Makaveli

The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

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3 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

I'm just thinking of how different the NFL is just from the 80s to now...whole different ball game..way to much money and greed involved... I loved how the NFL was a hobby in the day not a job or fashion show or let's see who can make the most money.

Just like this:

 

 

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I got Lombardi's book.  Walsh's point is most teams get in their own way, there are only some that have it together year in and year out.  I'd hazard a guess that Walsh wouldn't lose sleep over the Redskins.

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That stat is a bit misleading--Dallas had 12 and 13 win seasons bookending a 4 win job. Philly had back to back 7 win seasons.

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1 hour ago, Riggo#44 said:

That stat is a bit misleading--Dallas had 12 and 13 win seasons bookending a 4 win job. Philly had back to back 7 win seasons.

 

Well that also says a lot about other teams in fact. They aren't even able to do that on a consistent basis. Most teams are often one year wonder finally. We're glad when we're 7-9/9-7 thinking we are close when those records are Philly's floor...

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2000

2000 NFL NFC East 3rd 8 8 0   Norv Turner (7–6) 
Terry Robiskie(1–2)
2001 2001 NFL NFC East 2nd 8 8 0   Marty Schottenheimer
2002 2002 NFL NFC East 3rd 7 9 0   Steve Spurrier
2003 2003 NFL NFC East 3rd 5 11 0  
2004 2004 NFL NFC East 4th 6 10 0   Joe Gibbs
2005 2005 NFL NFC East 2nd 10 6 0 Won Wild Card Playoffs (at Buccaneers) 17–10
Lost Divisional Playoffs (at Seahawks) 10–20
 
2006 2006 NFL NFC East 4th 5 11 0  
2007 2007 NFL NFC East 3rd 9 7 0 Lost Wild Card Playoffs (at Seahawks) 14–35  
2008 2008 NFL NFC East 4th 8 8 0   Jim Zorn
2009 2009 NFL NFC East 4th 4 12 0  
2010 2010 NFL NFC East 4th 6 10 0   Mike Shanahan
2011 2011 NFL NFC East 4th 5 11 0  
2012 2012 NFL NFC East 1st 10 6 0 Lost Wild Card Playoffs(Seahawks) 14–24 Robert Griffin III(OROY)
2013 2013 NFL NFC East 4th 3 13 0  
2014 2014 NFL NFC East 4th 4 12 0   Jay Gruden
2015 2015 NFL NFC East 1st 9 7 0 Lost Wild Card Playoffs(Packers) 18–35  
2016 2016 NFL NFC East 3rd 8 7 1  
2017 2017 NFL NFC East 3rd 7 9 0  
2018 2018 NFL NFC East 3rd 7 9

0

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Sorry, when I look at the Skins record, and consider the shape they're in today...  I don't think anyone really considers Washington as a dangerous team to block a teams progress to the NFC Championship, much less the Super Bowl.  The franchise has been decidedly mediocre in the 21st century.

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19 hours ago, Andre The Giant said:

Skins deserve credit for their 2019 Comp. Picks.  Always used to wonder why they didn’t use this strategy. Finally coming around. 

Kinda disagree here...

 

Quote

The Patriots lost Danny Amendola, Johnson Bademosi, Malcolm Butler, Cameron Fleming, Dion Lewis and Nate Solder as CFAs, according to the NFL. They signed CFAs Adrian Clayborn and Jeremy Hill.

The Patriots’ extra picks are in the third round (No. 97 overall and No. 101 overall), sixth round (No. 205) and seventh round (No. 252).

Washington received four extra picks for losing Will Compton, Kirk Cousins, Ryan Grant, Spencer Long, Trent Murphy and Niles Paul, while signing Paul Richardson, according to the NFL.

Washington’s extra choices are in the third round (96th overall), fifth round (173rd), sixth round (206th) and seventh round (253rd).

Pats got 2 3rd round picks out of the comp picks.

We only got one out of KC.

 

So we're not that good at it really.

 

And Pats got a trophy as well...

