Makaveli

The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

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3 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

 

Man, i sort of agree with you but if feels like you are under valuing coaching to make a point. I am probably just misreading it though. 

 

I think the point is, to get to where you have sustained success, you need at least a decent owner/GM combination. But even a good owner, GM and a bad coach will not get you to the top. You do need a decent coach. 

 

But coaches and GMs can come and go, so if you have a good owner, eventually you'll hit on GM/Coach. 

 

I also think a poor owner can be overcome with a good strong GM. See Indianapolis. 

 

But I have zero doubt that a Good coach can NOT overcome a poor owner/GM combination. 

 

So if you are saying that you believe people think hiring the right coach will turn this organization around, and by that point they are overvaluing the coach, you are 100% correct in my mind. 

 

But I do think that a coach can make a huge difference. It just will never be sustained. If you replace Jay Gruden with the Hoodie, the Redskins will not be the Patriots. But they will win more games, without a doubt. And he would also become unbearable to the front office quickly, and get fired at first chance. Any good coach would reach that end most likely. 

 

 

 

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^^Definitely not opposed strongly to anything you said there, but my take would have a little more nuance there and differ slightly in some areas. But we’re pretty much on the same wavelength @dballer

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I still am having a really, really, really difficult time understanding how people think this things have to be mutually exclusive.

 

Dan is unable or unwilling to craft a quality FO that breeds a good culture, therefore is unable or unwilling to hire a competent GM who is unable to find competent coaches and a quality roster. This whole thing rots from the head down. We keep arguing minutiae... it's the coach, no it's Bruce, no it's Dan... I accept that Dan has to be the one to change, but that festering pustule at the top of the organization is 100% the reason why everything underneath it is so dysfunctional.

 

20 years. 20... freaking... years. If he doesn't get it by now or get the fanbase, when will he. It's right there with his own two eyes.

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8 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

I still am having a really, really, really difficult time understanding how people think this things have to be mutually exclusive.

It’s not mutually exclusive though.  The point is that no head coach is a Teflon don capable of just kicking ass and taking names.  They need solid guys at the top to work with in order to be their best.  The point isn’t that Jay is a great or terrible coach, it’s that everyone here leaves a terrible coach as the result of what they deal with.

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2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It’s not mutually exclusive though.  The point is that no head coach is a Teflon don capable of just kicking ass and taking names.  They need solid guys at the top to work with in order to be their best.  The point isn’t that Jay is a great or terrible coach, it’s that everyone here leaves a terrible coach as the result of what they deal with.

 

My point is that Jay is an awful coach and was a bad hire by a bad GM who was a bad hire by a bad owner. We'll never have nice things unless and until Danny changes and that doesn't seem likely. Jay makes the same mistakes far, far too often to be considered anything better.

Edited by ntotoro
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7 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

 

I still am having a really, really, really difficult time understanding how people think this things have to be mutually exclusive

 


God I hate this particular argument, lol. Here’s the thing about it, the only ones making it mutually exclusive are actually those who think they can separate the role of the FO from the ability the coaches have to do their jobs at a high level. 
 

So when you say they can’t hire competent coaches, I say they can but those coaches won’t be able to display their competence in any meaningful or sustainable way. 
 

And I say it’s damn near impossible for us to be able to recognize accurately what effects what and to what degree when discussing what the coaches are doing because of our distance as fans. It’s hard enough for executives within the building to decipher, and they have direct access to information and decisions made everyday. 
 

Here’s what so many struggle with. They don’t understand how much the influence of coaching changes as you get through the levels of football. This is why I consistently qualify my argument by saying “coaching at the pro level”. 
 

They forget how much it differs from the pro level because: 

 

1) Most guys at the pro level know what they’re doing at a fundamental level schematically and;

 

2) The parity set up in the NFL via the salary cap and draft means the best teams will be the ones who can manage their resources the best way. 
 

Those things simply don’t apply to the lower levels of football. The lower you get, the more it doesn’t apply. At the pee wee level you aren’t getting to choose who your kids are for the most part, you just have what you have based on your region. Coaching is vital there. Through High School it is largely the same. 
 

Then you get to College and recruiting is a big part of everything. You can have the best coaches, but if you can’t recruit anyone like the bigger programs can you’re going to suck. But coaching is still more vital there since that’s really the only difference. 
 

But once we get to the pro level, it’s another world due to the cap and draft. Now you’re talking about so many moving chess pieces, asset management and personnel acquisitions that coaching take a backseat due to what I mentioned above. 

 

Right now, we have a ridiculous amount of cap space tied to players we are getting nothing from. That doesn’t even include Trent. Where is the discussion about that? Our coaches are essentially coaching with one hand tied behind their back as every other team in the league doesn’t have such an exorbitant waste of resources to deal with. They are actually getting production out of it, big or small.
 

