The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[Dissident2]

41 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

I think you're missing the point. What becomes exhaustive is that the hatred for Dan/Bruce is so great that everything is looked at through that lens. It makes conversation and debating the team we all love much less enjoyable when nothing and I repeat nothing is never met without tremendous negativity and skepticism.

 

There's some truth in this, but also a lot of your own "missing the point." 

 

The reasons for all the negativity should be pretty apparent, and anyone can do their own mental checklist: the overall record of the last 20 years, the embarrassments on and off the field, etc., etc. The deterioration of the fan base is not some media-driven mirage. We all saw the stands this year. Not even close to a sellout for the HOME OPENER with the team at 1-0!! And then the home-closer ... an absolute disgrace of epic proportions and as clear an indicator as any as to how far this franchise has fallen based on what amounts to decades of organizational abuse. 

 

The overall negativity persists because those that are still here want MEANINGFUL moves to happen, moves that turn the above scenarios around. They just want to be able to be proud of their team again. People are supposed to go out of their way praising Bruce because this douchebag's girlfriend dropped charges of domestic assault? I'm on record as saying we need to let the legal process play out before going all "mob mentality" on the guy, and now that charges have been dropped, I'm open to seeing what kind of person/player he can be. 

 

But when, as a fan, you're so consumed with things that are so much more important to the overall wellbeing of a team that means so much to you, and you feel like the situation is hopeless with the current status quo, it shouldn't be a surprise when some of these "tiny victories" aren't met with much enthusiasm. Start showing that meaningful change is happening, and you'll start to see more fans who are willing to praise the smaller moves. Until that happens, complaining about it is like shaking your fist at the weather. 

 

It's like your girlfriend who cheats on you getting mad because you didn't compliment her hair. "Yeah, it looks nice. But YOU CHEATED ON ME, you skank!" 

 

 

 

 

[superozman]

Hoping this post doesn't get lost in the shuffle, and i'm not doing something someone already has done.  My question is, what EXACTLY has Bruce done to make you upset?  For me, it's the below:

 

1.  We are constantly top 5, if not THE HIGHEST cost for a gameday experience.  And with the highest cost, we have a team that hasn't done anything under the new ownership who made us the highest cost for gameday experience.  While Bruce doesn't oversee the business side, i still hold him a bit responsible.

1a.  My biggest gripe is parking.  All cash lots aren't responsibility of the team?  So do you not want Redskins fans to come to the game without having to do a crap ton of research and then just headed to the game not sure how much they will be charged to park, and how far away they will be?  Be more supportive.

2.  He hasn't made himself available to the media in over 3 years.  maybe 4?  it's been a while.  Why not show yourself, be accountable, be as transparent as you can.  

2a.  Gruden has been the person who has had to deal with the result of this.  He's the one that has to go to the podium and field the questions on people like Rueben Foster, Mason Foster, our training staff and improvements, etc.

3.  The Kirk Cousins statement.  no i don't consider that to shorten #2, he read a pre-written statement and took no questions.  I liked transparency, but i disliked the fact that it wasn't done for transparency, it was done to get in front of them not signing Cousins long term.  If it was for transparency, we would have had more statements for other situations.

 

[Chump Bailey]

45 minutes ago, Dissident2 said:

The reasons for all the negativity should be pretty apparent

 

 

Apparently, not

 

To this poster, Dan and Bruce are just unlikeable, mean-spirited assholes with zero tact or humility. I think by in large they've handled a lot of things rather poorly and it will take herculean efforts for me to change my feelings about both. At the same time, I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet and still remain hopeful Dan will finally right the ship because I do long to root for my Washington Redskins. I'm in the Nashville area and was wearing my Redskins starter jacket standing in a checkout line and had a guy come up to me and say he feels my pain and was happy to see a fellow fan sporting the colors - made me feel good. Anyway, a name change would likely do it though as others have stated. That's the back-breaker and hopefully, it won't come to that. 

