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The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

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8 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

It’s unlikely, but it’s amazing what money can do.  And I’ve heard Dan himself is very persuasive. 

 

So you never know.  Though you’re probably right. 

 

One of the million reasons why I want Bruce gone is some say he's influenced Dan to become cheap.   We've gone from Dan taking some heat (I recall the articles back then) for giving Gregg Williams almost head coach type money to stay on as a coordinator to being outbid by another team for their own in house assistant coach and hearing how they hate having any dead money in terms of coaches and that was part of the charm of bringing Haz back.    And then there was the JLC report which I've mentioned about how people don't want to go there in part because the money isn't good.  for Dan's faults, I never thought I'd see something like that. 

 

I am not saying I know if Dan has gone from a pile on the cash guy to being a cheapskate but I can't rule it out.  

 

Edit:  The more I digest things the more I think we all are spinning our wheels.  Granted things can change as circumstances change.  But my best guess now is O'Connell is the next HC.  Jay is gone.  Bruce is back.  

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Dan's other business ventures haven't gone well, and poor attendance hurts his ancillary revenue. Maybe he's not as flush as we think.

 

That, or maybe he just doesn't care as much anymore. He doesn't have to care to keep getting those nice fat revenue-sharing checks.

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Just now, profusion said:

Dan's other business ventures haven't gone well, and poor attendance hurts his ancillary revenue. Maybe he's not as flush as we think.

 

That, or maybe he just doesn't care as much anymore. He doesn't have to care to keep getting those nice fat revenue-sharing checks.

I dont think he cares anymore hes just tired of spending 100s of millions on players that never panned out so he has bruce budgeting for the team to be as cheap as possible but get as many seats filled as he can by keeping the hype train up...

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45 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'll start with there is no way to know one way or another.     So it's either purely guessing or relying on bits and nuggets from reporters who poke around with their sources at the FO.  Sure, it's logical that Jay is frustrated by the injuries.  It's also logical (especially since some who cover the team have said so) that he's worn down by the FO.   There could be multiple reasons for anybody's frustration. 

 

45 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The idea that the premise that exists one year feels the same years later -- I get the logic of it but human nature doesn't always operate that way.  I've never been divorced but I have friends who are.  In those cases, it's not like there was no friction early in the marriage.  Instead, they either thought they can work it out, it would dissipate, or just the nature of it just piling up over time made it feel worse. 

 

What I said was that Jay Gruden knew what this FO was when he signed the extension.  You can extract parts out of what I am saying and that is perfectly fine.  Since I have repeated myself in multiple posts in this thread I think I am saying the same thing.

 

 Jay knew what he was in when he took the extension.  The **** show has been clear for years.  I believe, based upon everything I have read, and yes, of course it is media bias/ speculation but also what Jay himself said, he believed he had the players this year to win.  He really thought the D would be special.   He was even looking forward to THIS season but similar circus show stuff happened again.   Like theTrent mess.   Then we go into the old familiar last couple years of injuries.  Down goes Foster in OTA's, Reed who was excited about coming back healthy out with another concussion, and then he loses Guice, who is fast, and  has good hands as a pass catcher.  he was looking forward to a faster up temp offense.  Then more injuries.  Dunbar and Moreau, and Allen, one of his leaders. 

 

 Plus never forget McCoy who I truly believe he wanted to start. 

 

So here is my logic - he is NOW fed up following this new rash of injuries.  

 

I do not believe it has anything to do with the FO. Hey people can believe what they want. It is a message board. 

 

  What has happened with the FO in March 2017 when he signed the continuation?   The SM thing went down the week he signed the extension and Kirk Cousin's contact was going south. He knew he would probably lose him. But crazy as it may sound he truly believed McCoy could run his offense regardless of how injury prone he was.

 

Yes NOW?  He is probably ready to move on.  

 

45 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

To me that's perfectly logically with Jay.   If people want to say he took the money anyway so he made that bed -- fine, I get that.  Give me 10 million dollars and I'll deal with all the dysfunction you can throw at me. .  😀  Having said that it makes perfect sense that someone can wear you down after a longer sample size than earlier in the ball game.   Also different people have different breaking points.  Some people are high strung and are easily set off.  Some people are more laid back and it takes longer to find that breaking point. 