When you look at it with basic economic principles, everything changes. The cumulative negative effect is disastrous. And, yes, it affects everything in the process. No human gets overwhelmed in one thing that it doesn’t affect him/her elsewhere, even in the seemingly mundane tasks. 

 

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@thesubmittedone

 

I understand what you're saying, especially the personnel issue and even the Trent issue has been discussed beyond ad nauseum in its own thread. What I'm not seeing you type, for whatever reason, is that this comes directly from what has been festering at the very tippy top for twenty years now.

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Just now, ntotoro said:

@thesubmittedone

 

I understand what you're saying, especially the personnel issue and even the Trent issue has been discussed beyond ad nauseum in its own thread. What I'm not seeing you type, for whatever reason, is that this comes directly from what has been festering at the very tippy top for twenty years now.


But that’s been my entire point. :ols: 

 

Oh well, I guess I’m making it poorly.
 

Or you just suck at reading. 😛 

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Just now, thesubmittedone said:


But that’s been my entire point. :ols: 

 

Oh well, I guess I’m making it poorly.
 

Or you just suck at reading. 😛 

 

Uh huh... 😂

 

Just say it is all... ;)

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Just now, ntotoro said:

 

Uh huh... 😂

 

Just say it is all... ;)

 

You must not know me. Short and straight to the point are not qualities I’ve been identified with. :ols: 

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I feel for an owner sometimes though lol

 

Shannahan a legend in the NFL, convinced many of us John Beck could be a quality starter in the league. 

 

As an owner, it’d be difficult to sit and watch the ineptitude displayed by “football people” at times. I agree, owners need to have quality people around, but I’m almost if the opinion talented GMs are as scarce as an elite QB and even the “talented” GMs often times require an elite QB to sustain success for more than 3 years. 

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Sheeham also thinks Bruce doesn't survive.  That's interesting.  Months ago some were saying Bruce was teflon again.  Who knows what's really going on but Sheehan and Grant both sometimes have nailed some FO stuff. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Sheeham also thinks Bruce doesn't survive.  That's interesting.  Months ago some were saying Bruce was teflon again.  Who knows what's really going on but Sheehan and Grant both sometimes have nailed some FO stuff. 

 

 

 

 

What's the use? Dan will just put another boot-licking crony in his place. Who will it be? Sherm Lewis? Pepper Rogers? Doug Willams?

 

Like many toxic leaders (Trump and Hillary), Dan values ass-kissers who tell him what he wants to hear more than people who are honest with him.

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3 minutes ago, BringMetheHeadofBruceAllen said:

 

What's the use? Dan will just put another boot-licking crony in his place. Who will it be? Sherm Lewis? Pepper Rogers? Doug Willams?

 

I get the point but we either want him to make a move or not.  I'd rather roll the dice and see what happens then let it ride with Bruce. 

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1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Sheeham also thinks Bruce doesn't survive.  That's interesting.  Months ago some were saying Bruce was teflon again.  Who knows what's really going on but Sheehan and Grant both sometimes have nailed some FO stuff. 

 

 

 

 

A definite different feel to it all this year. Not a difficult projection to make at this stage. 

 

I was hoping to squeeze some momentum out of last season (as you know), but with the injuries taking over and Alex Smith’s terrible situation I’ve resigned myself to being okay with a restart. 

 

Hang on for the ride. 

Edited by wit33
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5 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

A definite different feel to it all this year. Not a difficult projection to make at this stage. 

 

I was hoping to squeeze some momentum out of last season (as you know), but with the injuries taking over and Alex Smith’s terrible situation I’ve resigned myself to being okay with a restart. 

 

Hang on for the ride. 

 

You never know with the rumor type stuff.  I am guessing its these guys just talking to someone they know in the FO who is making their own guess about what happens.  But I recall in the off season, Russell (and someone else., its escaping me who) said they heard Bruce will be safe for awhile.  Brewer said he's safe as long as the stadium isn't secured.

 

But Paulsen and Sheehan don't think he survives.  But who knows?  And the narrative can change.  To me Kyle seems like the obvious guy to promote.  So for all those people who think Dan would hire someone else that we wouldn't like -- while I think is possible, I think it has to be at least 50-50 that Kyle is the next guy?

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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And if Kyle is the next guy he will turn out to be Vinny 3.0

Or he won't last until the 2nd year.

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16 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

And if Kyle is the next guy he will turn out to be Vinny 3.0

Or he won't last until the 2nd year.

 

If he doesn't make it, I'd assume the later not the former.  

 

Vinny and Bruce aren't/weren't good at their job before they got here IMO.  Bruce was called the Prince of Darkness before he got here.   Lombardi makes fun of the fact that Bruce wasn't even dealing with personnel at all in Oakland yet he's in charge of it here.   

