Makaveli

The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

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59 minutes ago, jsharrin55 said:

 

No games, no gear and nothing from commercials that I see during the game.  I'm doing what I can.  Doesn't seem to be helping.

 

No offense, but Snyder would barely feel a thing financially even if the stadium was empty every game and no one ever bought one jersey. These owners are so insulated because of revenue sharing. I'd love to see what the floor is each year that each team makes before the nickel and dime stuff that goes on top of it. 

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18 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

That would first require Dan to recognize and acknowledge the genius that Bill appears to be.  I think it's rather clear by his two choices to run his FO over his entire ownership, coupled with the outrageous trade proposals we've heard he concocted, that identifying talent is not a real strong suit for him.

 

I know. And the Wizards suck. If you goal is to depress me its working. 

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3 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I know. And the Wizards suck. If you goal is to depress me its working. 

Perhaps Ernie and Bruce should vacation together, pounding Coors lights, one-upping one another on job saving moves that keep them employed past their expiration date. 

 

I laugh but I cry.

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6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Perhaps Ernie and Bruce should vacation together, pounding Coors lights, one-upping one another on job saving moves that keep them employed past their expiration date. 

 

I laugh but I cry.

 

Thinking of them in Lost actually made my day. I appreciate it lol

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1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

No offense, but Snyder would barely feel a thing financially even if the stadium was empty every game and no one ever bought one jersey. These owners are so insulated because of revenue sharing. I'd love to see what the floor is each year that each team makes before the nickel and dime stuff that goes on top of it. 

He probably wouldn't feel it financially, but when it comes to PR, that would be a huge blow you shouldn't discard so easily.

Media, players, every one within the NFL and outside would makes this huge news if the Redskins were playing in an empty stadium.

 

We're not Jacksonville, we're DC, everything that happens here is magnified and that would give local and national media a huge bone to chew over for quite some time.

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7 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

He probably wouldn't feel it financially, but when it comes to PR, that would be a huge blow you shouldn't discard so easily.

Media, players, every one within the NFL and outside would makes this huge news if the Redskins were playing in an empty stadium.

 

We're not Jacksonville, we're DC, everything that happens here is magnified and that would give local and national media a huge bone to chew over for quite some time.

I don't disagree. I've stated earlier in this thread that embarrassment will force change much sooner than money. 

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2 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

No offense, but Snyder would barely feel a thing financially even if the stadium was empty every game and no one ever bought one jersey. These owners are so insulated because of revenue sharing. I'd love to see what the floor is each year that each team makes before the nickel and dime stuff that goes on top of it. 

 

Probably so.  Though according to Paulsen and Russell as to different segments from different sources they've talked to in the front office:

 

Dan's weak spots

 

A.  Fan unrest that is so loud it reaches the stadium and or his family hears about it. They don't mean people like us complaining on this board but the 2009 style open fan unrest that reaches them.

B. Fan no shows at games -- he hates the look, he's embarrassed by it.  And concession stands is a big part of their profit.

C. The minority owners are much more with it and sharper than Dan so if fan unrest-dysfunction comes out via the media -- it gets their attention.  And for the moment the minority owners don't care for Bruce.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Dan is a disaster.  But I am a little more optimistic than some about things can change.  And not from the stand point that Dan does the right thing for the right reasons.  I think he is capable of doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.  By that I mean he feels pressure to do it.

 

I do think pressure led to the Scot hiring.  Fassel not being hired.  Zorn-Cerrato leaving.  So I don't see this as hopeless as some.  But I do think we have to luck into it.  And I do think Bruce leaving doesn't per se = Bruce Part 2 arriving.  I am not saying I am confident that it won't happen that way.  But if the other owners tell Dan Bruce is a disaster and Dan has some inkling that fans hate having a politician type like Bruce running the show -- then I think there is a fighting chance that we get a Dorsey type.  If Dan supposedly is obsessed with PR I'd figure he'd get hiring a Bruce clone would fall flat.  I am not saying its likely but I don't see it as impossible. 