 

The picture some are painting is that Jay is wearing down some from the FO stuff.  I can relate from my own example (apples to oranges to this obviously) where yeah I got more tired of crazy office politics the longer I dealt with it.  It didn't feel exactly the same at every turn.   4 incidents of something didn't feel the same as 8 incidents of it. 

 

 I get what your saying about the $10 mil.  Jay had made a lot of money on his original contract. Point being he did not have to resign. He would probably even get hired by another team.  My main point is that is ludicrous to think he did not know the dynamics of this FO when he signed the extension

 

And more importantly I think he truly believed he could get the team over the hump given continuity.  However Injuries this year and the last two years may have finally derailed that belief.   So I am not saying he is not tired of it all. I just do not think it is the FO.

 

I don't want to get into the Shanny thing.  There were a lot of moving parts there.  I think he made some serious blunders and we may never really know the truth.  But the fact remains he was making the circuit there for awhile and was never picked up as a HC again.

 

 

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34 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

 

 I get what your saying about the $10 mil.  Jay had made a lot of money on his original contract. Point being he did not have to resign. He would probably even get hired by another team.  My main point is that is ludicrous to think he did not know the dynamics of this FO when he signed the extension

 

And more importantly I think he truly believed he could get the team over the hump given continuity.  However Injuries this year and the last two years may have finally derailed that belief.   So I am not saying he is not tired of it all. I just do not think it is the FO.

 

I don't want to get into the Shanny thing.  There were a lot of moving parts there.  I think he made some serious blunders and we may never really know the truth.  But the fact remains he was making the circuit there for awhile and was never picked up as a HC again.

 

 

 

The most direct way for me to explain my thoughts:

 

1.  The idea that he didn't know the dynamics of the FO --who is arguing that?  The argument at least for me is the dynamics of any dysfunctional situation can feel different over time, it can wear on you over time and it can be amped up and change.  People have different breaking points and different ways to process stuff.   You can't always predict your emotions from one hour to the next let alone one year out in advance or whatever. 

 

2.  There can be multiple reasons for someone to be dissatisfied.  It doesn't have to be one versus another, it could be both, heck it could be 4 or 5 reasons.  There are people who have talked about the FO especially Russell who have nailed previous things.  So when he and others say the same thing -- it increases the odds at least in my mind that they may be on to something.

 

I am not saying you are on the opposite side of these points.  But I am explaining my logic.  😀  I don't though see the relevance of this discussion to anything aside from how does the next prospective head coach look at this job?  Jay's decisions and emotions, etc I don't see how they lead to any bottom line unless i am missing something?  I think the dude is dead man walking.  I'd be shocked if he's back. 

 

 

on another note:

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The most direct way for me to explain my thoughts:

 

1.  The idea that he didn't know the dynamics of the FO --who is arguing that?  The argument at least for me is the dynamics of any dysfunctional situation can feel different over time, it can wear on you over time and it can be amped up and change.  People have different breaking points and different ways to process stuff.   You can't always predict your emotions from one hour to the next let alone one year out in advance or whatever. 

 People can change but it takes a lot of introspection, and a lot of conceding that things aren't going the right way.  There has never been any indication with regards to this FO that they can change. It is the same story slightly different plot. 

 

  So what do you think the breaking point was since you are bringing it up?  I get no one walks out on guaranteed contract and leaves money on the table.  But after he witnessed the craziness of the SM debacle and then the Kirk Cousin's contact negotiation going no where, it has nothing to do with a mere predicting of emotions from one hour to the next.  He had time to contemplate and catch his breath - it was March 2017 - part of the offseason.  He knew what the dynamics of the FO was - I never said he did not know.  Of course he knew.  He signed anyway. Plus this is not an overreactive guy. He thought about it. He most certainly did.  And he signed.

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

2.  There can be multiple reasons for any reason that someone is dissatisfied.  It doesn't have to one versus another, it could be both, heck it could be 4 or 5 reasons.  There are people who have talked about the FO especially Russell who have nailed previous things.  So when he and others say the same thing -- it increases the odds at least in my mind that they may be on to something.

I think if you come into the season seemingly excited which he did, and then experience a similar rash of injuries, and it has been the same now, three years running, chances are you have reached that "breaking point" you brought up.

