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The Bruce Allen/GM Thread


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4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think the Alex Smith move was one that you do if you feel like you are close.  That was my issue with it then and still through today.  Sometimes it helps to take a step back to take two steps forward.   The Browns as an example according to a reporter were interested in Alex Smith but didn't promise they wouldn't take a young QB early in the draft, too -- and supposedly Alex's agent didn't like that.  Who would we rather be now -- us or the Browns?

 

If the idea of acquiring Alex just keeps things same old same old then what's the point?  As this PFF guy says:

 

 

 

I probably agree. I didn't hate the Alex Smith move per se and he brought grit and professionalism to the team which was good, but the original move did feel like a PR move more than anything else. His re-signing even more so. Bruce wanted to declare the world, "See! We can sign a quarterback. All our woes was the reasonableness of the Cousins' camp!!!"

 

Getting Smith wasn't a bad idea, but I still think it was done in haste and more for PR reasons than football ones even though we clearly needed a QB. Mind you, it wasn't a bad move. Just one that turned out badly. 

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2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

London wouldn't be bad for him either?  I flew once from London to Amsterdam, short flight.  Easier for him than it is for me right now flying up from South Florida.

London would be better, I was just kidding with our news anchor @Wildbunny

It seems that 17 years old is the new obsolete (when Snyder started seeking for a new stadium)

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17 hours ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Vinny always came off as a stupid lackey blind squirrel  that tripped over himself, but always tended to find an acorn at the right time to save himself (until he ultimately pulled off the biggest draft day fail in Skins history). But I felt his heart was in the right place

 

Bruce seems like the evil dictators favorite general that is incompetent, but delights said dictator with his torture prowess, and no one wants to be around him (because he's, you know, evil, and also smells of ridiculously cheap cologne

 

 

One vote for Vinny

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4 hours ago, Burgold said:

 

Getting Smith wasn't a bad idea, but I still think it was done in haste and more for PR reasons than football ones even though we clearly needed a QB. Mind you, it wasn't a bad move. Just one that turned out badly. 

 

I wrote a long post before they made any move last year and I listed a trade for Alex Smith as worse case scenario.    Not because i didn't like him as a player but because he typically wasn't a top 10 QB and to rely on him at 34 to carry this team I think was misguided.  If they had a great roster at the time, maybe, but he wasn't the type of QB who was going to elevate a roster on his own.  So my thought was and it remains to be the case if they want to get off the 7-9-9-7 treadmill -- then go young, get a QB on a cheap contract and go for the kill long term. 

 

I've seen a lot today that Denver might still plan to draft a QB early.  That's smart.  You aren't betting your future totally on a mid 30 year old QB.  I'll add that the irony is one of my concerns back then that I laid out -- is the problem with mid 30 athletes is if they get hurt they don't tend to heal as quickly and as fast as a younger player and bounce back the same way.  That was explained to me by an orthopedist that I know.

 

Having said that, some were cool with the trade, too.  I didn't like the idea at the time and I still don't.  But it wasn't a crazy idea either.  My issue with it is if you are giving up youth to go older (both at QB and losing a pick and a young emerging player) then the team better be a win now roster.  I didn't see it that way.  As I said then, I'd have liked the deal if we had Jax's roster.

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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4 hours ago, Burgold said:

 

Getting Smith wasn't a bad idea, but I still think it was done in haste and more for PR reasons than football ones even though we clearly needed a QB. Mind you, it wasn't a bad move. Just one that turned out badly. 

 

I agree. I went on record 12 months before we signed him saying he'd be our QB in 2018. I think getting him had merit. You make a good point about it being done in haste. The injury is outright unfortunate, I'd say what sticks in the throat more than anything is the cost. The pick, Fuller, the guaranteed cash. Bad contract, Bad cost, but personally I think Smith could have had a viable place here for say three seasons.

 

Tough **** now. For all the talk that we have no cap space, I still think Bruce is gonna pull the tigger on another vet QB deal. This time though I think we will also draft one.

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1 hour ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

I agree. I went on record 12 months before we signed him saying he'd be our QB in 2018. I think getting him had merit. You make a good point about it being done in haste. The injury is outright unfortunate, I'd say what sticks in the throat more than anything is the cost. The pick, Fuller, the guaranteed cash. Bad contract, Bad cost, but personally I think Smith could have had a viable place here for say three seasons.

