Makaveli

The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

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10 minutes ago, Burgold said:

The most damning thing about the Eagles win today is how empty their roster was after Chip Kelly. The Eagles had absolute crap in terms of talent. It doesn't take twenty years to rebuild or ten or five. The Eagles did it in two freaking years.

 

Allen and Gruden need to take that to heart.

 

Plus they might even get a first rounder for Foles in the off season.  When Breer did an article about who have the best personnel people in FOs around the league based on him asking around -- Eagles had three guys from their FO mentioned.  Redskins had ZERO.  We can make fun of the cowboys but Jerry Jones from what I've read has backed off of personnel for the most part -- their pro personnel guy is considered one of the best in the business.  The Giants changed their FO.  And for me at least Bruce and Doug don't inspire me as people who will compete with the NFC East FOs. 

 

I get asked sometimes why would I have any hope that things will change?  My thought is the Dallas arrangement I don't think is that far fetched.   I was holding out hope that Bruce would put a real stud personnel guy in play even if it was under him -- Doug to me was a major disappointing hire to me.  In my mind that was Bruce hiring someone who had his back and who he wasn't threatened by.

 

While I think Dan will always be a problem.  I do think it would help to have a GM who doesn't play the games Bruce does.  Maybe Dan would get lucky and hire the right guy?  I don't know.    But I am not convinced Dan would replace Bruce with another Bruce.  Don't get me wrong I think its possible but I think there is a fighting chance that he wakes up -- maybe he has to hit bottom first?

 

Wow. Eagles are just a complete organization, not just team. That's how you win.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 When Breer did an article about who have the best personnel people in FOs around the league based on him asking around -- Eagles had three guys from their FO mentioned.  Redskins had ZERO. 

My biggest disappointment with the Scott episode was that we stayed pat. I imagined, hoped he would bring in his own scouts or at least beef up the department with additional talent. We stayed with the same group that failed under Shanny. No new hires or at least no hires of note.

 

It made no sense then and it makes no sense now.

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I hope Dan is seething right now. I hope his pain is a 1000 times worse than the fans. I hope his suffering will never let him sleep well for the rest of his life. Teams with competent leadership rebuild quickly. Teams with a modicum of success may have a 12+ win season now and then. We’ve sucked the entire time Snyder has owned this team. We’ve never been close. The eagles just won the Super Bowl after the disaster that was Chip. The cowboys have at least had some solid 12+ win seasons and have given their fan base hope. The Giants have 2 super bowl wins. We have ****, and turmoil, and nothing. Good job Dan!

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We haven't reached 11 wins in 26 years. Let that soak in. Virtually every other NFL(quite possibly all of them) have reached 11-5 at least once since 1991. For the record, the Browns went 11-5 in 1994.

 

*edit* after looking at pro football reference, we do have the longest drought of not reaching 11 wins.

Edited by SlinginSammy HOF '63
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4 minutes ago, Burgold said:

My biggest disappointment with the Scott episode was that we stayed pat. I imagined, hoped he would bring in his own scouts or at least beef up the department with additional talent. We stayed with the same group that failed under Shanny. No new hires or at least no hires of note.

 

It made no sense then and it makes no sense now.

 

It was the moment I read he was keeping the inherited staff in tact that I got my first inkling "total control" had a different meaning for Bruce than it does normal people.

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Thinking about this from reading various posts.  You got different schools of thoughts on Bruce-Dan among the critics.

 

Group 1

A. Dan = bad

B. Anyone under him will always = bad

 

Group 2

A. Dan = bad

B. Bruce = bad in his own right.

 

Group 3

A. Dan = bad

B. Bruce just carries Dan's water -- we don't know if he's good or bad at what he does.

 

Group 4

A. Dan = bad

B. Dan makes bad hires.  Maybe someday like the Browns owners he wakes up.

 

I am personally somewhere around Group 2 and Group 4.  I do think Bruce going especially driven by fan outcry might have an impact.  My gut is that Dan is unlikely to replace Bruce with another Bruce clone.  How dense can Dan get?  don't get me wrong I think Dan will always be a problem but I could live with the Cowboys arrangement where Jerry interferes but their FO is full of studs.  That's my desire here.  Not ideal.  But I am not convinced Dan is so tone deaf that he'd replace Bruce with another "meh" FO hire.  As for whether that would go well?  You got me.  But its a start. 