 

That's my long winded way of saying Bruce leaving -- I think gives us a fighting chance.  I don't see it as hopeless but as an opportunity if he's gone.  I'd chance Dan doesn't hire someone worse -- tough to pull off worse than Bruce IMO. 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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21 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I don't disagree. I've stated earlier in this thread that embarrassment will force change much sooner than money. 

 

Well... eventually you run out of epiphanies.

 

After all we've been through surely you don't think he's going to change now.

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I do thing pressure led to the Scot hiring.  Fassel not being hired.  Zorn-Cerrato leaving.  So I don't see this as hopeless as some.  But I do think we have to luck into it.  And I do think Bruce leaving doesn't per se = Bruce Part 2 arriving.  I am not saying I am confident that it won't happen that way.  But if the other owners tell Dan Bruce is a disaster and Dan has some inkling that fans hate having a politician type like Bruce running the show -- then I think there is a fighting chance that we get a Dorsey type.  I am not saying its likely but I don't see it as impossible. 

 

That's my long winded way of saying Bruce leaving -- I think gives us a fighting chance.  I don't see it as hopeless but as an opportunity if he's gone.  I'd chance Dan doesn't hire someone worse -- tough to pull off worse than Bruce IMO. 

 

 

 

I do agree with that - the Chiefs game where everyone left in the snow at halftime - wasn't Scot hired like a month or two later (Edit - NM, that was 2013 and Scot was hired in 2015)?

 

(So it led to Shanny being fired and then Grudent coming in)

 

But there was comfort soon after - and Scot was fired.

 

Zorn was on everyone's list as an OC who was interviewed to replace Gibbs.  Well lets just hire Zorn.

 

But there was disorganization after - and Zorn was fired.

 

Cerrato was fired for fan unrest - he was replaced with Bruce and Bruce was given the role of "General Manager."  Then shortly after Team President.

 

Bottom line, he does things, but then they don't last long either because of a comfort issue or a performance issue.

 

I will say absolute KUDOS to him for keeping Jay on.  I think Jay is one of the best offensive minds in the game, despite what the Madden playcallers think.

Edited by DC9
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Dan is a disaster is that he doesn't know who to surround with. As you said, Cerrato was a football guy. Not a good one, but a football guy, and probably one that didn't know how to tell Dan to stop from medling.

Now we went with Bruce that almost certainly knows how to deal with Dan and makes him do what Bruce wants. But Bruce is not a football guy by any means, and more of a power type of guy that is here for "fame and glory" more than anything else.

Surrounded with the right people, it could be great. He's the type of guy that could sign the HC for 10 years if the guy went ont to win a SB. He would have signed Tom Brady for 20 years if allowed to. If that felt on him only, he would have sign Kirk years ago.

 

 

Each time I watch this vid, I believe this guy is not an owner, he's not the boss, he's just a fan that mostly nobody cares much about in the building as long as he pays check.

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1 hour ago, Wildbunny said:

Media, players, every one within the NFL and outside would makes this huge news if the Redskins were playing in an empty stadium.

 

dont we basically do this already? 

even if the skins fans stopped buying tickets the stadium would fill up with opposing fans 

the only option would be to buy every ticket possible and not show up...which would be counterproductive obviously 

 

our stadium is both garbage (field conditions, etc) and filled with rival fans no matter opponent or game. we could be playing LAC with our season on the line and somehow the stadium would be 50% chargers fans, when they can’t even fill in their own stadium 

 

sometimes i’m amazed by the dysfunction of this franchise...other times i’m saddened. 

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53 minutes ago, It'sCampbellJasonCampbell said:

 

dont we basically do this already? 

even if the skins fans stopped buying tickets the stadium would fill up with opposing fans 

the only option would be to buy every ticket possible and not show up...which would be counterproductive obviously 

 

our stadium is both garbage (field conditions, etc) and filled with rival fans no matter opponent or game. we could be playing LAC with our season on the line and somehow the stadium would be 50% chargers fans, when they can’t even fill in their own stadium 

 

sometimes i’m amazed by the dysfunction of this franchise...other times i’m saddened. 

 

Well the covering of the seats has become more embarrassing than anything.  I brought my son to his first game in 2016 and he asked if we could go jump on them because he thought it was part of a bounce house.