[Peregrine]

Its amazing, all of the Allen family that had their tail between their legs the entirety of this year as finally even they couldnt support the disaster he has created, all of the sudden showed up out of the woodworks to support a psycho due to his DV charges being dropped for the 2nd time in a year.  They talk about how "reactionary" this fanbase is but then commit the same crime ignoring all of the past issues this season, and the other 9 before it, because of one piece of news that may literally mean nothing in whether Foster even plays for us.

 

And anyone pretending that the lack of discussion possible on this franchise is the fault of the "stupid" fans, is absolutely deluded, because the fans for some love of masochism have stuck with them through so much, and made Dan Synder and Bruce Allen rich while they lied to them, cheated them, and abused them.  Thats been the "stupid" part of the fans.  The fact that fans now have become wise makes those still willing to make excuses for this **** show as the "stupid" ones unable to really discuss whats been going on for 20 years.

[FrFan]

1 hour ago, Chump Bailey said:

 I think by in large they've handled a lot of things rather poorly and it will take herculean efforts for me to change my feelings about both. At the same time, I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet and still remain hopeful Dan will finally right the ship because I do long to root for my Washington Redskins.

I believe the only way is for him to go away, but I've been running out of hope 😕

 

[kleese]

37 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Its amazing, all of the Allen family that had their tail between their legs the entirety of this year as finally even they couldnt support the disaster he has created, all of the sudden showed up out of the woodworks to support a psycho due to his DV charges being dropped for the 2nd time in a year.  They talk about how "reactionary" this fanbase is but then commit the same crime ignoring all of the past issues this season, and the other 9 before it, because of one piece of news that may literally mean nothing in whether Foster even plays for us.

 

And anyone pretending that the lack of discussion possible on this franchise is the fault of the "stupid" fans, is absolutely deluded, because the fans for some love of masochism have stuck with them through so much, and made Dan Synder and Bruce Allen rich while they lied to them, cheated them, and abused them.  Thats been the "stupid" part of the fans.  The fact that fans now have become wise makes those still willing to make excuses for this **** show as the "stupid" ones unable to really discuss whats been going on for 20 years.

 

The only thing I take issue with is the “cheated them, lied to them, abused them” part. I think that’s off-base. I don’t think Dan Snyder owes me jack squat— and I’ve been a die hard since the early 80’s. This is a simple business transaction: he produces a product and as a consumer I have a choice to partake or pass. I don’t think he ever “duped” me or tricked me into buying his product. It’s a conscious choice I make to stick around. I don’t do it because I’m somehow “fooled” by their shenanigans. I am well aware of the record, how they operate, and how they are viewed. Obviously a lot of fans have chosen to bail. Can’t say I blame them. I choose to stay because I still enjoy it overall. It’s a choice. This isn’t an abusive relationship because I’m not being held hostage. The door is right there. Some choose to use it. Some don’t. Those of us that stay really can’t come back and say we didn’t know what was coming. 

[HardcoreZorn]

1 hour ago, Dissident2 said:

 

There's some truth in this, but also a lot of your own "missing the point." 

 

The reasons for all the negativity should be pretty apparent, and anyone can do their own mental checklist: the overall record of the last 20 years, the embarrassments on and off the field, etc., etc. The deterioration of the fan base is not some media-driven mirage. We all saw the stands this year. Not even close to a sellout for the HOME OPENER with the team at 1-0!! And then the home-closer ... an absolute disgrace of epic proportions and as clear an indicator as any as to how far this franchise has fallen based on what amounts to decades of organizational abuse. 

 

The overall negativity persists because those that are still here want MEANINGFUL moves to happen, moves that turn the above scenarios around. They just want to be able to be proud of their team again. People are supposed to go out of their way praising Bruce because this douchebag's girlfriend dropped charges of domestic assault? I'm on record as saying we need to let the legal process play out before going all "mob mentality" on the guy, and now that charges have been dropped, I'm open to seeing what kind of person/player he can be. 

 

But when, as a fan, you're so consumed with things that are so much more important to the overall wellbeing of a team that means so much to you, and you feel like the situation is hopeless with the current status quo, it shouldn't be a surprise when some of these "tiny victories" aren't met with much enthusiasm. Start showing that meaningful change is happening, and you'll start to see more fans who are willing to praise the smaller moves. Until that happens, complaining about it is like shaking your fist at the weather. 

