The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

I’ve said this many times before, just because they ended up with a qualified hire like Jay doesn’t mean their process in hiring him was right. And there’s enough evidence out there to suggest he was the hire from the start and it was more about Bruce getting someone he’s comfortable with than anything else. That is okay to want, but it should be a secondary want, not a priority. 

 

Same goes for Scot. If the reason they brought him in was because AJ Smith was against RG3 and Dan wasn’t having that, well, suffice to say that isn’t a sound hiring process being implemented. That sounds like they’re choosing based off of who is more likely to acquiesce to Dan versus who is most qualified. Even if it had worked out, that’d just mean they got lucky as opposed to being smart or operating properly. 

 

Everytime we get bits of info regarding their process a little part of me dies inside. It’s just almost always off and unsound philosophically. It’s no wonder there is a consistent flow of embarrassing episodes as a result of that.

 

That’s why I absolutely LOVED hearing about how Crowder was drafted and developed. That entire process was a thing of beauty. That right there is an organization that is soundly structured benefiting everyone in the process, from top to bottom. That is how you provide a support structure that enables everyone within it and elevates them versus provides for them obstacles and limits them.

 

Unfortunately, that kind of process seems to be the exception, not the rule. And so here we are. :/ 

 

I agree.  Whether they are mediocre or less than that -- to me my bottom line is I'd like to see their process changed.   The building seems impinged by politics, nepotism, impatience and fear.  And I'd bet there is an element of that in other organizations but I'd wager a bet that the Redskins under Dan's leadership is one of the worst on these counts.

 

For most of Dan's tenure the team has been bottom rung of the league bad.  That's a statistical fact.  In the last three years we've found our way to mediocrity -- mostly I believe on the backs of Jay and the QBs.  Can they figure out the rest of the roster?  You got me.  That remains to be seen. I hope so.  And I really don't have a feel for it one way or another.  

 

My gut is they have some good college scouts, Kyle Smith might be a find.   I think Doug is mostly but not always just a figurehead.  Bruce to me isn't hot.  Schaffer has a good reputation.   Dan not so much.  So for me its sort of a weird feeling about the FO where for me the best people are the ones who aren't in charge.  The problem for me with the front office structure under Dan is it almost always feel a bit weird and off.  Canning John Scheider to bring back Vinny.  The Vinny-Gibbs-Dan trifecta decision making arm.  Then Gibbs leaves and for some reason Vinny earned the full reigns and was saying publicly he gave Zorn a playoff roster.  Shanny being hired to run personnel along with the head coaching job where the people in Denver said he was a good coach but not GM.  The Scot hire and then learning he wasn't truly in charge.  Bruce officially taking back the reigns and supposedly elevating Doug.  

 

I'd like a scenario which doesn't feel weird and off.  That's not me saying they make all their decisions in the wrong way and they are total boobs.  But I don't really have the confidence that they can compete with the better organizations until they get "normal".

 

 

[Burgold]

37 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

.  Then Gibbs leaves and for some reason Vinny earned the full reigns and was saying publicly he gave Zorn a playoff roster. 

 

 

I don't really believe what I'm going to argue, but I can sort of understand it.

 

When Gibbs left the Redskins had made the playoffs in 2 out of four years. We were feeling pretty good. Mind you, we were also really dubious about the Zorn hire. That said, the D was statistically tough even if game-weak and theO had some nice pieces with Cooley, Moss, and Portis. The line with Samuels wasn't that bad either. So, the feeling that the Redskins had a playoff roster wasn't all that out of bounds. After all, we were in the playoffs in the pretty recent past and Zorn kind of proved we were a playoff quality team by starting out 6-2. The big problem wasn't talent, but that after the first eight games the NFL figured out Zorn's Plan A, nullified it, and Jim could never come up with a counter punch. Hence, 6-2 fell to 8-8 and subsequently 4-12. Okay, talent was a problem too... more specifically the lack of talent among our depth. Vinny's first strings usually did have talent. There was just no one worth a damn after that.

 

But the fact that the Redskins started off 6-2 with Jim Zorn's behind the steering wheel is a testament to what Joe Gibbs left the team in terms of resilience, drive and character... and maybe talent. So, I can understand how those at Redskins Park having experienced some recent playoff history and then seeing Zorn just fall apart think... there was talent, but that Zorn was just a monumentally dumb hire of a guy who received a double promotion and was out of his depth (remember, Zorn had never been a coordinator before).