 

Which, to be fair, would've been more fun that watching us lose the the Panthers on primetime in 20 degree weather.  Left at halftime cause he fell asleep.  Woke up the next morning and I told him we won.

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2 hours ago, DC9 said:

 

Well... eventually you run out of epiphanies.

 

After all we've been through surely you don't think he's going to change now.

 

I do agree with that - the Chiefs game where everyone left in the snow at halftime - wasn't Scot hired like a month or two later (Edit - NM, that was 2013 and Scot was hired in 2015)?

 

(So it led to Shanny being fired and then Grudent coming in)

 

But there was comfort soon after - and Scot was fired.

 

Zorn was on everyone's list as an OC who was interviewed to replace Gibbs.  Well lets just hire Zorn.

 

But there was disorganization after - and Zorn was fired.

 

Cerrato was fired for fan unrest - he was replaced with Bruce and Bruce was given the role of "General Manager."  Then shortly after Team President.

 

Bottom line, he does things, but then they don't last long either because of a comfort issue or a performance issue.

 

I will say absolute KUDOS to him for keeping Jay on.  I think Jay is one of the best offensive minds in the game, despite what the Madden playcallers think.

 

I agree with all of this.  But to me a key distinction was when Scot was hired -- Bruce was still around.  

 

Cooley got into a story today where he hinted loudly that Bruce was the guy who did this (he joked and said lets say it was Barry -- or it was some B name) came into the studio yesterday and saw a Kirk Cousins sweater (Czaben forgot and left it there).  He got upset and said get this the heck out of here.

 

Then Cooley-Sheehan got into a discussion about how this team needs to learn how to take the high road which hasn't been the thing here. 

 

On the Kirk contract and the Scot situation the guy who comes off petty and vindictive is Bruce not Dan.  Now, we know Dan can be petty and vindictive in his own right.  But I get the sense Bruce brings his own brand.  Maybe I am biased from my one day at Redskins Park during the 2016 season -- Bruce was everywhere.  Dan wasn't even in.  

 

I blame Dan for fostering a culture where a guy like Bruce thrives.  But yeah i am a different cat than many of the Dan critics in that I don't see that Dan is pulling Bruce's strings.  I think its closer to the reverse.  Don't get me wrong, I think Dan is a disaster.  But I think Bruce makes that disaster worse.  I know most see it as the opposite. 

 

Just judging from some of the stories on the Kirk contract and the Scot situation, the guy who is painted the villain isn't Dan but its Bruce.  And the beat reporters and Scot and Kirk as individuals I don't think are naive and just missing that Dan only pretends to be nice to them while getting the poor-hapless dupe Bruce Allen to do his bidding and take the hit for being the bad guy.

 

My gut is there is some grey to the Dan-Bruce dynamic. I do think both are problems.  And yeah I do agree Dan's learned to do some of his crazy stuff in the shadows.  But I do think Bruce's personality looms large over the organization.  I don't buy that he's just a good guy corrupted by Dan.   I see him more as a bad guy for the culture of the team who helps bring out Dan's worst instincts.

 

I agree that they got comfortable when they dumped Scot, thinking the fans among others would be cool with replacing him with Doug.  I think though that was a miscalculation.   They thought the fans would buy into the nostalgia.  But we didn't.  But I'd put money that Bruce was a key driver in this.  It's Bruce that hired Doug in Tampa.  Bruce hired Doug here.  And I'd bet that it was Bruce's idea to elevate the guy that some beat reporters have said have Bruce's back more than anyone.

 

So to sum it up for me.  I think Dan is 100% responsible for the bad culture.  Bruce is 80% responsible for the lack of class and competence the FO has shown at times of late.  Put the two together and its double trouble.  Replace Bruce with someone who is a good guy and competent -- we at least have a fighting chance.    

 

Edit:  a lot of that point had nothing to do with your post.  I was just addressing my take on the Dan-Bruce dynamic.  I am a soldier in arms with those who believe that Dan is the main problem.  But I disagree with those who minimize Bruce's role in all the latest dysfunction.  I think Bruce has been the lead dance in most of the latest craziness and much of if was his own conception.  I blame Dan for fostering the culture and condoning it all.   My thought is if Bruce is gone -- it might go better than some fear.