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On 2/23/2019 at 7:56 AM, Andre The Giant said:

Skins deserve credit for their 2019 Comp. Picks.  Always used to wonder why they didn’t use this strategy. Finally coming around. 

 

Normally I'd agree but not this time considering their best pick by far is their 3rd rounder and that was for Kirk.  If Bruce had an ounce of foresight, we'd have at least one first round pick for him in a trade.  So they blew that big time so not much to applaud IMO.  But in general I like the comp pick approach.

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Normally I'd agree but not this time considering their best pick by far is their 3rd rounder and that was for Kirk.  If Bruce had an ounce of foresight, we'd have at least one first round pick for him in a trade.  So they blew that big time so not much to applaud IMO.  But in general I like the comp pick approach.

 

Agree on the Kirk pick, but I’m still happy about the other three. And that they are finally using this strategy. Positive step forward...

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11 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Normally I'd agree but not this time considering their best pick by far is their 3rd rounder and that was for Kirk.  If Bruce had an ounce of foresight, we'd have at least one first round pick for him in a trade.  So they blew that big time so not much to applaud IMO.  But in general I like the comp pick approach.

 

No way was Kirk fetching a 1st round pick. Obviously, completely opinion and no proof can be provided either way. 

 

Skins received 3 others as well as you know. 

Edited by wit33
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10 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

No way was Kirk fetching a 1st round pick. Obviously, completely opinion and no proof can be provided either way. 

 

Skins received 3 others as well as you know. 

 

I know we aren't supposed to be talking about the dude outside of his thread so I'll keep it brief and then switch it back on topic.  To each their own but I think you are wildly off.  IMO there is no way, they wouldn't have got a first rounder AND change let alone they wouldn't get a first.   Yeah Bradford lands a first and change but not him?   I'll just say you are on an island big time on this point and that even includes the straggler Bruce defenders who are left. 

 

Switching gears and back on topic.  On another note as for compensation picks.  They rarely replace the talent of the player who left.  It's more about shredding salary and adding depth, which alas you got to do from time to time in the NFL.   I've seen stats like this before but to me it speaks more about how difficult it is to land talent in the later rounds. A late third is almost really a 4th.  

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/02/25/robert-kraft-prostitution-charges-sex-trafficking-patriots-nfl-combine-dwayne-haskins-kyler-murray?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=themmqb&utm_medium=social

1. The last few years, the idea of compensatory picks as currency has hit the mainstream to the point where some fans are now viewing the ones given at the bottom of the third round—which is as high as they go—as gold. The truth? Well … Here’s the complete list of players to be drafted with those picks in the last four years:

 

• 2015: Geneo Grissom (Patriots), Steve Nelson (Chiefs), Paul Dawson (Bengals)

• 2016: Graham Glasgow (Lions), Vincent Valentine (Patriots), Rees Odhiambo (Seahawks), Justin Simmons (Broncos)

• 2017: Cordrea Tankersley (Dolphins), Chad Williams (Cardinals), Rasul Douglas (Eagles), Jonnu Smith (Titans), Brendan Langley (Broncos), Nazair Jones (Seahawks), Trey Hendrickson (Saints), C.J. Beathard (49ers), James Conner (Steelers), Amara Darboh (Seahawks), Kendall Beckwith (Bucs).

• 2018: Mason Cole (Cardinals), Jordan Akins (Texans), Isaac Yiadom (Texans), Dorian O’Daniel (Chiefs).

… There are good players in that mess of names, of course. But Conner is the only one of the 22 to make a Pro Bowl to this point. In fact, he’s the only one of 34 third-round comp picks to make it this decade. Which is just something to keep in mind, when you’re weighing whether your team should let a player go, and may be thinking, “Well, we’ll just got a good comp pick back anyway.” Remember, those third-rounders are compensation for the most highly paid free agents. (By the way, the best comp pick of all-time probably will always be the 199th pick in the 2000 draft... I’m sure you guys know who that is.)