 

It's like your girlfriend who cheats on you getting mad because you didn't compliment her hair. "Yeah, it looks nice. But YOU CHEATED ON ME, you skank!" 

 

 

 

 

The reasons for negativity are apparent. I've laid them out numerous times on here, I'm not stupid nor blind.

 

And I get you would like meaningful moves to happen, as would I. Also talked about some of those on here. But hate to say it, last time there was a fan outcry it was because we didn't build through the draft while trading picks for aging worthless vets, signed a boatload of overrated players who accomplished things elsewhere in favor of signing our own, etc. There were articles upon articles about emulating the patriots, steelers, ravens, etc. Do you know who that fan outcry brought us? Bruce Allen. Be careful what you wish for.

 

And while I'm headed full steam down the Bruce Allen Lover Express Lane, allow me to back up a little. It's not about celebrating tiny victories. It's not about shoving this down haters' throats and saying "see I told you Bruce is smart." You're going to waste your time with that and it's why a lot of times I simply don't reply to certain posts anymore. It's not worth engaging on it.

 

It's about illustrating the toxicity of the fan base. The relentless negativity that permeates throughout the media, the organization, and ultimately the players that go to battle for us on sunday. So while everyone can be proud they are no longer putting money in Danny's pockets anymore and won't show up until Bruce is gone or whatever, those same fans inadvertently create an adverse atmosphere for the team they "love." Why do you think Foster and Norman said those things? Why do you think Jay and/or the organization didn't punish them or call them out publicly? It's because they all feel the same way, and that's this fan base ****ing hates them.

 

Not everything the team does is wrong, not even close. It's why we now seem to be stuck in mediocrity, which in theory signals an even split of good and poor decisions. There were a few people including myself who understood the logic behind the move, before it came out he was cleared. They understood the circumstances surrounding the previous allegations, the circumstances surrounding the Alex situation and the need to add cheap top talent, and that the reward here far outweighed the risk. The overwhelming majority though took it as another opportunity to berate the team, before the truth actually came out. So if you want to cling to the belief I'm begging for people to congratulate the FO on a tiny victory and forget all past mishaps, be my guest. I'm not. Maybe just maybe exercise a little more restraint before joining the masses and crapping all over every move we make. And no, saying things like "good trade for Haha" followed by 750 posts about the ineptness of the franchise doesn't really indicate level-headed or rational feelings toward the team.

 

 

[Bang]

2 hours ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

 

Yeah but no one else did make the move. 

 

 

Unfortunately Bang, that's exactly what was being said. 

 

When you claim a player off waivers, it is a repudiation of the base reason why that player is being released in the first place.

Ok, right? Follow me?

 

Teams release players all the time, some because of injury, some because of age, some because the level of play has declined, some times because of money ... or usually some combination of all those things together, right? 

 

Sometimes players are released because of run-ins with the law.

 

For a team to claim a guy with a nagging injury, career long bursitis ... whatever, then that claiming team is REFUTING the reason why the parent team is jettisoning said player. 

 

Here, San Fran was absolutely clear why they were releasing Foster. It wasn't age, it wasn't play, it wasn't money. 

 

The washington organization claiming Foster was a repudiation of the VERY reason why Foster was released. And we all know what that reason was. Whether the reason was true or not was irrelevant then and is now irrelevant with charges going away. 

 

The relevant point was that washington said, effectively by way of claiming rights on waivers, "the reason why Foster was released by SF (multiple run-ins with the law / DV) isn't offputting enough, isn't distasteful enough to us, compared to the possible upside and the talent benefit (we) washington could get from it." 

 

They said to the whole league and the nation watching that nothing is sacred. The other adults in the NFL understood they could have done the same thing, but passed. Probably because they know, as should anyone else, that a LB is not the single, preeminent player which will lead you to a SuperBowl. So therefore, despite all the reasons why said player has plus football ability, that ability is not transcendent enough for an NFL team, not like that of a franchise QB, in order to ignore the baggage. 

 

Short of it being Brady, Rodgers, Rothsberger ... then the idea that the other teams would have, could have claimed Foster ... well, just look at K. Hunt as another topical example. No one claimed him. 