 

Tough **** now. For all the talk that we have no cap space, I still think Bruce is gonna pull the tigger on another vet QB deal. This time though I think we will also draft one.

The problem with the idea that the move itself wasnt bad, is that none of it made sense, Smith didnt seem to be a good option, and what we paid for him was rightly viewed at the time as too expensive.  

Most people at the time of the deal thought he was mediocre at best(he was), and that we were overpaying(we were) due to ONE good last year in KC.  Paying that much salary for a QB of his age, and caliber was a big issue, but the bigger part of why it was a bad deal at the time is we could have gotten a mediocre QB on the FA market, and instead we gave up a 3rd round pick, and a CB that it turned out we desperately needed.

 

The only way Smith would have been viable here is in the imaginations of those who thought that his last season in KC was what he was like every year, rather than a 1 in 15 fluke.  He was never going to amount to much, and most everyone knew it.

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19 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

 

The only way Smith would have been viable here is in the imaginations of those who thought that his last season in KC was what he was like every year, rather than a 1 in 15 fluke.  He was never going to amount to much, and most everyone knew it.

 

I think Smiths record 2013-17 was enough to suggest he'd be a 'viable' option here. But at the the right trade value and contract cost. They clearly were not right from the offset, he then got mangled. 

 

Sticking up around 3,500 yards like he'd done the 4 years prior, with a backfield game churning out another 1,500 total years could easily have worked.

 

But the third rounder, Fuller, and the contracted money make all that discussion redundant. It's proven to be a debilitating trade. Can't argue with that now.

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I heard excerpts of Liz Clarke who was on the radio yesterday.  Her take was:

 

A.  Her sense (but she doesn't know for sure) that is Maryland isn't playing games -- they are likely sincerely out.  But they kept the door slightly ajar just in case

 

B.  They are gun shy standing toe to toe with Dan with his popularity not being that hot

 

She went on to more or less say that the Redskins stock right now is at a low point considering they got a front office person who would be booed if Redskins fans had a chance to do it and with a team without really any marquee stars to market or idea that they are poised to be big winners. 

 

And that probably pervades over this stadium effort.  That point to me seems ridiculously obvious to me.  The bigger question is does it seem obvious to Dan.

 

My take about all of this is this team is in a weird spot at least from the perspective of a fan like me who doesn't want an owner who interferes.  We got Bruce and Jay very likely (judging by their public comments) selling Dan that all is right with the world and don't listen to anyone who tells you otherwise.  And I don't blame either one for selling this because I think anyone of us would do the same if our job security was on the line.   

 

So Dan is likely sold this narrative of optimism while chaos is around him -- fans going nuts on social media, leaving messages at Redskins Park.  The stadium quest not going well.  Seeing articles that purport that some of his colleagues around the league think he and Bruce are a joke.  Heck Mike Lombardi who worked with Bruce in Oakland is now freely making fun of him at every turn on twitter.   And I'd put money that their attempt to procure season ticket holders isn't going to go well.

 

So among Dan's issues according to some is he's an emotional high strung dude who makes rash decisions which aren't very good.   So do we want that dude to surface?  Part of me says yes, part of me says no.  The no part of me is stronger -- I don't like to set any precedent for Dan to interfere.  But at the same time, I can't stand the smugness of Bruce's sell (while understand why he's doing it) that they are close and hey the fans are just passionate and he shares that passion.   And I'd love to see that crash because I see that as BS.

 

I do think this team is the Titanic headed to the iceberg.  And its probably better in the long run for it to just crash.   Darkest before the dawn.    The over the top overweight person not changing until they have a heart attack, etc.   The off season is young and if they get lucky they might be able to save it.    But if they do same old same old off season -- I think we are headed for a crash. 