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am not saying you are on the opposite side of these points.  But I am explaining my logic.  😀  I don't though see the relevance of this discussion to anything aside from how does the next prospective head coach look at this job?  Jay's decisions and emotions, etc I don't see how they lead to any bottom line unless i am missing something?  I think the dude is dead man walking.  I'd be shocked if he's back. 

I am fine with that man. I understand your logic.   Of course he is a "dead man walking" because Snyder is ready to do what he always does - reboot.  It does not work.  Unless you have healthy football players out there, a good D coordinator that players trust, ditto with all your position it will continue to be Groundhog Day.

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

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Injuries aren't some fluke thing; there's a pattern. This is professional football, bad/good luck is a measure of how well run and how well built your team is.

 

Generally speaking, injured = not good football player. 

 

E.g.

Josh Doctson is not a good football player. He's what.... 4th or 5th WR on the Vikings now? Whatever that injury, whatever is wrong with his feet/achilles.... it adds up to barely scratching an NFL roster. Talent means jack if you're always injured.

 

 

There are exceptions.... but they are rare.

 

Jon Allen might be an exception but atm he's missed half his games as a pro. That means he's not good. If you have to say things like, at full strength, or when healthy.... thats not a pro football player. You're either playing or not.

 

Fletcher Cox for example is always injured, always has corrective whatever surgery in the offseason and has missed only a handful of games in his career, which is why he's All-Pro.

 

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31 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

 People can change but it takes a lot of introspection, and a lot of conceding that things aren't going the right way.  There has never been any indication with regards to this FO that they can change. It is the same story slightly different plot. 

 

  So what do you think the breaking point was since you are bringing it up?  I get no one walks out on guaranteed contract and leaves money on the table.  But after he witnessed the craziness of the SM debacle and then the Kirk Cousin's contact negotiation going no where, it has nothing to do with a mere predicting of emotions from one hour to the next.

 

 I am not saying I know if and when Jay had a breaking point.  You got me.  I was just saying there is some logic to it that resentment-stress levels can build over time versus being some constant year to year.   And I bet the injuries bother him, too.   If I had to guess if he did have a breaking point, I'd guess it was FA.  This is the 2nd year in a row where I heard Jay was frustrated with FA.  I'll just use one example.  We've heard Jay bemoan publicly that this team needs a multi dimensional TE because their TEs right now telegraph run-pass.  Did we end up getting a multi-dimensional TE?  Nope. 

 

Over the years in drips and drabs stuff would come out like he wanted Desean back and they disagreed with him.  We've heard things about him disagreeing with some draft choices.   We got no idea what happened with the Gregg Williams, Bowles interviews at the beginning of the year and Jay's part or non part in that?  We've heard some guys who cover the team say Dan has stayed mostly in his cage in recent years but this off season he was out of his cage.   We've heard that Jay and Kyle are a faction in that FO versus another faction.     We've heard multiple beat guys say there are some behind the scenes stuff going on that they can't talk about it just, yet.  Is there something in that mix?  Maybe.

 

And like I said in another post in all likelihood some of the rumor-gossip stuff isn't true, some might be hyperbole, and some likely is true.  But there is plenty of noise that give me the vibe that yeah it would be perfectly logically that the dysfunction has been amped up this off season.  And heck like I've been saying let's say the level of crap is exactly the same every year, nothing amped up now -- it's perfectly logical to me that the more you get hit by the same crap the more likely it can wear you down.

 

I don't know if the Kirk situation was the breaking point for him or the Scot situation.  That set some of us off.  But we don't know if it set off Jay.  We got some evidence if anything to the contrary.  With Kirk some said Jay was tired of it in 2017 and was ready to move on.  And thought they could succeed with Colt.  With Scot, Scot created some of his own antics.   And then again maybe Jay was set off by that.  I am not suggesting I know.  I am simply suggesting it's perfectly reasonable to assume that dysfunction can have different levels and dysfunction can wear you down with repetition.  And I don't see how we can say with any certainty that Jay's utmost height of frustration was Kirk and Scot.    Those subjects are hot buttons here.   Not sure if they were with Jay, though.   