 

That's exactly what everyone is supposed to do. That's what the adults do.  

 

 

Yeah, i guess.

As an adult, i don't look to  my football team to be any sort of moral guidepost. 

And what is "said" is a narrative set by those who want to assign all sorts of extra meaning to the signing of a football player to play football if he passes a very strict muster.

I am not sure I fit with this new way of thinking. i watch the football team because i like to watch football and i like this team. And i like this team because of past glories (with men who we can bet had plenty of skeletons of their own, but due to the lack of transparency in the day didn't see the light. ) I like this team due to always having liked this team from childhood on up. 

I cheer as i watch these men destroy themselves. And i long ago had to come to grips with the fact that is exactly what i am doing,, i am aiding in these men damaging themselves often beyond repair, and shortening their lives.  Morality is indeed a sliding scale. We demand clean guys to destroy themselves for our amusement.

Obviously rapists and murderers need not apply,, but if there is one thing I know,, domestics are a situation that rarely is what it appears. 
But as reactionaries do, and our fan base now is, we never worry about the other shoe to drop and find out anything. 
Just scream.

I am hoping Goodell clears foster and he goes on to ave a good productive career as a Redskins LB. Whether or not it lands us on the cover of Squeaky Clean magazine is none of my concern.

 

~Bang

 

 

[Dissident2]

7 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

But hate to say it, last time there was a fan outcry it was because we didn't build through the draft while trading picks for aging worthless vets, signed a boatload of overrated players who accomplished things elsewhere in favor of signing our own, etc. There were articles upon articles about emulating the patriots, steelers, ravens, etc. Do you know who that fan outcry brought us? Bruce Allen. Be careful what you wish for.

 

Actually, the last time there was a fan outcry was after the 2014 season. That got us Scot McCloughan, a flawed upgrade to Allen, evidenced (imo) by a division title the next year and first playoff appearance in 8 years. They were on the right track. Then they blew it all up and reverted back to the old ways of failure and ineptitude. 

 

10 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

It's about illustrating the toxicity of the fan base.

 

The toxicity to be concerned with is at the heart of the organization, not the fan base. The fan base is malleable depending on what the FO does and what the team does. The FO does not seem to have that character trait. 

 

11 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

It's because they all feel the same way, and that's this fan base ****ing hates them.

 

If they're that stupid to feel that way with absolutely no context or understanding of the team's now long history that's got us here, then they can go **** themselves. No one hates the players. I get why there's going to be a culture shock seeing empty stands and booing fans if you're new here ... but if you're not smart enough to ask yourself why that is and do what you can to fix it, then you're an imbecile. 

 

13 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

It's why we now seem to be stuck in mediocrity,

 

People keep using that word, and I don't get it at all. We are not even close to mediocrity. Especially when you consider everything we saw this year. It goes way beyond the record on the field. Without AP this season, we'd probably be 3-13. 

 

15 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

750 posts about the ineptness of the franchise doesn't really indicate level-headed or rational feelings toward the team.

 

I think it does - or CAN - because many more people now fully realize how futile ANYTHING we do is going to be until the current structure drastically changes. That should be the only focus. 

 

Again, it's like painting your house when it's crumbling at the foundation. FIX THE FOUNDATION FIRST, then we can feel comfortable enough to appreciate the paint job. 

 

People act like there's something "special" about this fan base and its current negativity, when it's just obvious human nature. Kick someone in the balls over and over and over and over again, and that person is going to eventually be full of understandable anger toward you. And they may not be in a mood to thank you when you randomly toss 'em a quarter for their troubles. In fact, they may still think you're a scumbag. 

[Skinsinparadise]

The argument that its those pesky critics among the fan base and the media -- they are the problem -- they are the toxic ones and need to chill.....that narrative according to some of the people who cover the team, that's what Bruce and Dan live and die with.   

 

It's those darn fans.  It's the media.  They are all wrong.  Bruce and Dan are right.  And the 5% or so of the fans (supposedly they tell themselves its a much larger group than that) are the ones who get it and represent the true fan base.  According to some who cover the team its this narrative they hang on to and its partly why Cerrato lasted as long as he did and Bruce is lasting long, too. 

