trent was on their roster.

 

The bidding starts at a 1st imo, and could potentially vary upward massively. 

 

It is pretty clear to me that Bruce wasn't going to trade trent as there were clearly teams interested. 

 

 

Agree.  The whole Trent will bring back a ham sandwich narrative isn't backed by anyone that I recall.

 

Garafalo, Breer, Laconfora, Schefter all said at least a first rounder.  And that's with them checking around.  Their only disagreement was 2 of them said they heard just a first round and the other 2 heard a first and change.

 

Multiple national reporters said multiple teams were interested in Trent.  

 

Duane Brown who was about a year older than Trent and not as good fetched a 2nd and 4th.  G. Zimmerman who was older fetched a first and a 2nd and an additional pick.

 

Having said that I think the conversation might be moot because it seems like they are keeping him.  

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree.  The whole Trent will bring back a ham sandwich narrative isn't backed by anyone that I recall.

 

 

 

Not sure that's the narrative being discussed currently.

 

It's the "Well, Miami got 2 1sts and a 2nd for Tunsil! We should have gotten that for Trent!"

 

1) Miami overpaid.

2) Tunsil has more long term value than Trent due to age/injury history

 

That's not to say, and was never used to say at least in this recent convo, that Trent has no trade value.

[NickyJ]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

......

It's the "Well, Miami got 2 1sts and a 2nd for Tunsil! We should have gotten that for Trent!"

 

1) Miami overpaid.

..................

Miami gave too much? They could have gotten away with using someone worth less than Tunsil?

 

 

Seriously though, I get your point, and I think there's someone being forgotten in this: Kenny Stills. He's no MVP, but I think it's fair to debate whether he was the 2nd first rounder or the 2nd round pick.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

2 hours ago, Bang said:

The Junkies and their sources.. 😆

 

So.. Jay wants to cut his team MVP, a true locker room leader who holds every player's respect.. who just signed a 2 yr extension.. 

So he can roll with Derrius Guice's questionable knee, Chris thompsons annual serious leg injury, Samaje Perine's awesome 4 yard/ 2 fumble per month average, and Byron Marshall's uncanny ability to make the wrong play. 

 

because..   umm..

Uhh...

 

Well, Sheehan opined this AM that it was because he doesn't want to deal with AP in his ear on the bench,, that he doesn't like AP being a pain in the ass on the sidelines. Cited Sean Payton and the Cardinals letting him go. 
And i am wondering when Jay may have experienced this.
AP played every game last year, he was spelled here and there, but was the bell-cow. Does AP do this in preseason games he isn't even dressed for?

 

Nah, i doubt it.

Sheehan is reaching trying to find something to make that ridiculous load of 106.7 horse**** sound logical.

 

 

~Bang

 

 

 

Somewhere, Art is kicking himself for not trademarking "fake news" when he had the chance.

 

Here's my approach to the Redkins' media coverage. I believe everything. Because eventually it all becomes true. Right now, I think Peterson is going to be released after the bye, because that's what the Redskins do. Laugh in the face of a story....and then prove it totally true six weeks later.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Not sure that's the narrative being discussed currently.

 

It's the "Well, Miami got 2 1sts and a 2nd for Tunsil! We should have gotten that for Trent!"

 

1) Miami overpaid.

2) Tunsil has more long term value than Trent due to age/injury history

 

That's not to say, and was never used to say at least in this recent convo, that Trent has no trade value.

 

I used the ham sandwich metaphor to colorfully make a point.  I know no one is saying Trent has no value.   But there has been a debate for weeks about whether Trent was worth much or not so much.  

 

On the two threads where this is being discussed, I didn't really notice a lot of we could have gotten the same for Trent that was had for Tunsil -- but much more if the Texans were willing to give a haul for a LT we likely could have gotten one too.  When that point is delved into, multiple people (including me) concede that it would be less than what the Texans gave for Tunsil. 

 

You got previous trade precedents for LT's about Trent's age.  And multiple national reporters who often don't agree with each other converging pretty much at the same place on what they hear his trade value is.  That is, they should get at least a first for Trent. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

4 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

 

Somewhere, Art is kicking himself for not trademarking "fake news" when he had the chance.

 

Here's my approach to the Redkins' media coverage. I believe everything. Because eventually it all becomes true. Right now, I think Peterson is going to be released after the bye, because that's what the Redskins do. Laugh in the face of a story....and then prove it totally true six weeks later.