 

It might seem foreign to some here because I can get as heated as anyone debating sports 😀 -- but I see it all in fun.  But on a personal basis, I am somewhat like Jay in that I am laid back.  Some of my relatives joke that they never see me mad and wonder if it is even possible for me to get mad.  But the people am close with especially my wife have seen me from time to time really mad.  I just have a long trigger.  I tend to give people a lot of slack.   I got friends though who are set off on the slightest things.    For me you got to wear me down with thing after thing and then finally I do snap.  So it's not hard for me to identify with the concept that let's say 15 cuts feel totally different than 9 cuts.  I can also identify with the idea that you can't really project your emotions in advance.  I got to feel the 15 cuts before I organically get mad.    Some people roll that way, some people don't.  

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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So Bruce sold his house for a loss?

 

He should have held on to it for a couple more years and then given it away for free, like he does with  Redskins players.

 

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Has Allen reached the same level of inneptitude as Vinny did before he was fired?  I need perspective from other fans... my gut says not yet??

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9 minutes ago, DiscoBob said:

Has Allen reached the same level of inneptitude as Vinny did before he was fired?  I need perspective from other fans... my gut says not yet??

No but he is still hurting the long term prospects of the team. What separates them is talent acquisition (current team generally chooses/acquires better talent than Vinny's teams did). He definitely is as bad if not worse at managing the players already on the team.

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20 minutes ago, DiscoBob said:

Has Allen reached the same level of inneptitude as Vinny did before he was fired?  I need perspective from other fans... my gut says not yet??

 

He's worse because you knew Day 1 the guy wasn't even qualified to be anything other than a front for Dan to hide behind and pretend to be not involved at all.

 

Lombardi even brings up recently that he wasn't involved with personnel with the Raiders. Back in the day Al Davis made a joke about Bruce winning executive of the year because he really didn't do àny of the GM duties. He was an OB with a title.

 

 

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1 hour ago, DiscoBob said:

Has Allen reached the same level of inneptitude as Vinny did before he was fired?  I need perspective from other fans... my gut says not yet??

I would say no just because he lets competent people run the draft room (for now).

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2 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

I would say no just because he lets competent people run the draft room (for now).

 

Valid point, they each seemed to have extraordinarily sucky skills in a specific arena.  If you put together Vinny drafting with Bruce personal decisions.... Singularity of Suckitude.

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19 hours ago, DiscoBob said:

Has Allen reached the same level of inneptitude as Vinny did before he was fired?  I need perspective from other fans... my gut says not yet??

 

Interesting to think about.  

 

The tale of the tape:

 

Vinny (10 years at the helm)

W-L record: 72-88

Primary starting QBs: Johnson, Ramsey, Brunell, Campbell

Best FA/trade personnel acquisitions: signing London Fletcher, trading Coles for Santana Moss

Best draft picks: Champ Bailey, Jon Jansen, Lavar Artington, and Chris Samuels in consecutive years. Sean Taylor.

Head coaches: 5

Best head coach: Gibbs

Seasons with team in top 5 on offense or defense: 5

Single worst personnel move: Too close to call.

 

Bruce (10 years at the helm)

W-L record: 59-86

Primary starting QBs: McNabb, Grossman, RG3, Cousins, Smith

Best FA/trade personnel acquisitions: signing DJax, Garcon, Vernon Davis, Adrian Peterson

Best draft picks: Trent Williams, Brandon Scherff, Ryan Kerrigan, Jon Allen

Head coaches: 2

Best head coach: Gruden

Seasons with team in top 5 on offense or defense: 2

Single worst personnel move: The Kirk Cousins fiasco.  Because of the ripple effect across the organization.

 

Now, this is not taking into account the nuances of shifting responsibilities or delving into who was responsible for which draft pick or FA move (Snyder, ScotM, Gruden, Shanahan, etc), Snyder interference, etc.  So credit/blame isnt really cut and dried like this.  Dont jump down my throat over who was REALLY responsible for X, Y, and Z. This is just for fun.

Edited by justice98
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5 minutes ago, HigSkin said:
This about says it all...
 
Graphs edited out


First graph I have a question. Were those the only 5 choices given or was it an open question where any HC could be entered? My thoughts are that if those 5 were the only choices it is at least a bit skewed to select Jay. But if it were an open question and those were the top 5, then it's even more telling. Of course, they are all still just opinions. 