 

I also think they underestimate the lack of star power dynamic with the team.  Heck Finlay talked about it today about why they might not be a good candidate for Hard Knocks and Liz Clark mentioned it even in the context of the stadium.  The lack of star power to me I think encapsulates for me when Jay talked up hey we liked Calais Campbell but we ended up instead with 2 guys, McGee and McClain.  And i like Jay but that wasn't one of his finest moments selling that point.    Vinny was at one extreme of the spectrum on selling excitement but the pendulum has swung IMO way too far the other way with Bruce.  And I do think among other things they are paying a price for it.  I think the point they miss is 7-9 isn't the end of the world but if they do 7-9 and they are boring too.   That takes a toll.  Not from people like us but the more casual fan which they need to sell tickets. 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Good summary @Skinsinparadise 

 

One thing that seems extremely short-sighted for a state/city is basing the benefits of building a stadium on the current state of a team. Sure, the Redskins have a track record of being mediocre since Snyder bought the team (I believe their average season is 7-9 over his tenure). However, teams can change in very short order. And, despite the apathy and mediocrity, this is still the clear cut #1 draw in the area. 

 

So, it would be surprising if politicians are truly making this decision based on Allen or lack of star power on the current roster. This team will be completely different personnel-wise before a stadium would even be built. By then, we could have 3 stars and plenty of buzz. 

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26 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Good summary @Skinsinparadise 

 

One thing that seems extremely short-sighted for a state/city is basing the benefits of building a stadium on the current state of a team. Sure, the Redskins have a track record of being mediocre since Snyder bought the team (I believe their average season is 7-9 over his tenure). However, teams can change in very short order. And, despite the apathy and mediocrity, this is still the clear cut #1 draw in the area. 

 

So, it would be surprising if politicians are truly making this decision based on Allen or lack of star power on the current roster. This team will be completely different personnel-wise before a stadium would even be built. By then, we could have 3 stars and plenty of buzz. 

The problem is there is nothing on Dan Snyder’s resume as an owner to suggest that the future for this organization is even moderately bright.  The current state of the franchise is that fan angst and apathy is at an all time high.  What is Dan’s plan to change that? Remove the outside voices instituting change and double down on the folks responsible for the angst and apathy.  

 

Politicians can’t play fortune teller for what this organization is going to be a decade from now, but they can look at Dan’s history and current events and easily come to the conclusion that getting into bed with him is a bad look for their careers.  As it has been for most everyone that does business with Snyder.

 

 

 

 

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Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The problem is there is nothing on Dan Snyder’s resume as an owner to suggest that the future for this organization is even moderately bright.  The current state of the franchise is that fan angst and apathy is at an all time high.  What is Dan’s plan to change that? Remove the outside voices instituting change and double down on the folks responsible for the angst and apathy.  

 

Politicians can’t play fortune teller for what this organization is going to be a decade from now, but they can look at Dan’s history and current events and easily come to the conclusion that getting into bed with him is a bad look for their careers.  As it has been for most everyone that does business with Snyder.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't disagree and I'm certainly not predicting a sudden turnaround. What I'm saying is more that a stadium decision is a 20-30 year investment. The Redskins have an 80-year history of being THE game in town. Of course trends matter...but I would think any wise politician isn't basing their decisions on the past 10 years or so. 

 

I think a much more critical factor that I would be considering is the overall decline of attendance and the overall increase in TV popularity. But that's league-wide. 

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Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

@TD_washingtonredskins That’s working under the assumption that politicians actually care about 30 years from now.  Their power and prestige is based upon right now and right now the Redskins are bad business and there is nothing to suggest that’s changing anytime in the near future.

 

Well, that's certainly a good point that I didn't consider. 

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2 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Good summary @Skinsinparadise 

 

One thing that seems extremely short-sighted for a state/city is basing the benefits of building a stadium on the current state of a team. Sure, the Redskins have a track record of being mediocre since Snyder bought the team (I believe their average season is 7-9 over his tenure). However, teams can change in very short order. And, despite the apathy and mediocrity, this is still the clear cut #1 draw in the area. 

 

So, it would be surprising if politicians are truly making this decision based on Allen or lack of star power on the current roster. This team will be completely different personnel-wise before a stadium would even be built. By then, we could have 3 stars and plenty of buzz. 

 

All true, it was part of Galdi's point this morning.  The problem is Dan has a long track record.  So the idea that a brighter future is ahead -- not sure if people believe that.  I agree with your point that anything is possible.