 

To each their own but to Czaban's point -- I think the more toxic position is having the FO's back and or back off if the goal is real change.   Not that they are per se listening to the fans complaints -- you got me one way or another.  But as I've said from having jobs where communication like this comes into the office -- it often does get noticed -- so why not go for it.   As for this forum and thread, I doubt anyone at Redskins Park reads it.  But the twitter stuff where fans are bringing it directly to the team and the phone calls to Redskins Park -- clearly its getting some attention for what its worth if anything.

 

 

 

[HardcoreZorn]

55 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

It's those darn fans.  It's the media.  They are all wrong.  Bruce and Dan are right. 

 

Who said this?

[wit33]

Percentage of blame of last 10 years: 

 

No elite QB

 

or 

 

No elite FO 

[Skinsinparadise]

36 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

Who said this?

 

Multiple people said different variations of this, at this point tough to recall the differences of each narrative since they blend in so much from person to person.   But off the top of my head, Chris Russell is hot on the Bruce-Dan are arrogant as heck and think they are smarter than everyone else -- and they are right and the fans and media who are carping are wrong.  Mike Jones echoes the same point more or less.

 

Finlay-Sheehan said on one of Sheehan's podcasts that Bruce-Dan are often isolated because they attend harvest fest type of events, and charity ones where they are surrounded by fans and people who think they can do no wrong.  And both claim they don't think in particular Dan knew the extent of fan discontent -- until perhaps recently because he's out of touch

 

One of these people (forgot which one, I think it was Sheehan though) went to town big time on the idea that Dan-Bruce think people who have their back are the majority of fans and the ones complaining are the minority.

 

Keim said some in the FO are aware of the fan's discontent but they are confused by it because it doesn't make sense to them. 

 

Brewer said he hears Dan is detached from fans and has a really tight circle of mostly Bruce and some Jay.   Liz Clark said something similar today that Dan and Bruce mostly hang with each other and Dan doesn't have a big circle, his main circle is Bruce.  Clark added to the Bruce social crutch argument saying Dan doesn't so well socially and leans on Bruce on that front especially at owners meetings. 

 

Of all the narratives, the most muddled one for me to get a handle on it is does Dan know the extent of fan discontent or not.   Seems like there is a competing narratives on that point depending on who is talking about it.  Ditto Bruce on same subject. 

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Percentage of blame of last 10 years: 

 

No elite QB

 

or 

 

No elite FO 

 

This is the first time I've ever before a season I wanted a tank year.  Though its early so maybe I change my mind.  But I think part of the bad luck of the Dan era is they never really crash to have a strong shot at a franchise QB.  They have had plenty of bad seasons -- they do bad very well. Lately, they do mediocre well.  But they haven't been the worst in a season.    If we are going Alabama crazy as it, why not go full bore crazy and get Tua.  😀

 

I think you need the #1 pick or #2 to do it in 2020.  Do they have it in them to be that bad -- alas, I think Dan does just enough when they go bad to go 6-10, 5-11, etc versus 3-13.   But maybe it happens this time because the QB position is such a mess, cap situation isn't great -- maybe it all comes together. 

 

I think Dan and Bruce are incompetent and don't know how to build a winning culture in that building.   Kyle's college scouting helps elevate the operation IMO to so so.   I don't think this organization will ever have a shot at the promised land because too much weighs it down.  I think a franchise QB is the one shot to maybe overcome it.  So I don't look at the franchise QB issue as an excuse for them considering all the mistakes they've made over the years which are comically inept in their search for a good QB.   But I do look at landing a franchise QB as the best shot to erase all the other mistakes and nonsense that they do.

 

[NewCliche21]

7 hours ago, Bang said:

Almost any other team makes this move on Foster and it's 'shrewd'.

We do  it and we condone domestic abuse.

everything is a referendum on social issues, and it's par for the course from this reactionary fan base.

Why are you watching the game? For moral guidance?