 

Dan instead of worshipping dudes like Bruce -- worship people like Joe Gibbs.  Dan did seem to kowtow to Gibbs.  Too bad Gibbs wasn't a real GM.  But IMO we need to luck out and Dan finds someone else that is both competent and has high character.  

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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http://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/35562/redskins-remain-stuck-in-the-middle-for-super-bowl-contention

One question will be how they handle their first full offseason with a realigned front office. They survived last offseason after firing general manager Scot McCloughan, but a lot of work already had been done. They’re more settled, but the Redskins will have some key people in roles they did not occupy a year ago. It helps that coach Jay Gruden is considered a good talent evaluator.

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That's the big question to me to, SIP. Allen has had two pretty good drafts. One was the post-Shanny draft where he had full control and the other was the post-Mc Cloughan draft where he had supposedly full control. Now, it's not as simple as all that because during the post Shanny draft, we apparently hired Scott's consulting firm to help scout for us and in the post Scott draft, we relied on Scott's work before he left. So, this is a big test for Allen in a number of ways. If they can pull off two very good drafts in a row then we should pay attention to it. If he falls on his arse, we should pay attention to that to. If he is so-so... well, then I need to question whether we can be satisfied with so-so because I think that may be as good as Allen really is.

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26 minutes ago, Burgold said:

That's the big question to me to, SIP. Allen has had two pretty good drafts. One was the post-Shanny draft where he had full control and the other was the post-Mc Cloughan draft where he had supposedly full control. Now, it's not as simple as all that because during the post Shanny draft, we apparently hired Scott's consulting firm to help scout for us and in the post Scott draft, we relied on Scott's work before he left. So, this is a big test for Allen in a number of ways. If they can pull off two very good drafts in a row then we should pay attention to it. If he falls on his arse, we should pay attention to that to. If he is so-so... well, then I need to question whether we can be satisfied with so-so because I think that may be as good as Allen really is.

 

I don't mean this part sarcastically -- but the vibe you get both from Bruce and people covering him is that this is Bruce's first defacto draft.  Here's why:

 

Bruce in the past really wouldn't try to bill himself as a football guy.  We never hear him saying yeah I scouted this guy or that guy.  He instead refers back to Scott Campbell and company.  Mike Lombardi who worked with Bruce in a front office pretty much said the dude knows squat about personnel -- that's not his thing.  

 

So I take the 2014-2017 draft as a combination of Scott Campbell and Scot McCloughan.  Bruce is just the dude who signed off on their picks.

 

But 2018 is a different baby.  Scot is gone.  And now we've heard from multiple people that Bruce is trying to reinvent himself as a football guy.  He's getting into watching tape and doesn't like his image as a non-football guy.

 

I know some are critical about Jay on personnel.  But Scot told me right to my face that Jay is a really good judge of talent.  He didn't say a word about Bruce or Doug on that front.  For me the one person I trust on personnel is Jay.  Maybe Kyle Smith and Campbell.  So hopefully those voices prevail.  

 

And wandering to a different point.  IMO judging a draft isn't about does a top prospect fall in your lap in the first round and you take the guy.  Anyone of us on the board can do that.   We all know R. Smith, Vea, etc.  It's IMO what do they do with the non-obvious picks and tougher rounds to find talent.

 

As big of a draft guy I am -- I still don't think being a GM is all about that.  It's about having a long-term vision.  Who do you keep, who do you let go.  Being ahead of the game, FA -- the whole soup.

 

There are multiple beat reporters who have hinted that there is a win now mindset because of Alex-Smith-Kirk dynamic.  And the owner might be growing impatient.  That to me is an example of dysfunction.  We got politics and impatience maybe effecting how they go about this off season?

 

If so to me it brings home how Bruce and Dan I think bring out the worst in each other.  Pure speculation on my end -- but these type of dynamics worry me.  Lets say we got Bruce front and center with all the nonsense about the Kirk contract and Scot -- creating fan unrest and the media is pounding the team for all of it.  The team again is a punch line.  Like or not like Scot or Kirk, its difficult to counter argue that both situations were mishandled -- and few were impressed with the Doug hire.   We got Dan perhaps bothered by it and the minority owners giving him a hard time. 