 

I think I got one of the most unique positions here about Dan.  And I am not saying I am right about him.  Got no idea.  All we can do is piece together crumbs and guess.  My take is I do think he genuinely wants to win.  I do think there are redeeming aspects of him as a person -- as I mentioned I've seen their charity efforts up close.   But I think he's a bad owner unless he changes one day.

 

I think he has 5 key problems that make him a bad owner.  Based on things I've read and heard people say who dealt with him.

 

A. Arrogance-lack of humility

B. Emotional and impatient and the culture behind the scenes is governed by fear -- and that often spurs people covering their backs and creating factions as opposed to people being on the same side to spur success.  (this guy Fitzgerald who used to work there and posts on twitter has elaborated on this a bunch)

C.  He does interfere at least sometimes and when he does his football instincts stink

D.  Where he isn't impatient its with people he's tight with.  He gives them a lot of rope.  First Vinny and now Bruce.

E.  His social life and supposed lack of social skills spills into his work 

 

Can he learn and improve?  Maybe.  I am pessimistic on that front.  Feels like things have to really crash for there to be a shot for him to wake up.  Some say he'd had previous wake up calls and he fell back to the same old same old.  But I am not so sure.  I can't recall a time with fan apathy like now -- decreasing attendance and TV ratings.  You had fan anger but apathy is worse.  And with the stadium looming it couldn't come at worse time.  Can a leopard change his spots?  Probably not.

 

This off season should be interesting.  Dan's long standing desire for excitement versus Bruce who IMO embraces boring.  Hyperbole on my end to make a  point but I do thing you got two contrasting styles.   And ironically, old school Dan's style might be better suited to juice up the fan base and maybe help the stadium chase -- even though it typically ends up fools gold.  So IMO its a wild time to be a Redskins fan. 

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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I have a hunch that our owner wants to spend money on getting a new stadium built and would not mind Allen going cheap on re-signing players.

His first priority is probably getting the shiny new stadium-- the latest toy to lure in new fans despite the poor product results on the field.  "Winning off the field" especially during the off-season continues to be where our owner is right now because he is focused on his big picture- multiple streams of revenue generation.  He can always blame Allen and/or Gruden for the product on the field in 2019 if we go 7-9 again or fail to make the playoffs.

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15 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

This off season should be interesting.  Dan's long standing desire for excitement versus Bruce who IMO embraces boring.  Hyperbole on my end to make a  point but I do thing you got two contrasting styles.   And ironically, old school Dan's style might be better suited to juice up the fan base and maybe help the stadium chase -- even though it typically ends up fools gold.  So IMO its a wild time to be a Redskins fan. 

 

I agree here. Dan has to be itching to create some major Buzz. However inept he may appear, it is starkly obvious that the franchise is dying on its arse.

 

I know you are fairly hot on Murray. Sure he'd create the hype, personally not convinced we are a realistic option for him. Can't see us getting high enough in the draft to get him. Can't see any reason why Murray would fancy coming here. The guy has basically got a number of front offices by the balls given the lure of baseball is never far away. I think he can almost hand select a far better option for himself that the Redskins. Any decent advisor will tell him that. Maybe Murray doesn't care that much where he plays, he's going to land a fully guaranteed 30mil plus contract. Who knows.

 

You do have to think that something 'wild' is just around the corner though. It may well just be another disaster, but I dare say it will be a high profile move in some capacity nonetheless. Perhaps Bruce thinks purging our rivals for Foles and Landon Collins is the answer.

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5 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

I agree here. Dan has to be itching to create some major Buzz. However inept he may appear, it is starkly obvious that the franchise is dying on its arse.

 

Yeah its sort of like someone who has cut out sugar for diet reasons.  But this is one of the rare times where you need a nice piece of pie.    Old school Dan I think might be the best medicine purely in the context of providing a splash for a fan base where too many have checked out.   Oddly enough, I think Bruce has hurt Dan's brand even more than Vinny did because the losing under Bruce has been a boring version of it.  Vinny's Redskins for its many faults would at least get some national attention and talk.  Bruce's Redskins is bad to so so and yawn.  Eventually, that takes a toll. 

 

And it doesn't take a toll with hardcore fans like us but the more casual ones.  

 

I like Jay, don't like Bruce but they both seem to have something in common right now and that is selling Dan that they are close. They've both flat out said it publicly multiple times so I can just imagine how heavy handed they are selling it behind the scenes.  And I don't blame either for selling it because they I presume would have no other choice but to sell it for job security reasons.