 

This is so true. At least 2 dozen times on this board I've mocked the reports that have come out about the Redskins. Over time I've realized that they are always proven correct (or very close). 

 

We are a poorly-run organization. That means that the benefit of the doubt goes to the reporters or pundits until they are proven wrong. 

[NickyJ]

To me, it's not even about benefit of the doubt. It's just using common sense. AP has been extremely clear about what he's wanted in the past: To be a starter. He got to be a starter last year, and I wouldn't be surprised if he thought that he'd be a starter this year over the kid coming off a gimpy leg. I know I thought he would be.

 

With all that in mind, he hasn't said that he can't wait to be a backup and sit on a recliner on the sideline. He's been all about starting since before he got here. And suddenly, for the sake of our convenience, he's going to stop caring about starting because......... Because it feels good for us to assume that it's going to be one big happy backfield?

 

Maybe in AP's situation, his desire for money will outpace his desire to start. I dunno, but I'm not going into this expecting that Peterson will choose the path more convenient for us just because we're special.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

46 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

This is so true. At least 2 dozen times on this board I've mocked the reports that have come out about the Redskins. Over time I've realized that they are always proven correct (or very close). 

 

We are a poorly-run organization. That means that the benefit of the doubt goes to the reporters or pundits until they are proven wrong. 

I'm glad you said that.  When it comes from me, I'm just hating and anxiously waiting to be 'right' about the Skins being dysfunctional.

 

Typically, there is always at least a little truth behind every rumor.  Even with this AP rumor, it seems like a wierd rumor for anyone to just make up for the sake of making it up.  It could be something like Jay openly saying that he knows AP is going to be annoying when Guice is the guy and it got exaggerated into they were going to cut him.  

[Skinsinparadise]

I am guessing the Junkies source is a mutual friend one of them has with Jay.  It's a mutual golfing buddy.  They've talked about it on other shows.  Junkies are the ones that had the Alex medical issue not going well before anyone else.  But otherwise they don't have much.  They occasionally share an amusing story that they get from their mutual friend with Jay about Jay.

 

On the Peterson thing.  Jay could have just off handily mentioned that they considered it or he worried about it.  It's possible that he said he wanted to cut him.  But I figured it wouldn't be too hard to make a rumor about just the thought process. 

[KillBill26]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

 

Not sure that's the narrative being discussed currently.

 

It's the "Well, Miami got 2 1sts and a 2nd for Tunsil! We should have gotten that for Trent!"

 

1) Miami overpaid.

2) Tunsil has more long term value than Trent due to age/injury history

 

That's not to say, and was never used to say at least in this recent convo, that Trent has no trade value.

I don't understand using the argument that "Houston overpaid" (I know you wrote Miami, but i know what you mean)  I agree, they absolutely overpaid.  But that doesn't mean they couldn't have overpaid us, and that doesn't mean another team won't overpay us when they are desparate for a LT.  It all comes down to: first, are the Redskins going to be willing to part with Trent in a move that may be weakening the short term for a long term gain.  And second, if they decide they are willing to trade him, can Bruce actually get maximum value.  He does not have a track record of getting value in trades.  Andy Reid does.  Belichick does.  BA doesn't. 

 

But the fact that Houston overpaid is not a valid argument as to why the Redskins can't secure just as nice of a haul for Trent from someone else.  Lack of another opportunity where everything aligns just right, that's a valid point against it. Trent's age, injury and suspension history, those are valid points as to why tunsil potentially carries more value thant Trent in a trade.  But another team may very well overpay again, especially now that the tunsil trade can be a reflection of what the market dictates the going rate for a quality LT is, even if the world knows houston overpaid.   If I'm trying to negotiate a home purchase, I can't dismiss the comps by just saying, "yeah well they all overpaid".  

 

Just to be clear, as someone who has been saying for weeks that the Redskins needed to trade Trent to the highest bidder, I am very disappointed the Redskins sat on their hands and let Miami collect all those draft picks.  I do think we missed the boat and I don't think we are going to get an offer of that magnitude, but that has more to do with Houston being the perfect trade partner at the perfect time, and a lack of a situation as promising as that elsewhere, not the fact that a prior deal should be dismissed as overpaying.  The going rate is the going rate, and a potential opportunity to sell high needs to be pounced on.

 

I feel the same people who dismiss that trade as Houston overpaying are the same people that said "tunsil and stills would never return two firsts and a second.". Well, it happened.