[Reaper Skins]

If a guy voluntarily sticks his hand in the deep fryer, I'm not going to give him credit for how well he bandages himself up afterwards. 

 

I'm gonna be critical of his decision making skills and question why he made such a dumb move in the first place.

 

Especially when it was entirely avoidable, and he made such a huge deal of telling the fanbase "relax, just trust me, it's really easy to avoid sticking your hand in the deep fryer"

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

14 hours ago, Burgold said:

I don't really believe what I'm going to argue, but I can sort of understand it.

 

When Gibbs left the Redskins had made the playoffs in 2 out of four years. We were feeling pretty good. Mind you, we were also really dubious about the Zorn hire. That said, the D was statistically tough even if game-weak and theO had some nice pieces with Cooley, Moss, and Portis. The line with Samuels wasn't that bad either. So, the feeling that the Redskins had a playoff roster wasn't all that out of bounds. After all, we were in the playoffs in the pretty recent past and Zorn kind of proved we were a playoff quality team by starting out 6-2. The big problem wasn't talent, but that after the first eight games the NFL figured out Zorn's Plan A, nullified it, and Jim could never come up with a counter punch. Hence, 6-2 fell to 8-8 and subsequently 4-12. Okay, talent was a problem too... more specifically the lack of talent among our depth. Vinny's first strings usually did have talent. There was just no one worth a damn after that.

 

But the fact that the Redskins started off 6-2 with Jim Zorn's behind the steering wheel is a testament to what Joe Gibbs left the team in terms of resilience, drive and character... and maybe talent. So, I can understand how those at Redskins Park having experienced some recent playoff history and then seeing Zorn just fall apart think... there was talent, but that Zorn was just a monumentally dumb hire of a guy who received a double promotion and was out of his depth (remember, Zorn had never been a coordinator before).

 

The team was probably good enough for one or two more playoff runs with very good coaching. But, where the cupboard was bare was with depth (as you mention) and the ability to add talent (traded draft picks and lack of cap space). 

 

Gibbs kind of went all in with a win-now mentality when he was here (2nd and 3rd round picks for Duckett when CP was maybe out 2-3 weeks????). 

[Burgold]

28 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

The team was probably good enough for one or two more playoff runs with very good coaching. But, where the cupboard was bare was with depth (as you mention) and the ability to add talent (traded draft picks and lack of cap space). 

 

Gibbs kind of went all in with a win-now mentality when he was here (2nd and 3rd round picks for Duckett when CP was maybe out 2-3 weeks????). 

Yeah. It’s weird. Usually, I make the lack of talent argument for Gibbs 2. Him making the playoffs 2/4 years with a Vinny built team shows us just how good he was. It might even have hinted at what he could have pulled off with a scab team for 16 games. 

 

That said, the argument I made above feels honest too. 

 

I think we really do see the opposite ends with Vinny and Bruce. Under Vinny, we had the stars, but not enough blue collar or depth. Under Bruce, we’ve developed pretty good depth, but are lacking stars. 

[Thinking Skins]

Here's my question in all of this goings on.

(1) Danny wanted Bruce to hire a personnel guy

(2) Danny didn't like Smith because Smith didn't like Griffin

(3) Bruce hires Scot

(4) Scot later says he prefers Cousins over Griffin

(5) Bruce/Dan fire Scot

(6) K. Smith (Smith's son) is promoted.

 

There's a lot more that went on, but these are the basic points that I care about. I can add as an addendum that we've had good guys on our staff before that were highly regarded in the league (Schneider in 2001).

 

So without getting into the blame game, is this Danny's growth? Is he / Bruce viewing Smith as the personnel guy that was necessary in 2014? And if/when Bruce is fired, what is the probability that Smith is the one that gets promoted instead of Schaffer? And what I really wonder, (a) how much power does Smith have right now, particularly in those meetings (b) what happens when there's a power struggle between Schaffer and Smith (c) what happens when there's a power struggle between Gruden and Smith (d) if we have another good draft, especially with lower round picks and UDFAs and guys off the street in season, say with a 10 win season, does that make Simth's opinion stronger, or does that go to Bruce/Schaffer/Gruden and others? (e) What's that possibility that Smith is poached for a GM job somewhere else?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

Yeah. It’s weird. Usually, I make the lack of talent argument for Gibbs 2. Him making the playoffs 2/4 years with a Vinny built team shows us just how good he was. It might even have hinted at what he could have pulled off with a scab team for 16 games. 