 

We claimed him, and he hasn't even been allowed to practice with the team. Not allowed in the locker room. Not allowed to be a part of the team in any way except where his rights lie.  And now the police have dropped charges. So we know this means nothing to the NFL and now he has to clear THEIR hurdles,  and if he does then we've grabbed a potentially decent player on the cheap. if he doesn't, he's gone without ever having worn the uniform.

And yet the Redskns organization condones domestic abuse.

And people are all concerned about the "PR hit" that THEY caused with the reactionary hysterics.

 

Oh Jesus, get off your high moral anti-horse.  Some of us have had this view for every team for as long as we've followed the sport.  Hardy?  Gallette?  Rice?  Hunt?  Roethlisberger?  Vick?  Winston?  Elliott?  Bryant?  And so on?

 

This isn't how this works psychologically, socially, or legally.  Don't make these sweeping generalizations when you don't have your facts straight.  Are some people being flavor-of-the-month social justice warriors?  Sure.  Not all of us.

[LetThePointsSoar]

Am I the only one checking this thread every day just to hope for a shred of news that we finally started house cleaning? 

[SkinsFTW]

Dan has exactly the type of discombobulated, no fault, set-up he has always preferred. Why would there be a house cleaning? 

 

He fooled some of you into believing that "all he wants to do is win" but given a choice of control my way, vs likely winning much more, he chose Dan Snyder's Fantasy Football. It's just not as fun when somebody else is making all the decisions and he said that himself.

 

He's making money anyway no matter what we think about his incompetence and if he gets a stadium then forget about anything ever changing because then he'll not only have a monopoly over the dwindling fanbase but he'll own some politicians and their cities money as well.

 

Prepare for more marketing from Dan and Bruce but don't ever expect any sound football decisions strung together in a coherent fashion. The Buffoonery will rule the day. Just like it always has.

[Redskin4ever]

6 hours ago, kleese said:

 

The only thing I take issue with is the “cheated them, lied to them, abused them” part. I think that’s off-base. I don’t think Dan Snyder owes me jack squat— and I’ve been a die hard since the early 80’s. This is a simple business transaction: he produces a product and as a consumer I have a choice to partake or pass. I don’t think he ever “duped” me or tricked me into buying his product. It’s a conscious choice I make to stick around. I don’t do it because I’m somehow “fooled” by their shenanigans. I am well aware of the record, how they operate, and how they are viewed. Obviously a lot of fans have chosen to bail. Can’t say I blame them. I choose to stay because I still enjoy it overall. It’s a choice. This isn’t an abusive relationship because I’m not being held hostage. The door is right there. Some choose to use it. Some don’t. Those of us that stay really can’t come back and say we didn’t know what was coming. 

 

Excellent post. We all have our reasons to watch or not watch. We all make that decision. The idea that we've been forced or tricked into watching isn't true. The team is what it is. The front office sucks. I get it. It probably won't change for a while. But I watch the games because you never know what will happen. I can laugh at other teams when the Redskins beat them, because well what else do we have since we know mediocrity is the best they seem to do. I go to games because I have fun and love attending sports in person. Like you, it's a choice I make and we all make. I'd love for Allen to get fired and someone with some sense to be hired. It would give me some hope. But if they don't, my life won't be ruined. I'll just know my favorite football team will be shooting for another season of mediocrity. 

[RWJ]

1 hour ago, LetThePointsSoar said:

Am I the only one checking this thread every day just to hope for a shred of news that we finally started house cleaning? 

Nope, I'm another and I'm sure there are many others.  

[Renegade7]

5 hours ago, wit33 said:

Percentage of blame of last 10 years: 

 

No elite QB

 

or 

 

No elite FO 

Blame for what. us losing? 50-50, both can hide either, we see it all the time.  Trading up for a franchise QB was the right move, picking Griffin was not.  It is 100% the fault of the front office this losing off the field crap, those can be mutually exclusive.

3 hours ago, LetThePointsSoar said:

Am I the only one checking this thread every day just to hope for a shred of news that we finally started house cleaning? 

 

I was in here clicking F5 like the first day of free agency on Monday, I've calmed down since.

