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The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

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2 hours ago, KillBill26 said:

I don't understand using the argument that "Houston overpaid" (I know you wrote Miami, but i know what you mean)  I agree, they absolutely overpaid.  But that doesn't mean they couldn't have overpaid us, and that doesn't mean another team won't overpay us when they are desparate for a LT.  It all comes down to: first, are the Redskins going to be willing to part with Trent in a move that may be weakening the short term for a long term gain.  And second, if they decide they are willing to trade him, can Bruce actually get maximum value.  He does not have a track record of getting value in trades.  Andy Reid does.  Belichick does.  BA doesn't. 

 

But the fact that Houston overpaid is not a valid argument as to why the Redskins can't secure just as nice of a haul for Trent from someone else.  Lack of another opportunity where everything aligns just right, that's a valid point against it. Trent's age, injury and suspension history, those are valid points as to why tunsil potentially carries more value thant Trent in a trade.  But another team may very well overpay again, especially now that the tunsil trade can be a reflection of what the market dictates the going rate for a quality LT is, even if the world knows houston overpaid.   If I'm trying to negotiate a home purchase, I can't dismiss the comps by just saying, "yeah well they all overpaid".  

 

Just to be clear, as someone who has been saying for weeks that the Redskins needed to trade Trent to the highest bidder, I am very disappointed the Redskins sat on their hands and let Miami collect all those draft picks.  I do think we missed the boat and I don't think we are going to get an offer of that magnitude, but that has more to do with Houston being the perfect trade partner at the perfect time, and a lack of a situation as promising as that elsewhere, not the fact that a prior deal should be dismissed as overpaying.  The going rate is the going rate, and a potential opportunity to sell high needs to be pounced on.

 

I feel the same people who dismiss that trade as Houston overpaying are the same people that said "tunsil and stills would never return two firsts and a second.". Well, it happened.

Definitely feels like Allen screwed the proverbial pooch once again by refusing to trade Trent. While no-one can say for sure... i highly doubt Miami did not checkin with Skins to see what Trents value is, even if just to gauge Tunsil's value. This jackass will end up loosing Williams for a 3rd comp pick to complete his circle of sh!tetude!

Edited by oraphus
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@KillBill26

 

I think you misread me. I agree with you. Saying Houston (lol) overpaid was more just saying that I think they’re insane. But I highly doubt that same offer was on the table for the Skins. Having said that, I’m curious what their offer was to the Skins... because while I’m sure it wasn’t that... I bet it was overpaying and I wish we listened.

Edited by KDawg
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23 minutes ago, KDawg said:

@KillBill26

 

I think you misread me. I agree with you. Saying Houston (lol) overpaid was more just saying that I think they’re insane. But I highly doubt that same offer was on the table for the Skins. Having said that, I’m curious what their offer was to the Skins... because while I’m sure it wasn’t that... I better it was overpaying and I wish we listened.

Agreed 100%.  Huge missed opportunity.  The kind that turn franchises around.

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I think we all remember when the Redskins were #1 on that list and it was the Patriots at #2 and it wasn't even close.

 

I'm actually surprised that they are still that high.

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20 hours ago, sportjunkie07 said:

I disagree. The injuries are something to consider but I think they are relatively unimportant. Trents had no one of value near him since he was drafted. When you overextend yourself it wears on you. I think he'll be play late in his his career and at a high level as most elite tackles do.

 

Trent Williams is the guy you want if your team is making a playoff push. He does things no other tackle in the NFL can do. That alone has massive value. Every single team in the NFL would be better if trent was on their roster.

 

The bidding starts at a 1st imo, and could potentially vary upward massively. 

 

It is pretty clear to me that Bruce wasn't going to trade trent as there were clearly teams interested. 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure there were offers but what were they? I doubt multiple high draft picks. I seriously doubt that. 

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25 minutes ago, Alexa said:

I'm sure there were offers but what were they? I doubt multiple high draft picks. I seriously doubt that. 

 

Did you think Tunsil would get 2 firsts? He's not even very good and supposedly lazy. You know the WR wasn't worth anything considering what the Steelers got for AB.

 

Dan and Bruce were probably offered similar and being hardheaded refused. I'm not going to imagine competence when all I've ever seen is the opposite.

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20 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Did you think Tunsil would get 2 firsts? He's not even very good and supposedly lazy. You know the WR wasn't worth anything considering what the Steelers got for AB.

 

Dan and Bruce were probably offered similar and being hardheaded refused. I'm not going to imagine competence when all I've ever seen is the opposite.

 

Is he not? I honestly don't know, but ive seen most places ranking him top 15 OT...

 

https://athlonsports.com/nfl/nfl-offensive-linemen-rankings

 

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I think football trades are weird, because a player almost always has far more value to the team he is with than to the team he is going to. Trent Williams is probably one of our four most important players. That's based on talent, position, experience, money, and so forth. To any other team in the league, he's just a cost to be worked into an overall salary cap and then someone who has to learn his job. That immediately makes him far less valuable.