 

 

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when are people going to get over Scot.  He didn't get that much for the Skins.  He got Norman and Vernon Davis for us.  some early round draft success.  Every "football player" guy with an injury history or some defect maintained his injury history and efect, and he managed to draft another guy who walked out on his team, Glen Coffee and Kentawan Balmer did that to the Niners under him

 

I mean hopefully the guys still on the team all live up to their potential, but so far they aren't huge overachievers

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10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Thinking about this from reading various posts.  You got different schools of thoughts on Bruce-Dan among the critics.

 

Group 1

A. Dan = bad

B. Anyone under him will always = bad

 

Group 2

A. Dan = bad

B. Bruce = bad in his own right.

 

Group 3

A. Dan = bad

B. Bruce just carries Dan's water -- we don't know if he's good or bad at what he does.

 

Group 4

A. Dan = bad

B. Dan makes bad hires.  Maybe someday like the Browns owners he wakes up.

 

 

 

There are two types of people; some want to win and others want to win “their way” and prove they are smarter than everyone else. The former builds a positive egoless team culture where good ideas are rewarded. The latter rewards infighting, backstabbing and obsessively focuses on who deserves credit.

 

Which type is Dan Snyder?

 

Which type is Bruce Allen?

 

That’s why we will NEVER build a sustainable winning franchise.

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14 minutes ago, carex said:

when are people going to get over Scot.  He didn't get that much for the Skins.  He got Norman and Vernon Davis for us.  some early round draft success.  Every "football player" guy with an injury history or some defect maintained his injury history and efect, and he managed to draft another guy who walked out on his team, Glen Coffee and Kentawan Balmer did that to the Niners under him

 

I mean hopefully the guys still on the team all live up to their potential, but so far they aren't huge overachievers

I think mainly it’s the fact that the team decided to sway away from a true gm after hiring one is what frustrates fans the most has less to do with Scott and whom he picked.

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Man, the Skins are just so far away from anything close to this.  I think that's the saddest thing for me tonight.  It isn't totally that Philly won, it's just that the Skins are so far removed from this, it's not anywhere to be seen on the horizon

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1 hour ago, Burgold said:

The most damning thing about the Eagles win today is how empty their roster was after Chip Kelly. The Eagles had absolute crap in terms of talent. It doesn't take twenty years to rebuild or ten or five. The Eagles did it in two freaking years.

 

Allen and Gruden need to take that to heart.

 

BAs rebuild plan includes McNugget trade and extension debacle, RG3 debacle, Shanny boys debacle, KC contract debacle, SM debacle. 

 

Dude is still in charge

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5 hours ago, SkinInsite said:

 

BAs rebuild plan includes McNugget trade and extension debacle, RG3 debacle, Shanny boys debacle, KC contract debacle, SM debacle. 

 

Dude is still in charge

The RGIII trade wasn't the problem. The Eagles' gave up for Wentz a comparable lot.

 

Browns get:
No. 8 (traded to TEN, OT Jack Conklin)
Third-round pick (traded to CAR, CB Daryl Worley)
Fourth-round pick (traded to OAK, QB Connor Cook)
First-round pick in '17
Second-round pick in '18

 

The problem was RGIII busting in combination with the Mara spirit of the cap fine plus all the other bad Shanny/Allen moves. Bad drafts, bad free agent pick ups, Haslett, and no cap are what killed the 'skins. The RGIII trade itself was expensive, but other teams have paid similar prices and made out okay. The difference is that when RGIII went down our back up couldn't couldn't do it or didn't have enough support to do it.

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52 minutes ago, Burgold said:

The RGIII trade wasn't the problem. The Eagles' gave up for Wentz a comparable lot.