 

That said, the argument I made above feels honest too. 

 

I think we really do see the opposite ends with Vinny and Bruce. Under Vinny, we had the stars, but not enough blue collar or depth. Under Bruce, we’ve developed pretty good depth, but are lacking stars. 

Yep - the VinnySkins would have crumbled to 4-12 with the injuries we suffered last year. Instead, we were a couple winnable games from .500 despite being decimated. That does demonstrate depth! 

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[Peregrine]

On 4/6/2018 at 4:00 PM, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Perhaps you ignore him, but over the past year and change he’s been out in front of stuff.

 

I’m not going to bother going through it all but it’s out there if you want to find it. 

After making a name for himself and losing his job because of his lying about things...

 

Name one thing he has been out in front of that turned out to be true and that no one else has had?  Just asking for 1.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 hours ago, Peregrine said:

After making a name for himself and losing his job because of his lying about things...

 

Name one thing he has been out in front of that turned out to be true and that no one else has had?  Just asking for 1.

@Skinsinparadise Can probably break it down best for you, if he’d be willing.

 

But he was out in front of the Scot firing and Doug’s promotion.

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

@Skinsinparadise Can probably break it down best for you, if he’d be willing.

 

But he was out in front of the Scot firing and Doug’s promotion.

 

He had the lead on the Scot story, he's the guy who broke it first

 

He had a lead on multiple coaching interviews that were about to be had during the defensive coaching search with guys like Keim giving him credit for having them first 

 

He had the they will promote Doug first story

[Skinsinparadise]

Cooley just now talking about a topic we discussed here -- Redskins Park.   Cooley more or less going its still one of the worst facilities in the league, saying its behind even most college facilities.  He said they made a lot of strides in the last 6 years but its still way behind most of the rest of the league.

 

Cooley said some players like to have all the trappings of these modern NFL parks -- seemed to be hinting everything being equal in FA it could be a factor in recruiting players. 

 

Sheehan going (like some of us did) for a team with all of the money this team makes how can this be?

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Cooley said some players like to have all the trappings of these modern NFL parks -- seemed to be hinting everything being equal in FA it could be a factor in recruiting players. 

I think it's only natural for prospective employees in any industry to get caught up in the eye candy of the facility they'll be spending a lot of time in.  I doubt anyone goes in thinking "I'm going to sign here if the facility is legit" but no doubt it leaves an impression on folks.  When you see an employer really invests in their employees, it can help move the needle in the decision making process.

 

The fact that the Redskins facility is not up to par aligns with what many of us have said in the past in relation to the myth that Dan is Daddy Warbucks, willing to spend whatever it takes because "he wants to win". While that might ring true in regards to free agents and coaches, it doesn't spread across his entire organization.

[skinny21]

Purely my impression, but it feels like they’ve mostly just been putting lipstick on the Ashburn pig.  

 

Did they ever get the practice bubble back up?  Yeah, right?

 

I’d love to see the training staff looked into and perhaps a more robust scouting department.  

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I think it's only natural for prospective employees in any industry to get caught up in the eye candy of the facility they'll be spending a lot of time in.  I doubt anyone goes in thinking "I'm going to sign here if the facility is legit" but no doubt it leaves an impression on folks.  When you see an employer really invests in their employees, it can help move the needle in the decision making process.

 

Part of Cooley's point is Redskins Park becomes your home away from home so having a top flight facility is a big deal.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Part of Cooley's point is Redskins Park becomes your home away from home so having a top flight facility is a big deal.  

Yeah, and it certainly makes the most sense from a free agency perspective, because these guys have been elsewhere and know what its supposed to look like.

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Yeah, and it certainly makes the most sense from a free agency perspective, because these guys have been elsewhere and know what its supposed to look like.

 

Yeah its become a bit of a joke on the FA thread that we seem to do better with FAs without the visit to the Redskins Park -- probably coincidence but maybes you wonder everything being equal...

[XtremeFan55]

This could be the reason.  Snyder lost $130 million on 6 Flags investment in 2010.  Knowing that his wealth is mainly tied into the value of the Redskins, stadium and training facility...Snyder must be cash poor but asset rich.  In other words...rich on paper which is meaningless unless those assets are sold for the intrinsic value.  My guess is that Snyder borrowed heavily against those assets to buy the shares for 6 Flags and lost all that money.