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Read this article, I think you need a subscription to read it though.  The irony of it is its peppered with praise from Shanny of all people as to Kyle Smith.  A point of the article was Kyle is really good at what he does but the Redskins are keeping him below the radar in part because they might not want to lose him.  Granted, that's a theory from Paulsen and not fact.  But he's not the only dude who has that take who cover the team.   The idea that they could lose Kyle because they might not give him (that's speculation) the GM role because that's not how the Redskins typically roll under Dan -- that to me is an unsurprising  but still infuriating thought.  

 

I hope the reality is a counter theory to that which I also hear from time to time which is they are grooming Kyle to be that guy. It's not that I think Kyle or any personnel guy is some magician who can do no wrong.  But its that the big boy teams mostly work with a big boy operation where the dude who is the defacto guy in charge is a big reputation personnel guy.  Even the Cowboys have turned the page (to a degree) who for years has been clowned around the league -- similar to the Redskins for having an intrusive owner and a FO that isn't functional.   The Cowboys personnel is reportedly mostly run by Will McClay who is known as one of the best in the business and Jerry has learned to back off and let him do his thing. 

 

 

 

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Today is the anniversary of the signature quote I have used all these years about the Snyder regime.   "Those that know how to succeed know how to NOT make the same mistake over and over again, Dan Snyder said. That's how you succeed, and that's something I've done all my life." Feb. 25, 2001   

 

I wish our owner would realize that Allen is not going to be able to get him the shiny new stadium he wants using taxpayer funds and just let Bruce walk off into the sunset.  It has been 18 years since Snyder gave the above quote to the Washington Post.  His thinking has not changed much at all over the years.  For those who say Snyder has stayed away from football operations over the last few years and let the "football minds" run the show I say I do not believe it at all.  He continues to make the same mistakes over and over again.

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5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I know we aren't supposed to be talking about the dude outside of his thread so I'll keep it brief and then switch it back on topic.  To each their own but I think you are wildly off.  IMO there is no way, they wouldn't have got a first rounder AND change let alone they wouldn't get a first.   Yeah Bradford lands a first and change but not him?   I'll just say you are on an island big time on this point and that even includes the straggler Bruce defenders who are left. 

 

Bradford was under contract and costed the Vikings 25mil for two seasons. Him being under contract and cost effecient were significant to his value. The Vikings were able to acquire what was perceived as a average to above QB at a cost of 7 mil in the 2016 season. The money and contract were just as much the reason for the deal as average Bradford. —Not to mention the unique situation the Vikings were in with losing Bridgewater in off season. 

 

Kirks situation presented nothing attractive financially or contractually to a prospective trade partner. Diminishing is value substantially. It was known Kirks reps were seeking a never before seen guaranteed deal. Just an overall tough and unique situation. 

 

Quote

 

Switching gears and back on topic.  On another note as for compensation picks.  They rarely replace the talent of the player who left.  It's more about shredding salary and adding depth, which alas you got to do from time to time in the NFL.   I've seen stats like this before but to me it speaks more about how difficult it is to land talent in the later rounds. A late third is almost really a 4th.  

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/02/25/robert-kraft-prostitution-charges-sex-trafficking-patriots-nfl-combine-dwayne-haskins-kyler-murray?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=themmqb&utm_medium=social

1. The last few years, the idea of compensatory picks as currency has hit the mainstream to the point where some fans are now viewing the ones given at the bottom of the third round—which is as high as they go—as gold. The truth? Well … Here’s the complete list of players to be drafted with those picks in the last four years:

 

• 2015: Geneo Grissom (Patriots), Steve Nelson (Chiefs), Paul Dawson (Bengals)

• 2016: Graham Glasgow (Lions), Vincent Valentine (Patriots), Rees Odhiambo (Seahawks), Justin Simmons (Broncos)

• 2017: Cordrea Tankersley (Dolphins), Chad Williams (Cardinals), Rasul Douglas (Eagles), Jonnu Smith (Titans), Brendan Langley (Broncos), Nazair Jones (Seahawks), Trey Hendrickson (Saints), C.J. Beathard (49ers), James Conner (Steelers), Amara Darboh (Seahawks), Kendall Beckwith (Bucs).