 

So I am in a weird place on this personally.  I don't care for the Dan interfering drill and don't trust his instincts.  Conversely, I think Jay and Bruce are full of crap with the team is close narrative albeit I don't blame them for selling it. 

 

I am guessing we got Dan behind the scenes being not sure what to do.  His instincts are probably to make a splash.  Bruce-Jay likely telling him he doesn't need to do so.     Lets take Kyler Murray for example, I can just imagine the discussion and thought on that dude.  

 

Something like:

 

A. Boy would he bring needed excitement and put the Redskins back on the map just like that

B. If they have to trade up big, can they afford another RG3 style trade mistake?

C.  Jay probably doesn't want him because he doesn't run spread style offenses purely out of the shot gun.

D.  All this good will from fans wishing the best for Alex Smith's recovery would that extend to excitement about a 2020 comeback (personally I think it doesn't but I could see Bruce selling that because it behooves him to get Dan to buy into what he did last year and also extend job security for himself further)

 

If Dan is involving himself in this decision, I'd guess it all must be driving him nuts -- so many possibilities and angles.

 

 

5 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

I know you are fairly hot on Murray. Sure he'd create the hype, personally not convinced we are a realistic option for him. Can't see us getting high enough in the draft to get him. Can't see any reason why Murray would fancy coming here. The guy has basically got a number of front offices by the balls given the lure of baseball is never far away. I think he can almost hand select a far better option for himself that the Redskins. Any decent advisor will tell him that. Maybe Murray doesn't care that much where he plays, he's going to land a fully guaranteed 30mil plus contract. Who knows.

 

I am hot for him but I wouldn't do some crazy haul for him.  Personally I am ok with waiting for the 2020 draft but not sure they can afford to do so as to avoid a bigger exodus of fans.   Per my point above, I think Bruce and Jay are likely telling Dan that he has no need to panic and stay the course.  But I think if season tickets sales sag, he might not trust their take.

 

The idea that Murray could dictate where he goes to was a popular supposition weeks back.  But he told Florio in an interview he flat out wouldn't do that and he will play for whatever team drafts him.

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1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am hot for him but I wouldn't do some crazy haul for him.  Personally I am ok with waiting for the 2020 draft but not sure they can afford to do so as to avoid a bigger exodus of fans.   Per my point above, I think Bruce and Jay are likely telling Dan that he has no need to panic and stay the course.  But I think if season tickets sales sag, he might not trust their take.

I wonder if Dan and Bruce feel the need to make a big splash in the draft to show that they really are masters at player acquisition.  And by "big splash", I mean trading away significant assets to move up in the first round to get their guy.  Or, less likely, they could trade down with a division rival, like they did when they conned Dallas into moving up to pick Demarcus Lawrence.  But, somehow, I just don't think they'll be comfortable just picking the BAP at 15.  No matter who they pick at 15, it will be either "I wonder what other teams know that we don't" or another lackluster pick.  Not likely to sell a lot of season tickets, especially if its a quarterback not named Murray.

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

...The idea that Murray could dictate where he goes to was a popular supposition weeks back.  But he told Florio in an interview he flat out wouldn't do that and he will play for whatever team drafts him.

Saying what he did is clearly in his best interest and it was the smart thing to do.  But, right now, he's probably pretty sure he's a top 5 pick.  Using last year's numbers, the difference between the contract given to the first pick ($32.6M over four years) and the 15th pick ($13.5M over four years) is pretty substantial.  Still way better than the MLB contract if you look at the first four years, but the salary at 15 is low enough to look at the longevity of baseball players and the longevity of Redskins quarterbacks.  It's all a guessing game, but I wouldn't put it in as a sure thing that he wouldn't jump back to baseball if he falls far enough.  We'll see if he shows up at spring training.  If he does, it's a pretty good sign that the A's are working him hard. 

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2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The idea that Murray could dictate where he goes to was a popular supposition weeks back.  But he told Florio in an interview he flat out wouldn't do that and he will play for whatever team drafts him.

 

That only reinforces my thoughts that he has a good idea he might not make it past #1.

 

good debate as ever by the way :cheers:

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