 

Lets say with a backdrop like that, Bruce feels on the spot to prove himself.  With that in mind, it can color both the FA and the draft for more of an all in approach.  Bruce isn't dumb.  If Kirk goes to lets say Minny and takes them to a Superbowl and Alex Smith struggles -- he's likely a goner.  He needs to do something about it. 

 

When you got a big time ego driven politician running personnel -- coupled with an overreactive emotional dude singing the checks.  I don't think its like those old Reeses Peanut Butter commercial about chocolate and peanut butter being such a great combination. 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't mean this part sarcastically -- but the vibe you get both from Bruce and people covering him is that this is Bruce's first defacto draft. 

 

 

It's not so much that this is Bruce's first draft though I get why you get that impression... It's that it's his first draft with the 'skins where he has absolutely no excuses. There's no Shanny is the guy contractually in full control of the draft and free agency. There's no Scott McCloughan is the brain behind this draft and free agency. This is Bruce Allen's FO and baby. He can't shovel the credit or blame to anyone. It's his team, his draft, and his responsibility.

 

Can he succeed without Shanny or Scott's board, guidance, and scouting? Can he pull off a second good draft in a row?

Edited by Burgold

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9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

And wandering to a different point.  IMO judging a draft isn't about does a top prospect fall in your lap in the first round and you take the guy.  Anyone of us on the board can do that.   We all know R. Smith, Vea, etc.  It's IMO what do they do with the non-obvious picks and tougher rounds to find talent.

 

As big of a draft guy I am -- I still don't think being a GM is all about that.  It's about having a long-term vision.  Who do you keep, who do you let go.  Behind ahead of the game, FA -- the whole soup.

 

 

Quoting this just so some folks that need to read and absorb this do it a second time.

 

Because I've seen people cling to Bruce being not so bad because he actually prioritizes the draft unlike Vinny.  I agree that Bruce's philosophy towards the draft is better than that of Vinny.  But running the team is about a lot more than that.  It's about having a long term plan for what success looks like, knowing the type of players needed to fit schemes, knowing when to cut bait and when to pull the trigger....early, knowing who's worthy of breaking the bank in FA and who isn't, and bringing that all together is the building of relationships and a positive culture.  Bruce hasn't show the ability to do much of that at all in his entire tenure as GM/Team President.  So again why does he get any benefit of doubt when it comes to fumbling situations like Kirk?  He hasn't earned it.

Edited by BatteredFanSyndrome
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1 minute ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

How sad is it that I wish we would hire the highly competent, functional drunk back and fire BA?  We'd be better off. Pretty sad.

What's more sad is how excited we all were to hire a guy with a track record as a drunk in the first place.  That should tell the story of BA right there.  It was at the time that Allen hired Scot that I thought, you know what - maybe BA is smarter than I give credit for.  He recognizes that personnel is not his strong suit and is hiring a highly touted and respected guy in that field, even if he has prior transgressions.  That's what a real leader does.  But it's become more clear over time that he was never really fully okay with doing that. 

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3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

  Bruce hasn't show the ability to do much of that at all in his entire tenure as GM/Team President.  So again why does he get any benefit of doubt when it comes to fumbling situations like Kirk?  He hasn't earned it.

Because its easier to be a fan of the team, when it isn't the team's fault, but the greedy player's fault. Many here are considering walking away from their 45 year fandom because of what's been witnessed and tolerated the last 20 years or so. Many here are just not that at that point yet. I salute them for their fortitude. But to maintain their fandom, it has to be someone else's fault.

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

What's more sad is how excited we all were to hire a guy with a track record as a drunk in the first place.  That should tell the story of BA right there.  It was at the time that Allen hired Scot that I thought, you know what - maybe BA is smarter than I give credit for.  He recognizes that personnel is not his strong suit and is hiring a highly touted and respected guy in that field, even if he has prior transgressions.  That's what a real leader does.  But it's become more clear over time that he was never really fully okay with doing that. 

It was a PR move. Scot was never the GM.

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