• 2018: Mason Cole (Cardinals), Jordan Akins (Texans), Isaac Yiadom (Texans), Dorian O’Daniel (Chiefs).

… There are good players in that mess of names, of course. But Conner is the only one of the 22 to make a Pro Bowl to this point. In fact, he’s the only one of 34 third-round comp picks to make it this decade. Which is just something to keep in mind, when you’re weighing whether your team should let a player go, and may be thinking, “Well, we’ll just got a good comp pick back anyway.” Remember, those third-rounders are compensation for the most highly paid free agents. (By the way, the best comp pick of all-time probably will always be the 199th pick in the 2000 draft... I’m sure you guys know who that is.)

 

Whoever put this argument together should include all 7 rounds, just as wild. 

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57 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Kirks situation presented nothing attractive financially or contractually to a prospective trade partner. Diminishing is value substantially. It was known Kirks reps were seeking a never before seen guaranteed deal. Just an overall tough and unique situation. 

 

We should be happy with the 3rd round comp pick -- those national reporters who say otherwise are full of crap. 😀  And we only had one shot to trade him too for that matter.  I've repeated my arguments on said subject a ton including to you and i recall how locked in you are.   I am locked in, too.  So lets agree to disagree or lets take it to the Kirk thread versus debate it here. 

 

57 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Whoever put this argument together should include all 7 rounds, just as wild. 

 

Breer was focusing on the top picks in the third.  I said its GOOD to amass comp picks.  It's not bad.   So not sure what you are challenging.  My point is that rarely you get a player in return that's commensurate with the player you lost especially if its the bigger ones that you get the late third rounders for.   And on occasion you do.  But the point is to shed salary and build depth is the upside MOST of the time.   Yes, there are exceptions.  Heck if I recall Dak was a comp pick. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Breer was focusing on the top picks in the third.  I said its GOOD to amass comp picks.  It's not bad.   So not sure what you are challenging.  My point is that rarely you get a player in return that's commensurate with the player you lost especially if its the bigger ones that you get the late third rounders for.   And on occasion you do.  But the point is to shed salary and build depth is the upside MOST of the time.   Yes, there are exceptions.  Heck if I recall Dak was a comp pick. 

 

More in-depth analysis would provide some more value:

 

cap dollars saved, replacement cost/replacement production, team production, unit success, player success after leaving

 

I understand what you’re saying. Admittedly, I skimmed earlier, my apologies. 

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25 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

More in-depth analysis would provide some more value:

 

cap dollars saved, replacement cost/replacement production, team production, unit success, player success after leaving

 

I understand what you’re saying. Admittedly, I skimmed earlier, my apologies. 

 

with the third rounders specifically, those are driven by players that get big money in FA so those guys typically have had big production too or potential thereof.  Lets take Preston Smith and lets say he gets 10 million a year on the market.  Do I think the following year with a late third rounder to make up for his loss they are likely to land a similar caliber player to Preston?  Nope, I think that's unlikely.   But I don't look at it that way, which is my point.  

 

The thing is with the cap, clearly you can't keep everyone and pay everyone so you have to pick your spots.    So I don't look at comp picks as tit for tat at least not among the third rounders where you lose a guy and count on getting a guy back that's similar.  I look at it more of shredding salary and building depth.  And I look at each player on a case by case basis.  Looking at our current crop, I am ok with losing all three major FAs -- Clinton-Dix, Crowder, Smith.  And all for specific reasons.  But sometimes I don't feel that way.  But just in general am on board with purging in FA with an occasional exception.   For example, I like Crowder but with Quinn already on the roster then they should be able to be ok with him leaving.   Now if Quinn wasn't on the roster considering all their other holes, I might not love the idea of losing Crowder.  Not to get off topic but heard today NE might be interested in Crowder -- if so am confused by that unless they think he can move outside and maybe play Z.    

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Yes, there are exceptions.  Heck if I recall Dak was a comp pick. 

Tom Brady was one.