 

Browns get:
No. 8 (traded to TEN, OT Jack Conklin)
Third-round pick (traded to CAR, CB Daryl Worley)
Fourth-round pick (traded to OAK, QB Connor Cook)
First-round pick in '17
Second-round pick in '18

 

The problem was RGIII busting in combination with the Mara spirit of the cap fine plus all the other bad Shanny/Allen moves. Bad drafts, bad free agent pick ups, Haslett, and no cap are what killed the 'skins. The RGIII trade itself was expensive, but other teams have paid similar prices and made out okay. The difference is that when RGIII went down our back up couldn't couldn't do it or didn't have enough support to do it.

also add that the eagles robbed the Vikings and got a 1st rounder back in the Bradford trade. that was huge!

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 Its pretty much a no-brainer that Bruce Allen and Dan Snyder have **** for brains and have no concept of building/maintaining a Superbowl-caliber team.

 

 We also know there's not much of anything that we as fans can say or do to remove Snyder.  The basis for his ineptness is hiring bumbling fools like Bruce Allen, and the only salvation he could achieve would be by firing Bruce Allen and hiring some competent people to get this team turned around. Its been proven time and time again that it can be done in as little as 2-3 years, even temporarily dominating, but that's better than nothing, which is exactly what we have now.

 

Bruce Allen is and will always be the rotten apple in the bunch. There is no defending him. His ego is a mountain and his skillset is a pebble. The shadow cast by his mountain overshadows any educated views and ideas of building a team worthy of greatness, as he is the be-all know-all of professional football, and his shadow has a spell cast over Snyder.

 

Snyder is a tool. A tool which can be used in a good way or a bad way, and Bruce is using him for the latter. I have sympathy for Snyder in a way, maybe its because he stood strong years ago when the team name was being slammed left and right [ mostly left ] but in the end he won, and I was damn proud of him for doing it instead of crumbling to the pressure.

 

But something has to be done. Talking, ****ing and moaning about Bruce Allen is not going to do a bit of good, especially when Bruce is in Snyder's ear the whole time saying ' those fans don't know what they're saying, ignore them '. And he is right to a degree, most of us wouldn't have an answer to getting this team on the right track, but we DO know that Bruce is not the answer.

 

By mass protest, physical or written, news coverage, whatever it takes, the message has to be relayed to Snyder that the fans are demanding Allen be removed from this organization. There HAS to be a way to get this message through, and it needs to be hammered into his mind that the fans demand change. It is disgusting that he still has a job after all of the failures of his past, and its leaving some wondering exactly WHAT would it take to fire him?! 

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8 hours ago, seantaylor=god said:

There are two types of people; some want to win and others want to win “their way” and prove they are smarter than everyone else. The former builds a positive egoless team culture where good ideas are rewarded. The latter rewards infighting, backstabbing and obsessively focuses on who deserves credit.

 

Which type is Dan Snyder?

 

Which type is Bruce Allen?

 

That’s why we will NEVER build a sustainable winning franchise.

 

I agree that winning "their way" is the key.    Like the Browns, I am hoping at some point Dan just stuns us and wakes up someday.  My issue with Bruce is that he's a clone of Dan.  I think Dan has a fighting chance if he lucks into hiring a guy with a winning personality.   And I admit I think it would have to be pure dumb luck.

 

For a flicker of a moment, it seemed like Dan-Bruce weren't tone deaf that the fan base were clamoring for a real personnel guy running the team.  They needed a splash and they understood then what would do it.  That's what gives me a flicker of hope that it could happen again.  

 

Like I said its the pro-Bruce people to me who are the more obsessed with Scot.  Most of us were saying if they let Scot go, OK, hire another dude like that to replace him.  I know I said that. You go to a Michelin Star restaurant and for whatever reason you order the wrong dish.  You got back next time and order another dish.   You don't go back to Burger King and say hey we are back to where we belong. 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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8 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

 

 Its pretty much a no-brainer that Bruce Allen and Dan Snyder have **** for brains and have no concept of building/maintaining a Superbowl-caliber team.