 

The same was true for Brown. To the Steelers, he was the best receiver they ever had. To the Raiders, he was this head case who had never dealt with Gruden and was probably going to murder Carr the first time he was overthrown.

 

This is why every fanbase that receives a player believes they have overpaid and every fan base that trades a player thinks they just gave their guy away.

 

Honestly, because of the salary cap, every NFL payer is basically seen as a liability. No one is ever worth the money they are paid according to the fans, and every player is underpaid according to the players.

 

It's not like baseball or basketball where everyone's value is pretty evident and you are just measuring their value versus their salary. It's basically the same for every team. (In baseball, the obvious issue is low revenue clubs versus high revenue clubs but even that is changing).

 

Eventually, this whole system is going to collapse in the NFL. It's untenable for management/the fans to think every player is overpaid and for the players to feel the exact opposite. It's the reason that no team has any "upper middle class" stars. Those guys who are not quite an all-pro but who have played for you for six years and are pretty good. You can only justify huge money on obvious stars and everyone else needs to be on a rookie contract.

Edited by Lombardi's_kid_brother
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16 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

I think we all remember when the Redskins were #1 on that list and it was the Patriots at #2 and it wasn't even close.

 

I'm actually surprised that they are still that high.

 

I don't remember that lol...

 

I remember the Cowboys being #1 and the Skins being #2, and then everyone else. I don't remember the Cowboys being behind both the Skins and the Patriots.

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2 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Did you think Tunsil would get 2 firsts? He's not even very good and supposedly lazy. You know the WR wasn't worth anything considering what the Steelers got for AB.

 

Dan and Bruce were probably offered similar and being hardheaded refused. I'm not going to imagine competence when all I've ever seen is the opposite.

 

Pure speculation.

 

As the NFL continues to be more aggressive with trading in the off season, it’s clear a defined spectrum of value is not present in the market. Kind of operating like the wild Wild West in terms of value and compensation. 

 

With that said, it seems very clear that a players contract situation is paramount when assigning value. 

 

The Texans traded for Tunsil, who has two years left on a rookie deal that pays him 12.5 million over next two seasons (extreme value—the Dolphins front loaded his deal considerably). Trents contract as is pays him 23mil in base salary (as we know, with Keenum situation, the Skins could elect to split bonus money increasing the contract more). I think it’s agreed by most that Trent would require a new deal competitive with top paid LTs. 

 

Money and teams current cap situation plays a significant role, almost of equal value of the player themselves. 

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@Lombardi's_kid_brotherSo do you think the NFL should move towards salary arbitration like MLB has?  play on a rookie deal for 3 years and then are eligible for salary arbitration for the next 2 to 3 years (and make there salary guaranteed) and then they qualify for full fledged free agent after 5 -6 years.     

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20 hours ago, KillBill26 said:

Agreed 100%.  Huge missed opportunity.  The kind that turn franchises around.

 

Huge missed opportunity but not surprising, as we have the weakest and most insecure GM in the league.   A real, competent, secure front office would absolutely grab the opportunity here to flip an aging and unhappy but valuable player for multiple high draft picks.  Instead, we've got Bruce Allen trying to convince Snyder that "we're close," that even though things are ugly on the field and in the stands, "we're close."  Can't go trading our starting LT when "we're close."  Can't fire me because I'm gonna get the stadium deal and, also, "we're close."   Brutal.  It's missing stuff like this, opportunities to reload presented on a silver platter, that has made us so devastatingly mediocre over the last 20 years.  

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7 minutes ago, Coach Janky Spanky said:

 

Huge missed opportunity but not surprising, as we have the weakest and most insecure GM in the league.   A real, competent, secure front office would absolutely grab the opportunity here to flip an aging and unhappy but valuable player for multiple high draft picks.  Instead, we've got Bruce Allen trying to convince Snyder that "we're close," that even though things are ugly on the field and in the stands, "we're close."  Can't go trading our starting LT when "we're close."  Can't fire me because I'm gonna get the stadium deal and, also, "we're close."   Brutal.  It's missing stuff like this, opportunities to reload presented on a silver platter, that has made us so devastatingly mediocre over the last 20 years.  

 

In many ways, Allen benefits from NOT being able to fix these things.

 

"Well Dan, this would have been the year...we had the QB who led the Vikings to 13-3, a great defense, and Guice back. But Trent held out and that's something we can't control. Next year is ours, my man!"

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3 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

I don't remember that lol...

 

I remember the Cowboys being #1 and the Skins being #2, and then everyone else. I don't remember the Cowboys being behind both the Skins and the Patriots.

 

Memory failure:

 

Some year the Pats were #2 but all I can find so far shows the Redskins clearly #1 with the Turds #2.

 

https://www.forbes.com/forbes/2003/0915/nfl.html

 

 

https://www.forbes.com/lists/2005/30/Rank_1.html

 

Ah, there it is:

 

https://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_NFL-Team-Valuations_Rank.html


See how far ahead the Redskins were? About 250M higher or about 20%-25%

 

Edited by SkinsFTW
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5 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Memory failure:

 

Some year the Pats were #2 but all I can find so far shows the Redskins clearly #1 with the Turds #2.