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2010/05/downward_spiral.html

 

The frustrating part is that almost right across the street from Redskins Park is a large property that was originally going to be used to build a minor league baseball stadium called Kincora.  Right near the TopGolf facility.   Land is disappearing fast around here and this parcel would be perfect for a new state-of-the-art  $1 billion training facility that would draw all those FA that would maybe sign at a discount like Sheldon Richardson did with the Vikings.  Snyder could build then move across the street then sell off the old facility.

 

But probably will never happen because Snyder could conceivably be holding on for dear life right now which could eventually lead to him being forced to sell the team.  I am sure the league has standards that all owners must adhere to such as financially and they have the right to force a sale if necessary to protect the league.

 

Bottom line is...something is just not right with the franchise for the past several years.  They are being too cheap with an owner who likes to make big splashes but apparently can’t right now.  Makes all the sense in the world to me that he could be financially unable to handle his lifestyle plus the stadium etc....

 

this doesn’t even take into consideration another investment in Johnny Rockets that is going belly up also.

[XtremeFan55]

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2014/09/dan_snyder_stadium_deal_if_the_washington_owner_gets_public_money_to_build.html

 

Wow!  A bit harsh..but another article I stumbled across.  Fits in with everything going on this thread and shines some light on this stadium deal Allen is suppose to be greasing thru.

 

 

[OVCChairman]

17 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Part of Cooley's point is Redskins Park becomes your home away from home so having a top flight facility is a big deal.  

 

 

That would make a ton of sense.... As much time is spent there, if it's a drag when they're there, I can see how it could have a residual effect on a lot of different things.  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

19 hours ago, XtremeFan55 said:

Bottom line is...something is just not right with the franchise for the past several years.  They are being too cheap with an owner who likes to make big splashes but apparently can’t right now.  Makes all the sense in the world to me that he could be financially unable to handle his lifestyle plus the stadium etc....

 

this doesn’t even take into consideration another investment in Johnny Rockets that is going belly up also.

Dan Snyder is a pretty bad businessman who lucked into a fortune at an opportune time to purchase the Redskins. None of his other ventures are well-run or very successful. It's not surprising that giving him nearly 20 years to run this organization has led to this. 

 

I don't say any of that with spite or hatred, but it seems accurate based on what we know about Six Flags, Snyder Communications, Johnny Rockets, and business decisions he's made for the Redskins. I'm not surprised that he now doesn't have a lot of cash available to invest in facilities, scouting, analytics, etc.

[Malapropismic Depository]

I havn't ever posted in this thread before, but I assume everyone has seen the article from last week, making a claim that Dan was furious with Bruce, and on the verge of firing him, err actually the term used was "reassigned"

[SkinsFTW]

15 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

That would make a ton of sense.... As much time is spent there, if it's a drag when they're there, I can see how it could have a residual effect on a lot of different things.  

 

Like, for instance, Sua Cravens bailing out to the West coast. And everything that followed.

[Thinking Skins]

I was doing a lot of talking about Bruce Allen and The Packers way of building a team. Here's a nice article on that matter.

 

http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/packers/ted-thompson-will-live-and-die-with-his-draft-and-develop-philosophy-b99354283z1-275794411.html

 

"If we wanted to be honest, we all have a tendency to drift toward that that you know better," Thompson said. "If you know Player A that's been on your team or practice squad for X number of games as opposed to Player B who might have a chance to be better but you don't know him as well, I think you have to weigh that.

 

Having won a Super Bowl and reached the playoffs six times in eight seasons with Mike McCarthy, Thompson applauds the coach and his assistants for being flexible in the face of such youth.

"The reason we're able to do this is we have a coaching staff that doesn't get that carried away on the personnel side of it," he said. "They just want you to give them good guys that can play and they'll coach 'em up."

 

Don't think some NFL teams haven't adopted draft-and-develop strategies because of the prosperity the Packers have enjoyed under Thompson. Two Lions officials, vice chairman Bill Ford and GM Martin Mayhew, have referred in recent years to Green Bay's drafting model.

 

Its a bit dated (2014) and we know that Thompson has been releived of his duties, but I think its very interesting seeing Bruce's actions and while they do not mirror Thompson's (Bruce is more involved in FA than Thompson), its not like Thompson's method didn't bring him success.

 

[pjfootballer]

We still have an “AstroTurf” field at the practice facility.  Enough said.