 

 We also know there's not much of anything that we as fans can say or do to remove Snyder.  The basis for his ineptness is hiring bumbling fools like Bruce Allen, and the only salvation he could achieve would be by firing Bruce Allen and hiring some competent people to get this team turned around. Its been proven time and time again that it can be done in as little as 2-3 years, even temporarily dominating, but that's better than nothing, which is exactly what we have now.

 

Bruce Allen is and will always be the rotten apple in the bunch. There is no defending him. His ego is a mountain and his skillset is a pebble. The shadow cast by his mountain overshadows any educated views and ideas of building a team worthy of greatness, as he is the be-all know-all of professional football, and his shadow has a spell cast over Snyder.

 

Snyder is a tool. A tool which can be used in a good way or a bad way, and Bruce is using him for the latter. I have sympathy for Snyder in a way, maybe its because he stood strong years ago when the team name was being slammed left and right [ mostly left ] but in the end he won, and I was damn proud of him for doing it instead of crumbling to the pressure.

 

But something has to be done. Talking, ****ing and moaning about Bruce Allen is not going to do a bit of good, especially when Bruce is in Snyder's ear the whole time saying ' those fans don't know what they're saying, ignore them '. And he is right to a degree, most of us wouldn't have an answer to getting this team on the right track, but we DO know that Bruce is not the answer.

 

By mass protest, physical or written, news coverage, whatever it takes, the message has to be relayed to Snyder that the fans are demanding Allen be removed from this organization. There HAS to be a way to get this message through, and it needs to be hammered into his mind that the fans demand change. It is disgusting that he still has a job after all of the failures of his past, and its leaving some wondering exactly WHAT would it take to fire him?! 

We don’t se eye to eye in the rusty ring thread but I agree with you100 percent here. At the end of the day without us this team is nothing, most kids that grow up in dc careless about the skins because they are terrible it’s very sad.

Edited by CjSuAvE22

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19 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

 

Snyder is a tool. A tool which can be used in a good way or a bad way, and Bruce is using him for the latter. I have sympathy for Snyder in a way, maybe its because he stood strong years ago when the team name was being slammed left and right [ mostly left ] but in the end he won, and I was damn proud of him for doing it instead of crumbling to the pressure.

 

From some beat guys talking about Dan-Bruce the impression they give is this and this is from in particular Chris Russell:

 

Dan is awkward with people.  Shy and uncomfortable.   Bruce (like Vinny was) is Mr. gregarious.  He can walk Dan around the owners meetings and be the belle of the ball type and help Dan be comfortable around the cool kids.  So he relies on Bruce to be a social crutch.

 

And Bruce is a master at manipulating Dan and the politics of that building.  If you get along with Bruce he's your greatest ally.  If you are disagreeable, you will rue the day to cross him. He wants to have his fingers in everything.  He wants to be the most powerful guy there and just as importantly be perceived around the league as the most powerful guy there.

 

Does Dan set the culture for a guy like that to thrive?  No doubt.  But is it conceivable to me he'd get that hiring guys with top reputations for personnel would energize the fanbase and make his team a winner?  Yeah its conceivable to me.  He did do it once not long ago.   Will he probably muck it up like Jerry Jones does here and there in Dallas.  Probably.  But using Dallas as an example.  I'd rather have Dan messing in the kitchen with top chefs.  Then Dan messing in the kitchen with mediocre chefs.

Many would say the Skins are perpetually doomed as long as Bruce Allen controls flow of money/assets in DC. And I would wholeheartedly agree

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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To the “Scot didn’t do much,” crowd:

 

There have been 52 wins in Bruce’s 8 seasons.

 

17 of those are from Scot’s 2 years.

 

This means Bruce has a win/season rate of 5.8. The RG3 rookie season lightning in a bottle is literally the only good thing that has happened under Bruce, and even that 10 win season is only enough to skew the results to *almost* 6 wins per year. Outside of that season, Bruce as a GM has produced 5 wins/year.

 

If you want to argue Scot wasn’t great, fine. But if that is true, Bruce is beyond abhorrent.

 

Every decision he has made has hurt the team.

 

1: The Haynesworth Cap Dump - we can be pissed at the NFL over this, but it’s still Bruce’s decision. Don’t forget that he didn’t even fight the penalty besides pretending for five minutes that he might. 