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Kyle Smith is A.J. Smith's son, and talent guys around the league talk anyways. Whether he's good at his job or not, among the people who matter across the league, he's not a secret. Pretty dumb premise for an article when this entire website of fans harbors hopes/dreams about his potential future and our completely non-plugged-in beat reporters think up that article--proving right there that he's nothing close to a secret. 

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9 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Kyle Smith is A.J. Smith's son, and talent guys around the league talk anyways. Whether he's good at his job or not, among the people who matter across the league, he's not a secret. Pretty dumb premise for an article when this entire website of fans harbors hopes/dreams about his potential future and our completely non-plugged-in beat reporters think up that article--proving right there that he's nothing close to a secret. 

 

I agree but Grant might not have meant it that literally.  And I took the premise of the article as Kyle being really good at his job with the below the radar part of it being used to add to that complement.  Kyle is often below the radar of the national media types for what its worth.  Guys like Breer, Schrager like to do features on up and coming personnel guys, and Kyle from what I noticed is not on their radar.   Heck even a relatively quiet guy like Will McClay from Dallas gets a lot more attention and buzz than Kyle does.   But do insider personnel types know who Kyle is?  I agree with you in that I bet they do big time.  but he's not a guy who gets attention compared to some other FO people.  Does that mean anything?  Don't know.   

 

 Grant's point seems to be governed by the team doesn't really like to let Kyle talk.  And that's unusual.  And are they being smart by keeping him out of limelight by making him a bit less visible.   Scott Campbell would talk from time to time and even do draft type pressers.  The Cowboys, Will McClay, is a behind the scenes type but he still comments on personnel from time to time including getting in the fray about the Dez Bryant release. 

 

I don't have a position on whether its smart or not smart by keeping Kyle mostly away from media interviews.  But I get why Grant could come up with the angle of them keeping him below the radar media wise -- because its true.  Does that have meaning or not?  That's up for interpretation.  But again I think his point was to add to the hype about Kyle, he's so good, that the Redskins want to keep him under wraps as much as possible, etc. 

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18 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

Tom Brady was one.

 

Wow, kudos for digging up that little tidbit. Maybe others knew that but I was not aware he was a comp pick. That means by # of picks he was actually a 7th rd pick! A total afterthought! 

 

Great catch! 

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1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

Wow, kudos for digging up that little tidbit. Maybe others knew that but I was not aware he was a comp pick. That means by # of picks he was actually a 7th rd pick! A total afterthought! 

 

Great catch! 

 

Yep it was though in the same article I posted above where Breer goes:

 

(By the way, the best comp pick of all-time probably will always be the 199th pick in the 2000 draft... I’m sure you guys know who that is.)

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12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yep it was though in the same article I posted above where Breer goes:

 

(By the way, the best comp pick of all-time probably will always be the 199th pick in the 2000 draft... I’m sure you guys know who that is.)

 

I am going to go off the rails here just a bit - but stay with me. It could be argued that Tom Brady is the worst thing to happen to modern football. Hear me out. 

 

Because of finding one the great if not the greatest all time QB in the NFL in the 6th/7th rd (still can't get my head around him being a comp pick), teams approach to QBs has changed dramatically. It literally moved all QBs up several rds for each draft. 

 

You have guys that really should be 2nd day picks are going mid to top of rd 1. 3rd day guys going in the 2nd. Guys that should be URFAs are getting drafted in the middle rounds. All so teams do not get burned by missing the next "Tom Brady" late in the draft. Contracts for journeyman are getting just plain stupid. Guys that should be bagging groceries (ok I had to give a nod to Curt Warner) are getting NFL contracts and even starting in some cases. Is it all due to the = let's call it the Brady effect - no. Nothing is ever that simple. But you can see a definitive shift in how teams pursue QBs since Brady starting winning SBs. 

 

Ok, back to the topic. Bruce sucks...  lol Kidding, well only a little. It does pertain to bruce though. I think that's what drove the crazy Robert trade. And I see him headed down that same direction. 

 

Anyway, it's just a thought. 

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