[wit33]

8 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

This is the first time I've ever before a season I wanted a tank year.  Though its early so maybe I change my mind.  But I think part of the bad luck of the Dan era is they never really crash to have a strong shot at a franchise QB.  They have had plenty of bad seasons -- they do bad very well. Lately, they do mediocre well.  But they haven't been the worst in a season.    If we are going Alabama crazy as it, why not go full bore crazy and get Tua.  😀

 

I can’t get with the tanking idea lol. As you know, the NFL is such a year to year league and so much value exists for me personally in watching bonus Skins football, no matter how I get it. 

 

Have NFL teams intentionally went into a season with idea of tanking? Can’t think of one on my own. Some say the Colts did, but Manning going down with a season ending injury wasn’t a plan. 

 

The Colts from outside look to be a below average run franchise, but continue to enjoy great success when Luck is healthy. 

 

[FrFan]

14 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

It's about illustrating the toxicity of the fan base.

You lost me right there.

The only toxicity comes from Snyder and his minion BA, the fans abide by Newton's third law and we can't blame them imo.

Bruce is that you ?

[FrFan]

3 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Have NFL teams intentionally went into a season with idea of tanking? Can’t think of one on my own. Some say the Colts did, but Manning going down with a season ending injury wasn’t a plan.

 

As a consequence the plan was to tank aka "to suck for Luck".

We’ve entered the age of tanking in the NFL

" It’s gotten to the point where teams aren’t even waiting for the season to start before they decide to tank."

[Bang]

11 hours ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

Oh Jesus, get off your high moral anti-horse.  Some of us have had this view for every team for as long as we've followed the sport.  Hardy?  Gallette?  Rice?  Hunt?  Roethlisberger?  Vick?  Winston?  Elliott?  Bryant?  And so on?

 

This isn't how this works psychologically, socially, or legally.  Don't make these sweeping generalizations when you don't have your facts straight.  Are some people being flavor-of-the-month social justice warriors?  Sure.  Not all of us.

Sorry, it's hard to keep track of individuals.
Typically when speaking about any group as large as the fan base, its understood that it can't mean 100% everyone, there will inevitably be some generalization. Overall this fan base is reactionary, overwhelmingly negative and rarely pauses to breathe between screaming about the latest outrage, and the last outrage. Every incident raises the same level of vitriol. 
Folks can hold all the morals they want, but don't expect me to always agree with their reasoning especially after new information comes to light,, which it often does.

My morality is simple when it comes to this. If he fails to pass muster, he's cut with our hands squeaky clean. If he passes, we got a new linebacker.
Everything is a morality play these days for so many people, and almost always has to do with celebrities. Besides, i've never thought the internet version of mob justice is a good idea. Judgments rendered instantly and mercilessly and often followed through enough to wreck a person. Accusations are all mot need these days for thousands upon thousands of people to convict instantly and then work together to ruin a person.. rightly or wrongly... often for no other reason than the "thumbs up" support they get from total strangers.

Each case is individual. In many of those names above, there were convictions, or other damning evidence..  in this case it's pretty muddy, and even the most trigger happy SJW has to see that. 

 

My main point is this.

We can be angry and we can see problems and we can demand fixes and we can be completely right in all of it. But we also have to think first, and for many they are deep enough into the constant rage that they no longer are willing.

 

AND, i would also like to say that when i talk about the "fan base" it is huge, and this group of us here is a small sliver. When i talk about the overall base,,  the few dozen here that discuss are not included in much of the assessment. One reason i've been here 15 years is because of the level of discussion here among the regulars. I don't post very much in the Stadium. Even if we disagree, there is reasoning behind it which is discussed.. the problem i have with the overall base is that is not true for most. 

 

On a side note.. Michael Vick.. he did terrible things. He was convicted, went to prison. Now he truly seems to be reformed. He seemed to be a different person when he came out. Just as a general question, does this count for nothing? He can never erase what he did.. but can he pay his debt?

 

~Bang

 

[bakedtater1]

9 hours ago, LetThePointsSoar said:

Am I the only one checking this thread every day just to hope for a shred of news that we finally started house cleaning? 

No your not... I've got it worse than you, I'm here every hour on the hour