 

RESULT: 2-year free agency death penalty

 

2: The RG3 trade

 

RESULT: A single playoff game at the cost of 4 high draft picks and, well, the absolute hell that was 2013-14. 

 

3: Blowing the Cousins situation. 

 

RESULT: We could have had him at $20M. Instead, he’s gone, so is our best corner, and we’re paying his replacement MORE than we would have Kirk. On Earth 2, Scot signed Kirk for $20M, and the team is headed for its fourth straight winning season. And yes, I absolutely think the team is .500+ last year with Scot. Sue me.

 

These are the big 3, but there are plenty of others. God help me, I almost miss Vinny.

 

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4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Dan is awkward with people.  Shy and uncomfortable.   Bruce (like Vinny was) is Mr. gregarious.  He can walk Dan around the owners meetings and be the belle of the ball type and help Dan be comfortable around the cool kids.  So he relies on Bruce to be a social crutch.

 

And Bruce is a master at manipulating Dan and the politics of that building.  If you get along with Bruce he's your greatest ally.  If you are disagreeable, you will rue the day to cross him. He wants to have his fingers in everything.  He wants to be the most powerful guy there and just as importantly be perceived around the league as the most powerful guy there.

I've been wondering about that lately.

If Bruce is as smart a politician as it can be, then it have to be true to a certain extent. As it's hard to see him being tricky everywhere but to Dan. And if you reach that position, with all the crappy results we see, then you have to believe he's also playing it with Dan. I can see him

 

So, then the real question is what will make Dan see the light so he can take notice that he's being abused by Bruce in any way. That Bruce isn't getting this team to take off, but keep it grounded.

 

Wormtongue1.jpg

That's kinda how it must look like...

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  1. One thing I'll say: How you treat people matters. Sometimes, guys talk to other free agents about a place. Sometimes, those other FA's listen.

    18 replies7 retweets55 likes
    Reply
  2.  

    John Keim Retweeted Dan Orlovsky

    Culture matters. helps you overcome adversity, etc...

    John Keim added,

    Dan OrlovskyVerified account @danorlovsky7
    On last night: I hope NFL GM’s look at the big picture. Yes, TALENT matters, but find a coach who can put together a championship staff, & call plays; then, BUILD A TEAM, NOT A ROSTER. What’s inside the locker room counts just as much as what’s on the field....#SuperBowlSunday
    3 replies2 retweets22 likes
     

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On 2/4/2018 at 10:01 AM, Makaveli said:

 Does his hiring back in the NFL give any indication of what happened while he was here or how the grievance played out?

 

I think it shows what we already knew: Scott is talented at evaluation but has personal issues that make you not want him inside the building.

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18 hours ago, Burgold said:

My biggest disappointment with the Scott episode was that we stayed pat. I imagined, hoped he would bring in his own scouts or at least beef up the department with additional talent. We stayed with the same group that failed under Shanny. No new hires or at least no hires of note.

 

It made no sense then and it makes no sense now.

 

I don't think the issue is with the scout department, or even the draft team. The problem IMO is and has been free agency and the team going too conservative every year. Eagles built through draft and free agency, same with Jags, Patriots, etc. We must make several solid pick ups this free agency, can't keep swinging and missing and/or settling for $5 mil bench guys. 

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Scot McCloughan and John Schneider were arguably at their best when they were working together.  Ditto years back when GB had a dream team of scouts.  That's what Philly has done according to some.  And that's what Cleveland is doing now.

 

It makes sense to me. Put 3-4 guys who are excellent at what they do and they likely can catch each others mistakes.

 

It's part of what made the Beatles and major rock groups better as a unit than they were when they split out in separate units. 

 

The sad thing here, oddly is we don't even have the solo guys let alone a stud group.  No Paul. John. George as individuals.  Heck I don't even think we got one guy with a Ringo reputation here.

 

It's a random thought on my end but what made me think of it is reading things over the years from Seattle fans that John Schneider was at his best when Scot was there.   And then reading about the Eagles and now the Browns laying their FO with not one but multiple studs in the front office.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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