 

Second graph is indeed pretty telling. But should not be a surprise to anyone. And in fairness, you could see that same graph for any 0-2 team, and even more so for long time losing teams. Not defending the team but it seems HH are trying to get the data to support their narrative instead of read the data.  But maybe that's just me. 

 

Not directed at you @HigSkin -  just continuing with my own thoughts: 

 

I am a bigger fan of Jay than most but have no problem moving on. I just want it to include what I see as a bigger problem in Bruce. My worst case scenario is Jay gets fired and bruce gets a new lease on life with a new HC he chooses. Then we are stuck with that POS for at least another 2 to 3 yrs. 

 

And please save the "Who will be better that will come here?' question. I don't know and quite frankly I don't ****ing care! I know Bruce is not only incompetent he a POS as a person. You have to think that the odds will catch up to dan and sooner or later he will get the right person - may be more luck than anything else but maybe we can at least get someone with some integrity if not someone capable. 

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3 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

I am a bigger fan of Jay than most but have no problem moving on. I just want it to include what I see as a bigger problem in Bruce. My worst case scenario is Jay gets fired and bruce gets a new lease on life with a new HC he chooses. Then we are stuck with that POS for at least another 2 to 3 yrs. 

 

And please save the "Who will be better that will come here?' question. I don't know and quite frankly I don't ****ing care! I know Bruce is not only incompetent he a POS as a person. You have to think that the odds will catch up to dan and sooner or later he will get the right person - may be more luck than anything else but maybe we can at least get someone with some integrity if not someone capable. 

 

I'm actually a big fan of Jay and agree, Bruce has got to go with hopefully Kyle Smith plugged in and let him pick his next HC

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22 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I am a bigger fan of Jay than most but have no problem moving on. I just want it to include what I see as a bigger problem in Bruce. My worst case scenario is Jay gets fired and bruce gets a new lease on life with a new HC he chooses. Then we are stuck with that POS for at least another 2 to 3 yrs. 

 

I'm in firm agreement with you on this.  The only place we differ is on how long we might be stuck with Bruce for.  I gather we will be stuck with him until he decides we're not.  It said a lot to me when on the heels of #FireBruceAllen, Dan doubled down and gave Bruce more power, while letting go the positive voice he had just hired.  I don't believe Bruce feels he's in win-now mode to avoid termination, he's in win-now mode because he's embarrassed and hates looking like the fool he is.  If the season goes the direction it appears it's heading, I believe Jay will be terminated and Bruce will get another opportunity to hire a coach.  Our absolute best bet there is that it's KOC, because he's already here and won't get that opportunity elsewhere this soon.  If Bruce actually looks outside of Ashburn for Jay's replacement, god help us.

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4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I'm in firm agreement with you on this.  The only place we differ is on how long we might be stuck with Bruce for.  I gather we will be stuck with him until he decides we're not.  It said a lot to me when on the heels of #FireBruceAllen, Dan doubled down and gave Bruce more power, while letting go the positive voice he had just hired.  I don't believe Bruce feels he's in win-now mode to avoid termination, he's in win-now mode because he's embarrassed and hates looking like the fool he is.  If the season goes the direction it appears it's heading, I believe Jay will be terminated and Bruce will get another opportunity to hire a coach.  Our absolute best bet there is that it's KOC, because he's already here and won't get that opportunity elsewhere this soon.  If Bruce actually looks outside of Ashburn for Jay's replacement, god help us.

 

Agreed about timing. That's why I said at least. I am holding out hope that there is some time limit of his free pass. But probably not. We will see. 

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1 minute ago, goskins10 said:

 

Agreed about timing. That's why I said at least. I am holding out hope that there is some time limit of his free pass. But probably not. We will see. 

What I'm afraid of is that the anger continues to spawn into apathy among the fan base to the point that nobody will care enough to publicly pressure change anymore.

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Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

Just saw Tony Wylie is leaving for another job. Interesting.

Interesting as in, who the hell would hire Tony Wylie.

 

Breaking news: Bruce Allen has been appointed to lead the Redskins PR department, in addition to his roles as chief pants director, harvest fest organizer, off the field winning leader, chief trade officer, business operations manager, general manager and Dan's ball tickler.

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