 

https://www.forbes.com/forbes/2003/0915/nfl.html

 

 

https://www.forbes.com/lists/2005/30/Rank_1.html

 

Ah, there it is:

 

https://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_NFL-Team-Valuations_Rank.html


See how far ahead the Redskins were? About 250M higher or about 20%-25%

 

 

I'll take your word for it because the links are hanging on me for some reasons (not that I was thinking you were lying, for the record lol)...where did the Cowboys land on that last link? #3?

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Yeah the links work but take forever to open for me too. Yeah Dallas was 3rd.

 


NFL Team Valuations
08.31.06, 6:00 PM ET

 

 

 
Rank Team Current Value ($mil) 1-Yr Value Change (%) Debt/Value (%) Revenue ($mil) Operating Income ($mil)
1 Washington Redskins 1,423 13 17 303 108.4
2 New England Patriots 1,176 13 26 250 43.6
3 Dallas Cowboys 1,173 10 17 235 37.1
4 Houston Texans 1,043 10 29 222 57.6
5 Philadelphia Eagles 1,024 8 32 218 54.2
6 Denver Broncos 975 7 21 207 26.9
7 Cleveland Browns 970 9 10 206 47.1
8 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 955 9 15 203 56.9
9 Baltimore Ravens 946 9 29 201 27.8
10 Chicago Bears 945 9 20 201 51.5
11 Carolina Panthers 936 7 13 199 20.7
12 Miami Dolphins 912 7 27 194 33.4
13 Green Bay Packers 911 7 5 194 22.3
14 Kansas City Chiefs 894 17 15 186 28.2
15 New York Giants 890 10 7 182 26.9
16 Seattle Seahawks 888 8 13 189 5.0
 
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17 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

In many ways, Allen benefits from NOT being able to fix these things.

 

"Well Dan, this would have been the year...we had the QB who led the Vikings to 13-3, a great defense, and Guice back. But Trent held out and that's something we can't control. Next year is ours, my man!"

 

Yep and we are sooooo close to the stadium.  Bruce said recently that it would be about a year before they announce that.   The stadium is become fascinating to me because I don't see how they pull it off with the given set up unless the WP among others are misinformed about how they are handling it.    My guess is if they stick to this given course they'd need to do what the Giants-Jets did and that is build a stadium feet away from the old stadium.  I don't see how the other locations come together, maybe DC if Bowser takes charge and proactively works it on her end to help.   

 

If I were Dan and I couldn't get enough of my friendship and enjoy being charmed by Bruce -- and I mean this with no sarcasm -- then make him head of business and the stadium and put someone else in charge of personnel.  It would be a win win for him.  It wouldn't jeopardize his friendship with Bruce, he'd still be at Redskins Park to pal around with and have drinks.  Yet, he'd get a PR buzz of having a real personnel guy in charge of personnel. 

 

Part of my point here is I am starting to think anyway this is the most likely scenario if Bruce gets dislodged from personnel - which is that he wouldn't leave completely but be reassigned.  For my taste that's fine.  I don't want him running personnel but if he is charge of the stadium/business I am Ok with that.    I've not heard anyone else say this but Russell so I take it with a grain of salt but he said months back that he was told that with Dan that Bruce has a job for life and there is a chance someday he's reassigned but no chance Dan would ever fire him.  So either Bruce would quit or reassigned if Russell is right.  I recall some other beat guy (forgetting whom) last off season said they were told Bruce's thinking is he wants to ride off the sunset and then he'd leave on a high.  A big season-- maybe the stadium secure.    And that Bruce is conscious of his reputation with fans and would prefer to leave on and I told you so note.   You got me if this is true.  Neither was a report but just radio-beat guys sharing gossip. 

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6 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

 

You will never see the Redskins do anything like this because Dan and Bruce’s audience are old geezers.

Tony Kahn's AEW has already done this for PPVs along with 12-15ish NFL stadiums. 

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23 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

In many ways, Allen benefits from NOT being able to fix these things.

 

"Well Dan, this would have been the year...we had the QB who led the Vikings to 13-3, a great defense, and Guice back. But Trent held out and that's something we can't control. Next year is ours, my man!"

And sadly from what it sounds like, this is 100% a believable scenario rather than something wildly sarcastic.

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Dan and Bruce are going to have to sell a helluva lot of stale peanuts to get on top again, some winning on the field in addition to his continuous off the field winning would help. 

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4 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

Dan and Bruce are going to have to sell a helluva lot of stale peanuts to get on top again, some winning on the field in addition to his continuous off the field winning would help. 

 

I don't see how this organization gets on top of that list again. I also don't really know that it matters. If they truly are valued around 3.1 or 3.2B, it means that the value has quadrupled since Snyder bought the team. Owning a NFL franchise is like printing money. 

 

 

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