 

There were blogs from Tampa fans about how Bruce was the worst GM in the league before he got here.   if Bruce leaves here like Vinny did, I doubt he gets an NFL job elsewhere.  Kyle may flame out but at least he's competent -- that's a head start over Vinny or Bruce IMO. 

 

If Kyle is hired and is canned within a year -- it just adds to the pile on Dan and in a big way.   

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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6 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Elite talent + good coaching < Elite coaching + good talent.

Coaching is a rather wide open term, when you take into account all the different types of coaches on a staff.  More importantly do all those coaches mesh optimally.  Another reason why it’s important for the head coach to hire all of his own staff.

 

Probably the wrong thread for this but somebody said this to me earlier today, we’ve tried several different secondary coaches, and the same communication problems still exist today.  At what point are the players just dumb?

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Lombardi makes fun of the fact that Bruce wasn't even dealing with personnel at all in Oakland yet he's in charge of it here.   

 

 

Lombardi did that for a reason, it's the same thing Al Davis did when Bruce won executive of the year at Oakland. When Bruce was hired here I posted that Al Davis quote here but everybody wanted to believe that somehow Dan Snyder had changed and didn't want to hear it.

 

 

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6 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

As an owner, it’d be difficult to sit and watch the ineptitude displayed by “football people” at times. I agree, owners need to have quality people around, but I’m almost if the opinion talented GMs are as scarce as an elite QB and even the “talented” GMs often times require an elite QB to sustain success for more than 3 years


Ok, but has Dan even tried? 
 

That’s what’s so ridiculous about it and unacceptable. 
 

Look at his last two hires for his top executive. Both guys in Vinny and Bruce were out of football at the time and had failed at their previous gigs. Neither were known to be really good at or experts at team building/personnel. Furthermore, he gave some of his coaches, like Gibbs and Shanny, power over them which is almost always a mistake at the pro level (Texans are the next to do it, I’m at 90% they’re going to collapse miserably and O’Brien has already made some outrageous moves... I just wish we had taken advantage of it while we could). 
 

So it’s a poor hiring process coupled with poor organizational structuring. 
 

And then these guys have this weird and creepy longevity with Snyder where they’ll outlast multiple coaches, which means they don’t have to be loyal to their own staff, just Dan. That is disastrous on an organizational level in so many ways, because it makes it so easy to break the unity necessary to work together and support each other and achieve the same goals. 
 

Instead we get the blame game and factionalism and division. 
 

So, no, I don’t have sympathy for Dan at all anymore. I used to, but not anymore. Not ever since 2013. I’ve seen enough. 
 

So many of us were flying high when we hired Scot McCloughan. Not because of him personally, but because of what it meant for the organizational structure. Many of us had said at the time that the move is about more than Scot. That, even if he fails, if that’s how we go about hiring and giving the title of GM out with power over personnel, eventually we will succeed because the chances are that much greater. But then we did the total opposite and went back to the vague structure that has killed us. Furthermore, it turned out Bruce was still really the guy running the show and Scot eventually ended up more like Kyle Smith is now, just in charge of College Scouting before his ouster. 
 

Why is it so difficult for Dan to just hire a proven, qualified, GM that wasn’t out of the league for years prior to that and has a resumé that shows he was recently in charge of or at least a big part of building a contender elsewhere? Why is this so difficult for him? Why should we feel bad that it is at this point, 20 years into his tenure? They’ve basically tried it once with Scot, and even that wasn’t in totality because Scot was out of football for his alcoholism. 
 

Is that really the best he can do? Sorry, I can’t buy into that. And I don’t feel bad for him at all. His number one job as Owner is to hire properly. That’s it. If he can’t even do that? If it’s so hard to hire qualified people who have actually done well within their roles recently? I mean, what else is there? 
 

One reason I respect you, though I disagree with the vast majority of your opinions lol, is that you attempt to defend everyone in the building (except you didn’t with Kirk which was disappointing, but I digress). You don’t use your defense of Dan and Bruce as a means to target others. That’s what drives me the craziest. 
 

There are three types of fans now, those like you who defend everyone; those who hate on everyone and everything; and then the ones who are the worst in my eyes... the ones who defend ownership/executives while trashing everyone else in the process. 
 

We’ve got too many fans who see themselves as fan police and call out others for being “negative” when directing their ire (and rightly so) at the men at the top, but then as soon as the season starts those same fans are nitpicking every coaching decision, every player mistake, every whatever to death and rage about it all. Somehow that’s not negative though and there’s no policing that occurs there?
 

Somehow the ones who recognize that everyone is affected by the FO and can’t do their jobs at a high enough level are the negative ones? The ones who attempt to recognize who among those in the building are actually productive assets and empathize with them or defend them instead of just flailing wildly at everyone without any idea about just how the environment factors into everything? 

 

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